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Flight Plans ALL WRONG


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So, every time I enter in my flight plan in the Proline I ALWAYS get a duplicated STAR and I have to go through and delete all of the duplicated waypoints that the computed created. Ever since this last update its become almost a chore to get plane setup to fly. I'm not the one to complain about the progress of products knowing they're still receiving updates especially in forums or anything really I just wait out the bugs but this plane has been out over a year now and the computer is still subpar at best. I was really hoping in this update for the waypoint routing to be rounded out when you have turns in the flight plan but I still have a flight plan that will give me a literal 90 degree or 180 degree turn to get onto my approach. I know work is ongoing with the FMS and it had to be built from the ground up with this update as well as these things take time to iron out but come on. Before this update the only thing keeping this plane from being great in my opinion was the non-rounding of turns in the flight plan, now with having to go through and essentially delete half the waypoints in my flight plan because they get duplicated for whatever reason after this last update, makes it really hard to start-up a flight and fly this plane. I really hope these issues get patched soon and not another few months before the next update. Also for the record, I have tried multiple different SIDS to see if it was one specific one and it isn't it happens every time, It replicates on every flight

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  • Deputy Sheriffs
55 minutes ago, kvanvolk said:

every time I enter in my flight plan in the Proline

Can you explain what you mean with Proline and what this got to do with the CRJ?

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Otto,

don't you know your own products? :)  Here is just a copy from the description of the CRJ: 

  • Umfangreiches Flight Management System und Honeywell ProLine Avionik inklusive Advisory und Coupled Vertical Navigation

mfg Kai

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  • Aerosoft

Hi Kvanvolk,

Could you please let us know what airac cycle you have and give some example route(s) you have experienced this with (including runway, SID/STAR, transition etc information) You said that it happens for you always on every flight but this is not something that I am able to see on the cases that I have been testing this, so I would need some example cases I could check for myself to check this.

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1 hour ago, Der Merowinger said:

Otto,

don't you know your own products? :)  Here is just a copy from the description of the CRJ: 

  • Umfangreiches Flight Management System und Honeywell ProLine Avionik inklusive Advisory und Coupled Vertical Navigation

mfg Kai

I know the product very well, but as this customer was not very clear in his post for the first time, I felt so free to ask,  just to make sure he is not using a tool also based on "Proline". ;)

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4 hours ago, Secondator said:

Hi Kvanvolk,

Could you please let us know what airac cycle you have and give some example route(s) you have experienced this with (including runway, SID/STAR, transition etc information) You said that it happens for you always on every flight but this is not something that I am able to see on the cases that I have been testing this, so I would need some example cases I could check for myself to check this.

I've seen this multiple times recently using the AARCH2 arrival, VHP transition for KSTL.  Only tried runways 11 and 12L for landing.  I have the latest AIRAC cycle.

 

I wonder if there's something up with when a STAR splits for different runways, as it loads fine until after PETTI.  Once I pass PETTI it tries to go back to AARCH then onward to PETTI, KRIYA, etc., so I have to delete the first AARCH and PETTI waypoints.

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5 hours ago, Secondator said:

Hi Kvanvolk,

Could you please let us know what airac cycle you have and give some example route(s) you have experienced this with (including runway, SID/STAR, transition etc information) You said that it happens for you always on every flight but this is not something that I am able to see on the cases that I have been testing this, so I would need some example cases I could check for myself to check this.

Hello, I am running the current AIRAC cycle released by navigraph (Cycle 2206). The few SIDs that this has happened to me on are the CLIPR2 arrival into KDCA into RWY 19, the KORRY4 arrival for RWY 22 in KLGA, the CHSLY5 arrival into KCLT RWY 18C. The exact routing for those flight plans I will post below. All of these gave me duplicate waypoints. I've tried to put the transition only in either the DEP or Arrival for the DCA-LGA flight because the STAR AND SID use the same transition since the flight is so short and maybe that was causing issues but doing that I also got the same issue. Thank you!

 

KDCA19 SCRAM6 GLANC DCT LYH CHSLY5 KCLT18C

KDCA15 DOCTR5 AGARD KORRY4 KLGA22

KPHL27L DCT DQO DCT BAINS DCT SUDOY CLIPR CLIPR2 KDCA19

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  • Aerosoft

Are you absolutely sure that you are on the very latest CRJ update that was released earlier this week? Version 1.0.17.0.

These issues with duplicate waypoints or leg sequencing problems is the main area of issues we wanted to fix on this update. I just tested all the cases you listed (KDCA-KCLT, KDCA-KLGA, KPHL-KDCA and also the one given by Joe where I used route KDTW/21L BARII2 SINER VHP AARCH2 KCLT/11). They all worked perfectly fine on my side.

About the KDCA-KLGA flight, you can (and have to) insert the transition to both departure and arrival to get the routing on both ends correct. They are different transitions one leading to AGARD waypoint and other leaving from AGARD waypoint. Not choosing one would not cause any other issues than that there would be waypoints missing for that part of the flight.

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24 minutes ago, Secondator said:

Are you absolutely sure that you are on the very latest CRJ update that was released earlier this week? Version 1.0.17.0.

These issues with duplicate waypoints or leg sequencing problems is the main area of issues we wanted to fix on this update. I just tested all the cases you listed (KDCA-KCLT, KDCA-KLGA, KPHL-KDCA and also the one given by Joe where I used route KDTW/21L BARII2 SINER VHP AARCH2 KCLT/11). They all worked perfectly fine on my side.

About the KDCA-KLGA flight, you can (and have to) insert the transition to both departure and arrival to get the routing on both ends correct. They are different transitions one leading to AGARD waypoint and other leaving from AGARD waypoint. Not choosing one would not cause any other issues than that there would be waypoints missing for that part of the flight.

Can confirm that I do have the most recent update released this past week. Let me uninstall and re-install and try one of these flight plans again and see if the issue persists, perhaps I have a corrupted file somewhere? Only reason I haven't done this yet is because my flying buddy also was having the same issue right after updating but it only happened to him for the first flight after the update and has been fine since. I will update after I fresh install.

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  • Aerosoft

Only thing that I can notice myself that we did not get fixed yet on this update is a discontinuity in case the STAR and enroute-to-STAR transition is selected before the arrival runway is selected. In this case it might insert a discontinuity just before the first waypoint of the STAR transition. If runway is selected first before selecting STAR and transition, it will not even give this discontinuity.

I case you are still experiencing this after reinstall, could you please try to record a video while programming a full route so we can see exactly the steps that you take to follow up ourselves if we can then recreate with those exact steps.

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Could it be this issue I reported aaaaaaaages ago that has not been looked at and is somewhere on a list? Easy way to test would be to make sure you EXEC every single change.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, CRJay said:

Could it be this issue I reported aaaaaaaages ago that has not been looked at and is somewhere on a list? Easy way to test would be to make sure you EXEC every single change.

 

 

Hmmm could be possible that this is the issue that is causing the duplication because I don't EXEC until I verify the flight plan. I'm still waiting for the initial load after reinstalling which takes like 15 min the first time so I'll try not doing it this way and see if it works and then I'll try again this way and see if that happens. Will let you know!!

 

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  • Aerosoft

Right, That EXEC thing seems to be key indeed. I was now able to recreate the cases (and also the ESSA-EETN case from the other thread) when loading STAR before the arrival runway and not hitting EXEC in between. Hitting EXEC between selections or selecting the arrival runway before selecting the STAR (and enroute transition) seems to work fine.

It is after all very special sequence of events that have to align right to get into this state. For now the advise is to EXEC the flight plan every once in a while. This in my opinion is a good habit anyways since if you make a mistake and have to cancel the mod, you'll lose all changes and have to start over again from scratch. We'll see what we can do but opening this code again and trying to get this fixed as well could easily turn into another cycle of issues we already had to deal with when getting majority of this to work correctly. And we want to get other areas fixed as well at some point. So it's a trade-off. We'll see.

Also to add on the ESSA-EETN topic quickly. That was known to us and we tried to check that working as well but when I tested this case earlier I think I only tested with loading the runway and transition first before STAR which did not give the issue of duplicate waypoints.

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1 hour ago, Secondator said:

Only thing that I can notice myself that we did not get fixed yet on this update is a discontinuity in case the STAR and enroute-to-STAR transition is selected before the arrival runway is selected. In this case it might insert a discontinuity just before the first waypoint of the STAR transition. If runway is selected first before selecting STAR and transition, it will not even give this discontinuity.

I case you are still experiencing this after reinstall, could you please try to record a video while programming a full route so we can see exactly the steps that you take to follow up ourselves if we can then recreate with those exact steps.

Ok, so after reinstalling and taking into account what CRJay had just said and what you said about selecting the SID/STAR before selecting the runway, I tried both methods. I selected the SID/STAR BEFORE selecting the runway and did NOT EXEC the plan until I fully selected all routing information. That method DID reproduce the issue and gave me duplicate waypoints. I then did the same thing and entered the entire flight plan and again did NOT EXEC until the routing was complete but this time I SELECTED THE RWY FIRST and the flight plan worked fine. I'm assuming the issue is because of selecting a SID/STAR before selecting a RWY as you stated. 

 

So essentially the duplicating of the waypoints ONLY happens when selecting your SID/STAR BEFORE you select your departure or arrival runway. If selecting the RWY first the flight plan loads with no issue for me. 

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2 hours ago, Secondator said:

Also to add on the ESSA-EETN topic quickly. That was known to us and we tried to check that working as well but when I tested this case earlier I think I only tested with loading the runway and transition first before STAR which did not give the issue of duplicate waypoints.

 

A bit offtopic, but would it perhaps be an option to take a bit of time every now and then, to go through some of the topics of the past that may have been checked/worked on, and giving some quick bits of feedback like this? As part of taking steps towards better communication about development. There are quite a few issues documented very clearly* that have never received any feedback other than that it is on the list somewhere (if even that at all).

 

*(I do not count my own thread linked above among those, but for actual examples take a look at some issues posted by @KuntaKinte that rarely got any feedback despite being described in detail and with the correct behavior added for good measure)

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Yes, we need a list!  This way we, the customers, can take heed of the list and where issues are on the list and complain much if we are unhappy with the list. We shall meet every Thursday before the evening meal and talk of the list and move the items up and downward on the list.  After discussion we shall complain again of the list and the changes made.  Once we grow tired of the list, we will add to the list a demand for another list with a timeline.   Aerosoft, stop wasting time working on the list and make a list of what you should have been working on for us to complain about!  The customers demand it!

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38 minutes ago, Crabby said:

Yes, we need a list!  This way we, the customers, can take heed of the list and where issues are on the list and complain much if we are unhappy with the list. We shall meet every Thursday before the evening meal and talk of the list and move the items up and downward on the list.  After discussion we shall complain again of the list and the changes made.  Once we grow tired of the list, we will add to the list a demand for another list with a timeline.   Aerosoft, stop wasting time working on the list and make a list of what you should have been working on for us to complain about!  The customers demand it!

You forgot to bring us...

 

ANOTHER SHRUBBERY.

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19 hours ago, Crabby said:

Yes, we need a list!  This way we, the customers, can take heed of the list and where issues are on the list and complain much if we are unhappy with the list. We shall meet every Thursday before the evening meal and talk of the list and move the items up and downward on the list.  After discussion we shall complain again of the list and the changes made.  Once we grow tired of the list, we will add to the list a demand for another list with a timeline.   Aerosoft, stop wasting time working on the list and make a list of what you should have been working on for us to complain about!  The customers demand it!

I mean. I know you are being facetious but...radiating lists to stakeholders is what you do when you want to get stakeholder feedback. Stakeholder feedback is what you care about when you want to make a product that matches stakeholder expectations. The more feedback you collect, the closer to the mark you are likely to get. It's not a negative thing at all, but it does challenge the assumptions (and ego) of a software development team.

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32 minutes ago, jstnj said:

I mean. I know you are being facetious but...radiating lists to stakeholders is what you do when you want to get stakeholder feedback. Stakeholder feedback is what you care about when you want to make a product that matches stakeholder expectations. The more feedback you collect, the closer to the mark you are likely to get. It's not a negative thing at all, but it does challenge the assumptions (and ego) of a software development team.

I see what you did, you changed customers to stakeholders.  While possibly correct on the fringes of definition, a stakeholder has more skin in the game than a client.  Regardless, the creation of a list will do nothing for customers other than create a focal point of grief.  "My thing is not on the list", "My thing is not high on the list", "I have had this list and not everything on the latest update is fixed and therefore I was lied to".  Quite frankly your list will be different from my list and completely different from someone else's.  I get that it may make you feel good, but feelings don't mean squat.  Let the developers work on the things they are working on.  Honestly, if someone is having an issue that means they CANNOT fly the aircraft, it is a local issue, and no list can fix that.  

 

All you have to do is go read other forums where a list was made and see the 10+ pages of crap that the list caused.  I am going to be very blunt on this.  No one outside of the developer (Aerosoft, PMDG, FENIX etc) has the slightest clue about what should and should not be on the list or can or cannot be.  Feelings are only important to the feeler.  

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Am 27.6.2022 um 21:55 schrieb Crabby:

Yes, we need a list!  This way we, the customers, can take heed of the list and where issues are on the list and complain much if we are unhappy with the list. We shall meet every Thursday before the evening meal and talk of the list and move the items up and downward on the list.  After discussion we shall complain again of the list and the changes made.  Once we grow tired of the list, we will add to the list a demand for another list with a timeline.   Aerosoft, stop wasting time working on the list and make a list of what you should have been working on for us to complain about!  The customers demand it!

This is how "Industries 2.0" are working: A lot of lists and meetings and nothing else is functionally ;)

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On 6/26/2022 at 12:33 PM, kvanvolk said:

Ok, so after reinstalling and taking into account what CRJay had just said and what you said about selecting the SID/STAR before selecting the runway, I tried both methods. I selected the SID/STAR BEFORE selecting the runway and did NOT EXEC the plan until I fully selected all routing information. That method DID reproduce the issue and gave me duplicate waypoints. I then did the same thing and entered the entire flight plan and again did NOT EXEC until the routing was complete but this time I SELECTED THE RWY FIRST and the flight plan worked fine. I'm assuming the issue is because of selecting a SID/STAR before selecting a RWY as you stated. 

 

So essentially the duplicating of the waypoints ONLY happens when selecting your SID/STAR BEFORE you select your departure or arrival runway. If selecting the RWY first the flight plan loads with no issue for me. 

I just flew the CRJ for the first time since the update.  KBOS to KLGA.   I had a similar issue.   In my case I did as I always do when entering the flight plan.   For the arrival airport, I selected the RWY first and then the STAR.   I executed after all the LNAV info was entered, then again after I had the take off / cruise altitude entered.   

 

Also - I know I saw it mentioned somewhere but I can't find it.   How do you get the radar display to appear?  Radar is on, Terrain is selected and showing but no radar data is present.

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