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Best way to update runway during arrival procedure


Gilbnx
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Hi,

Many times when flying into busy airports with VATSIM, ATC might inform me to "expect RWY 25L" or "expect 25R" when I'm already flying my STAR and with possibly a different runway programmed in.

This is all good but when I go into DEP/ARR page and update the runway, clicking Exec will also enter the whole STAR into the FPLAN (which causes next waypoint to be something I already passed) confusing the FMS.

What is the correct way to update an approach to a specific runway when I'm already started flying the STAR?

 

Thanks.

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I believe that is the correct approach but the implementation is buggy. I always get nervous if I have to change my arrival in flight -- you have to be really careful to make sure waypoints aren't duplicated and that you don't get sent backwords. You have to look at all the waypoints on your route and make sure nothing is out of place before hitting EXEC.

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19 minutes ago, Aplato said:

I believe that is the correct approach but the implementation is buggy. I always get nervous if I have to change my arrival in flight -- you have to be really careful to make sure waypoints aren't duplicated and that you don't get sent backwords. You have to look at all the waypoints on your route and make sure nothing is out of place before hitting EXEC.

Yeah... As a "workaround" I am activating Heading before the change, then check for duplicates and back to Nav... Just hope we could switch runways without that workaround :)

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18 hours ago, Gilbnx said:

As a "workaround" I am activating Heading before the change, then check for duplicates and back to Nav... Just hope we could switch runways without that workaround :)

Not an IRL pilot but I dont think what you are describing IS a workaround. I've seen quite a few IRL IFR approach videos where they are engaging HDG mode for this reason. That's part of why some checklist procedures have the 1st officer tasked with matching the next waypoint heading with the HDG bug...so that if things go awry, you can disengage NAV and keep the nose pointed in the right direction.

 

What I do:

 

  1. Set correct heading
  2. Engage HDG mode
  3. Configure approach in the MCDU
  4. review path and delete discontinuities
  5. Set a DIRECT to the cleared waypoint (ATC usually will clear you to the IAF, or just see which waypoint makes the most sense for approach entry)
  6. Reengage NAV and follow the approach around
  7. Pray the localizer captures this time :(
  8. Land
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22 minutes ago, Justin J said:

Not an IRL pilot but I dont think what you are describing IS a workaround. I've seen quite a few IRL IFR approach videos where they are engaging HDG mode for this reason. That's part of why some checklist procedures have the 1st officer tasked with matching the next waypoint heading with the HDG bug...so that if things go awry, you can disengage NAV and keep the nose pointed in the right direction.

 

What I do:

 

  1. Set correct heading
  2. Engage HDG mode
  3. Configure approach in the MCDU
  4. review path and delete discontinuities
  5. Set a DIRECT to the cleared waypoint (ATC usually will clear you to the IAF, or just see which waypoint makes the most sense for approach entry)
  6. Reengage NAV and follow the approach around
  7. Pray the localizer captures this time :(
  8. Land

I guess it makes sense. That reminds me that on the A350 (X-plane), you actually get a message in the CDU asking to use track before the CDU will allow you to Exec a change... Well, I will follow that.

STILL, it will be nice if the CDU/FMS will realize what is my next fix and will only inject changes post that fix to accommodate a change. 

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On 10/10/2021 at 3:29 PM, Gilbnx said:

I guess it makes sense. That reminds me that on the A350 (X-plane), you actually get a message in the CDU asking to use track before the CDU will allow you to Exec a change... Well, I will follow that.

STILL, it will be nice if the CDU/FMS will realize what is my next fix and will only inject changes post that fix to accommodate a change. 

how does it know that you are not being sent on a Vector?  Being taken off the current Star?  No the FMS is doing what it is supposed to do ... While you are doing these new selections the FPL has not yet been changed.... so step through your new STAR and "Pull up" the way points so that you are on the same Leg....have it so that when you EXEC the new Plan it will have the Leg you are on...

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3 hours ago, LesOReilly said:

how does it know that you are not being sent on a Vector?  Being taken off the current Star?  No the FMS is doing what it is supposed to do ... While you are doing these new selections the FPL has not yet been changed.... so step through your new STAR and "Pull up" the way points so that you are on the same Leg....have it so that when you EXEC the new Plan it will have the Leg you are on...

All that is fine but flying on other aircrafts (the B738, Zibo, I think also the A350), while the pilot SHOULD take control on NAV while making changes, the CDU through the FMS on other planes did not add waypoints already passed and in the opposite direction. There is probably a logic for that in the actual airplane to avoid that. Would be good to hear from an actual, IRL CRJ pilot... is changing runway (not changing a STAR) re-injecting the whole STAR plus the new runway procedure with every change? I'd be surprised if it does.

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Even if the "correct" SOP method is to engage heading, make the changes to the flightplan, and then re-engage heading, I would be extremely surprised if this feature (be able to change runway assignment during arrival procedure without having to fix the flightplan manually every time) isn't a function of the FMS.

 

If it wasn't, there would be lots of blowback from operators to Bombardier for not making this a function: lots of real-world US operators operate a CRJ into and out of airports with multiple runways in use (e.g., Atlanta, Detroit, Chicago, Seattle), and if this wasn't a function, there would be an unacceptably dangerous amount of head-down time during a flight-critical phase. It's so easy to make a mistake if it's not automated, and it should be fairly easy to automate.

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4 hours ago, amahran said:

Even if the "correct" SOP method is to engage heading, make the changes to the flightplan, and then re-engage heading, I would be extremely surprised if this feature (be able to change runway assignment during arrival procedure without having to fix the flightplan manually every time) isn't a function of the FMS.

 

If it wasn't, there would be lots of blowback from operators to Bombardier for not making this a function: lots of real-world US operators operate a CRJ into and out of airports with multiple runways in use (e.g., Atlanta, Detroit, Chicago, Seattle), and if this wasn't a function, there would be an unacceptably dangerous amount of head-down time during a flight-critical phase. It's so easy to make a mistake if it's not automated, and it should be fairly easy to automate.

 

It's just a few button presses honestly. Not a big deal in real life. Select the new runway with possibly a new appropriate STAR, it should load in the FMS with a discontinuity before. Then just go direct to whatever waypoint you were cleared to by ATC. It is not a lot of head down time at all. No need specifically to go to heading mode, it will initially just continue as you were cleared before and ATC is not expecting you to comply within 2 seconds. If all you're doing is a runway change, it should not load up any STAR again at all.

 

The main difference is that in real life we brief before, we are usually familiar with the different runways and arrivals and therefore not needing to spend a bunch of time looking for waypoints. Just "oh, we're getting the other runway, let me load that for you".

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6 hours ago, CRJay said:

If all you're doing is a runway change, it should not load up any STAR again at all.

That's my point. I was below FL100 on the last few waypoints on my STAR, I have changed from 25L to 25R in KLAX per ATC request and my STAR got updated as if I approaching its initial waypoint. Airplane started to turn back. Yes I corrected it but workload exists in that phase and I had to scroll down the CDU to find and select the direct to... 

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In real crj you change the runway, make fixes to the star to make sure you are headed to the proper next fix, review downstream fixes to make sure they are correct as well as they could change if the airport turns around.    Then confirm and execute.  In the rw this may occur in the most inconvenient time such as a split in the star.    With this stay on nav mode.    Doing the switch to heading/ or asking for vectors to clean things up would be a backup method in case this process gets balled up.     

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12 hours ago, wwittkoff said:

In real crj you change the runway, make fixes to the star to make sure you are headed to the proper next fix, review downstream fixes to make sure they are correct as well as they could change if the airport turns around.    Then confirm and execute.  In the rw this may occur in the most inconvenient time such as a split in the star.    With this stay on nav mode.    Doing the switch to heading/ or asking for vectors to clean things up would be a backup method in case this process gets balled up.     

Got it. Not trying to beat this dead horse and I will accept whatever implementation it is (the CRJ is an awesome plane as it is and I love it regardless). IRL, will the CRJ's FMS inject *ALL* the STAR points from the beginning of the STAR's transition after your current position/waypoint just because you have changed a runway? I would be surprised if it did but if it does in real life.. OK.

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  • 2 weeks later...

You are correct that for this sim, the functionality of the Fms is not perfect when you make changes to your original plan like reloading or changing the star or “cleaning up” a rnav or precision approach.  And yes it retains fixes behind you on the mfd that should disappear when sequencing and the autopilot gets confused as well if changes are made.    The way I look at it is it keeps you focused on monitoring the flight mode anunciator and taking corrective action if the aircraft is not behaving as it should.   It would be great for another upgrade (Im willing to invest) to the fms (and auto flight mode) to further polish them off.   It is amazing for the price point how well this aircraft has been simulated even at its current state.      

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3 hours ago, wwittkoff said:

You are correct that for this sim, the functionality of the Fms is not perfect when you make changes to your original plan like reloading or changing the star or “cleaning up” a rnav or precision approach.  And yes it retains fixes behind you on the mfd that should disappear when sequencing and the autopilot gets confused as well if changes are made.    The way I look at it is it keeps you focused on monitoring the flight mode anunciator and taking corrective action if the aircraft is not behaving as it should.   It would be great for another upgrade (Im willing to invest) to the fms (and auto flight mode) to further polish them off.   It is amazing for the price point how well this aircraft has been simulated even at its current state.      

Completely agree. An amazing aircraft so far and yes, I assume more fixes will come as we move forward. Besides, the airplane keeps us pilots at the tip of our toes during those regional hops and I find it exciting. I am mixing wide-body, mostly automated flights with CRJ flights and its fun! 

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