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Mathijs Kok

Talk to the management? Here's your chance...

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I'm responding here as a long time Aerosoft customer and not as one of the Deputies. I was deeply disappointed in the way the voting system was abused by a small number of users, thereby resulting in its (hopefully temporary) disablement. I fully agree with your rationale for it's use in your December 20 post in this thread, and yet, the toxic atmosphere in the A330 preview forum, as well as a couple of others in the past, made both locking down that thread and the action you took on the voting system the best of some poor options. I've seen the complaints already in this thread about taking it down, but as we all know, no one can make everyone happy, even in a small way.

 

This is likely a pretty discouraging time for you, and may well make Aerosoft as an organization question the decision to be as open as you have been in the past with work in progress. I hope that a review of all the positive posts many have made regarding this openness compared to the few that complain about what they perceive as missed deadlines (when deadlines are not realistic in this kind of software development) will encourage you to reinstate the A330 thread.

 

Final comment, I didn't see the large red banner advising of disabling the voting system until I looked for it. Logically, the top of the page is the best position, but perhaps just under the "banner" could be better since I, for one as a long time user, tend to start looking a bit down the page for things. Just a thought.

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Hi Mathijs,

I couldn't find the post specifically about the A330 forum being closed, so apologies if this is in the wrong place! I just wanted to express my thanks to you and Aerosoft for the time you spend engaging with people on the forums. I also completely understand your reasoning for freezing it. I hope the freeze won't be permanent as I know a lot of us simmers really appreciate being able to discuss ideas, but I agree it was getting a bit bogged down with petulant "when will it be released" posts.

 

Anyway best of luck and best wishes to you and the team, and I will continue to look forward to your updates and the eventual release of the A330, which I'm sure will be well worth the wait!

 

tjf4375

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2 hours ago, Mathijs Kok said:

The A330 forum was closed because it was just a warzone where people tried to get their points across often, often by making fake accounts to get more votings done. It simply was not making sense, it was just upsetting people. The voting topic was closed because I wanted to test the waters and get an idea of what people thought about it. With that information, we already made a decision on how to proceed. The topic, therefore, was not useful. I have never closed a forum because there are posts that I did not like. I can show you 12 years of forum management to proof that.

 

Please keep in mind these are NOT discussion forums, they are part of our marketing and support. If we feel a post is not suitable it is our prerogative to hide it. Those are conditions you agreed to. 

tjf4375, here's Mathijs' post about the A330 forum. It's the notice as well as the reason, so you have the whole picture. Just to be clear, it's simply locked.  So you can still find information, just recently posted for example, about progress.

 

Thanks for your support.👍

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Thanks Herman :) Yes, I recall reading Mathijs's message and I totally understand and agree with his viewpoint. You guys are working hard on creating high quality add-ons, and made the unusual but very welcome decision to engage with your userbase and respond to our concerns. It's such a shame that so often it's the few who ruin it for the many, but I do hope you will find a compromise that enables sensible discussion without leaving you open to constant abuse. There are lots of us who really appreciate your work, and your refreshing approach to customer engagement, so please don't feel disheartened, and please keep doing what you do best! :)

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Dear tjf,  It is slightly disheartening that I feel forced to change our forum setting because of 14 persons. But that is what 2019 is. 

 

I have been a forum moderator for 37 years. From dial-up BBS systems via Compuserve to the current internet. For 29 years I never banned a single person (not one) and in 29 years I removed 11 posts from view. But those were the years where people put their name under a post and had the balls not to hide behind a nick. And those years are long gone. We have to adapt to a world where a few very loud voices will try to get their will.

 

Today they won. They forced us to remove to opportunity for you and other forum users to let it be known what comments make sense and which do not. Somewhere somebody is having a beer and feels smug. We simply do not have the technical means to block what they do. I am still very reluctant to take further steps like PMDG does and force people out of their anonymous status. 99% of our customers are just nice people who believe the hobby is about flying aircraft and not posting messages that are hurtful to other people who work their ass of to get a product done. 

 

But these are NOT public discussion forum, these forums are for our marketing and support, If that is a condition some users are unwilling to accept they did not read what they signed up to. And if there is ever an issue you do not agree with, drop me a mail at mathijs.kok@aerosoft.com.

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28 minutes ago, Mathijs Kok said:

Dear tjf,  It is slightly disheartening that I feel forced to change our forum setting because of 14 persons. But that is what 2019 is. 

 

I have been a forum moderator for 37 years. From dial-up BBS systems via Compuserve to the current internet. For 29 years I never banned a single person (not one) and in 29 years I removed 11 posts from view. But those were the years where people put their name under a post and had the balls not to hide behind a nick. And those years are long gone. We have to adapt to a world where a few very loud voices will try to get their will.

 

Today they won. They forced us to remove to opportunity for you and other forum users to let it be known what comments make sense and which do not. Somewhere somebody is having a beer and feels smug. We simply do not have the technical means to block what they do. I am still very reluctant to take further steps like PMDG does and force people out of their anonymous status. 99% of our customers are just nice people who believe the hobby is about flying aircraft and not posting messages that are hurtful to other people who work their ass of to get a product done. 

 

But these are NOT public discussion forum, these forums are for our marketing and support, If that is a condition some users are unwilling to accept they did not read what they signed up to. And if there is ever an issue you do not agree with, drop me a mail at mathijs.kok@aerosoft.com.

 

Absolutely!  Well said.

 

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Tbh I quite like that only news get posted now. 

 

Not so much: When will it be released blah blah..

 

just my two cents

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Hey Mathijs and team

I too want to echo the sentiment of many and I it saddens me that a "few rotten apples" have ruin things for everyone else that comes to these forums to look at the great progress of what is obvious a much anticipated product. But I get it, as someone that loves siming and loves the Aerosoft Airbus series  i get why you guys have to do this. Nothing is more frustrating for someone that comes to check the progress of a product and is bombarded with such negativity from few. I don't comment much on posts good or bad, but what these post have allowed for someone like me is to learn about Airbus, features that i didn't even think it existed ,  systems in a way that otherwise not possible. But i understand. My comment to Aerosoft and to your team is that you guys are different because of the engagement you guys have with the real customers and potential customers and don't let that change. You guys dont want to be like others who want your "blood type" before your are accepted to their forums. 

Keep up the good work and "real customers" will wait patiently for the bird.

 

Manuel 

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vor 4 Stunden , Mathijs Kok sagte:

[...] I have never closed a forum because there are posts that I did not like. I can show you 12 years of forum management to proof that.

 

Dear Mr. Kok, please look at this:

and this:

Sincerely

John Kunde

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John, I'm afraid I have to respond to you just as Mathijs and Tom did in the threads you cited.  So I won't type it all again for you my friend, mine is the same as theres.

 

I don't know why you think one of the top three developers and also the largest distributor in the flight sim world isn't aware of these surveys (on top of that, developers talk together ALL the time) or the severe problems with the data (that's comes from a certified Quality Control Engineer, though I won't teach a survey or statistics course here so I won't expand on that, you either believe me or don't believe me).

 

But my friend, you really went overboard posting about this three different times, and that makes it appear that you found a survey, no matter how flawed, that support something you want.  Well, we've seen the data, and we've formally responded to you about this twice.

 

I'm going to leave this post, but let's not go off on a tangent either.

 

But you can rest easy knowing that we've seen the data.

 

Best wishes my friend!

 

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Hi Mathijs,

Thanks for your reply, which is really appreciated. I hope I didn't come across as being critical of you or your team; I understand and support your action to suspend the forum. To be honest, I think most trolls don't really think very much about their actions, or how they might affect other people, but I dare say a few very sad people do actually take pleasure in spoiling things for others. They may have succeeded for now, but it's a hollow victory as it's one less platform for their vitriol.

I've enjoyed Aerosoft's products for nearly 20 years now, and hope you will continue doing what you're doing for a long time to come, despite the few who will never be pleased.

Best wishes to you and the team,

tjf4375

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Sorry Dave, but your answer is not very correct / is misleading.

May I correct things?

 

1) I posted these threads in the forum "General discussion" not in "Talk to the management". And I did this because I think this might be in the interest of a lot of flightsimmers.

And I think a discussion about this poll could be in the interest of a lot of simmers.

2) As I remember I restarted the theme only one time, so you may count "twice", not "three different times". I might be wrong, so can you show me the third time?

3) I restartet it, because I wondered that I've got a downvote on it. And because Mr. Kok made the statement "commercially FSX is dead" and I wanted to answer to this and thought it would be interesting to other users to discuss this.

 

As I remembered the threads are normally closed with the remark "for further questions feel free to open another thread" or something like this. So I felt free to open the second thread. Now I see that both threads are closed without this remark. So it's clear that they are closed because there were posts that Mr. Kok did not like?!? This was all I wanted to correct.

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Isn't a survey of Navigraph users somewhat limited? While a lot of Aerosoft customers might use Navigraph, I would say there's also a good chunk of them who don't. If this survey included all those people, I'd bet those statistics would show a much more pronounced move away from FSX.

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John, you know very well from your other posts in other parts of the forum what Aerosoft management's response is to your FSX concern, and raising them in a different thread won't change that. As you've been told, users and customers are not the same thing. The concrete knowledge that Aerosoft has of the buying habits of the different sim communities has also been shared with you. That's what Aerosoft will use to inform development decisions. As Dave pointed out, Aerosoft has seen the data. So there's no point in trying to raise it again in a different thread.

 

Please refrain from continuing this line of inquiry. You have your answer. Thanks!

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Sorry Herman,

may I answer very, very friendly and polite that also your answer is also misleading?

I never wanted to start the discussion about the poll here (today) again. Can you show me a remark from me why you think this?

I only wanted to answer to the statement from Mr. Kok "I have never closed a forum because there are posts that I did not like. I can show you 12 years of forum management to proof that."

 

I want to make clear, that I do NOT want to bother Mr. Kok in any way or to blame him.

I think his answer was given quickly and most of us will agree that we should not count his sentences word by word.

But a lot of people have the impression (they "feel" it), that postings are closed too quickly. They can easily quote examples like I did and so everybody can imagine what they feel. I don't want to express this in words - I think everybody can understand.

 

Do you understand what I mean? I wanted to give an example, that the statement from Mr. Kok was given hastily (this is my personal opinion - you need not to agree to this) and that exactly a statement like this could lead to very, very bad feelings and disappointments in the community.

 

So you and everybody can see, how easily misunderstandings can come up. And therefore I wanted to give Mr. Kok a reflection to what he wrote.

To avoid misunderstandings on this emotional theme in the future 🙂

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John, I understand better now what your current intent is, but as you can see, others saw it as once again beating an old drum. Your answer to Dave certainly reflected that, where you could have responded to him as you did to me, thereby redirecting the focus to Mathijs' statement.

 

To perhaps add some clarity, in your quote of Mathijs, he stated "I have never closed a forum because there are posts that I did not like." My understanding of forum, thread, and Mathijs' long-time practice is what he did in the case of the quoted thread is to close it because it was answered. Not because he didn't like the question. As moderators, we're expected to close/lock threads once answered, so as to provide closure and as an informative tip to others that may be looking for an answer to an issue. In the case of the A330 thread, the atmosphere was decidedly toxic, and was closed for that reason. Do recall that he's the one that opened the thread.

 

So please, let's conclude this issue. Nitpicking, warranted or not, has value in limited circumstances and this isn't one of them.

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Herman, I agree with you that we should stop this nitpicking, as you called it, here and now.

But I think the theme "closing threads" is a very important theme for a lot of people, as I've read often in the past.

I think you should discuss it in the future in a seperate thread, when it comes up again.

Show the people, that you (the team) take them serious, and give room and time to other customers to reply on this theme, not only writing

"I / we have never closed a forum because ..." and thinking that this would be an answer and would let the people calm down.
No - such an answer will push the emotions higher.

I think in a lot of themes there were answers from Mr. Kok (and other team members) not to be taken word by word.
Maybe better to be more cautious in the future.

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17 hours ago, John Kunde said:

Sorry Dave, but your answer is not very correct / is misleading.

May I correct things?

 

1) I posted these threads in the forum "General discussion" not in "Talk to the management". And I did this because I think this might be in the interest of a lot of flightsimmers.

And I think a discussion about this poll could be in the interest of a lot of simmers.

2) As I remember I restarted the theme only one time, so you may count "twice", not "three different times". I might be wrong, so can you show me the third time?

3) I restartet it, because I wondered that I've got a downvote on it. And because Mr. Kok made the statement "commercially FSX is dead" and I wanted to answer to this and thought it would be interesting to other users to discuss this.

 

As I remembered the threads are normally closed with the remark "for further questions feel free to open another thread" or something like this. So I felt free to open the second thread. Now I see that both threads are closed without this remark. So it's clear that they are closed because there were posts that Mr. Kok did not like?!? This was all I wanted to correct.

 

Hey John, and everyone else!

 

In forums, the perception of the writer is often different to varying degrees than the perception of the reader.  A writer posts based on what's rolling around inside their head - things that the readers may not be aware of, so readers see it without the benefit of the thought process the writer had before and while posting.

 

The three posts?  Sure, keeping mind my paragraph 1 (above), you posted two links in a post that because the third post.  Since your post contained the two links about the same over arching subject (the Survey), it because the third time you brought up the survey.  Sure, at the end I picked up on the fact that you were downvoted, but the way you presented it the downvote was a lesser issue over the survey (one post about the downvote and three about the survey, even if you didn't intend it that way). 

 

Now, let me say this, I haven't downvoted a user in well over a year (might have been two or three years) because I believe it sets a bad precedent and it's bad PR for a staff member to downvote a customer or potential customers post.  Besides, I viewed the voting system as something the COMMUNITY should use, not the staff.  But these were my own personal views, and I tried to lead the way quietly by abstaining from using the downvote function.

 

With the above in mind, IF I did downvote posts, I would have downvoted your post about the survey, likely for the same reason that you were downvoted by others. The survey data was like a soggy bowl of cereal, and the results were really next to meaningless. How do I know this?  Because among many other professional certifications in the real, I am a certified quality control engineer and there are few professionals who understand statistics better than quality control engineers.  Garbage in, garbage out.

 

But if I downvoted posts here, the reason would have gone even deeper because those posts came across as you providing proof for something you wanted, but without an regard for the quality of the data and try as I might, my background makes me want to rail against such things.  But I didn't downvote because of my policy not to downvote customer posts.

 

Not only do people misuse the downvote function, but those who are downvoted are often perplexed as to why someone downvoted their post (as Mathijs said all throughout this discussion). This occurs for many reasons, chief among them that people here come from many varied backgrounds, cultures, languages, etc.

 

99.9% of our user base here are terrific, wonderful people and I've had the opportunity to speak (voice) with many of them, some of whom I'm happy have become friends of mine.  And that's where I think I'd like to leave this... that all of us should be here to make friends.  Shoot, flight sim is such a very small and unique community, so we have everything to become friends with one another, and I'm hopeful that our Connected Flight Deck Community which will open later this year, will become the soil necessary for many friendships to bloom.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

 

Best wishes!

 

 

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Hello Dave, why do you write such a long text? I didn't find a single sentence belonging to my theme.

This theme contains two facts:

1.) Mr. Kok has written:

On 16.2.2019 at 18:14, Mathijs Kok sagte:

[...] I have never closed a forum because there are posts that I did not like. I can show you 12 years of forum management to proof that.

(closed a forum = closed a thread, I suppose in this context ?)

 

2.) Within some minutes I gave two links where threads were closed. One by Mr. Kok, one by TomA320.

For me it's obvious (my personal opinion, you need not to agree with this), that these threads were closed because there were posts that Mr. Kok didn't like.

 

And I did explain, that a lot of people had complained very emotionally in the past, that in Aerosoft-Forums the threads are regularely closed "too early". 
(I don't want to complain about this now, I only want to give the facts.)

So _all_ these people could easily give at least one link where a thread was closed, and where _they_ feel (their personal opinion, you need not to agree with this) that these threads were closed, because "Aerosoft" didn't like the posts.

 

So I think Mr. Kok has a problem now, because he has written his two sentences too hastily, as I suppose. I don't want to embarrass him, I only want to show him this problem to give him a chance to react.

 

I for myself don't need an explanation (or excuse?), but I think it could be helpful for a lot of other forum members.

I don't want to turn a molehill into an elephant, but first especially this theme is very hot and second I remember a lot of other similar situations.

 

I only wanted to explain because you have started the theme again. I agreed with Hermann to stop nitpicking, so I don't mind anymore.
But maybe Aerosoft should mind? It's your decision (take it or leave it).

 

I hope this didn't sound too arrogant, sorry, English is a foreign language for me. I hope you see my best intention to help and to clarify things.

 

So everybody have a nice start in the new week, good luck and success on all you are doing
John

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@Tom A320 and guess what, it wasn’t a suggestion, it was a technical question I had and it was about circuit breakers. When the CRJ was in development, I would log in every Friday and read any updates, just like the A330, if I had a question and it was answered, why I would ask it? You’re right. What makes you think everybody is like the rest of these kids at the forums? Kids who actually never ran a Trent 800 engine in their lives or even know how to adjust the seat on an A330 cockpit. I actually took the time to read to find the answer. I know how long it takes to develop software, how difficult it is to get technical information, being a maintenance engineer in real life, airbus limiting information on the A350, I can imagine how difficult is to get info for a project for you guys.  I suggest you read the posts yourself before posting stuff like that in the future, as some questions are genuine. Don’t assume the rest of the people in these forums are annoying kids. 

 

    I actually even suggested to close the forum as well, and you guys replied, “based on customer service we cant do that... line”, guess what? In real life, if you are a ticket agent  and the plane is broken down at the gate, you don’t feed the passengers with info as for them to become antsy, you just tell them, “There’s a technical problem with the aircraft, we will get back to you with information momentarily”. Thanks for shutting that forum, because kids, and not adults, were on it, and what happens when you show a child a piece of candy all the time, but you don’t give to them, they’ll start crying and bitching and be abusive towards you. How precise and complete am I now?

 

Irving 

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Anyway great software, I enjoy the CRJ a lot!

And yeah the voting system sucked lol

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Dears i have a question. 

Is "shame on you" the way you talk with your customers.? 

 

Regards 

Pascal

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20 minutes ago, DriverX said:

Dears i have a question. 

Is "shame on you" the way you talk with your customers.? 

 

Regards 

Pascal

You forgot to link to the relevant topic.

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Here you find the link. 

 

 

 

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