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Lost all systems on arrival change again


FoxtrotOstrich
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This is a repost as it appears to have been lost on the old thread but I do believe it needs highlighting as this time I can give more information. Once seen please feel free to delete the old thread.  Heres a run through of what i did and its also visible in the last recorded 5 mins. Wasnt happy with the approach, checked it was in, wanted to add some waypoints, when i tried it didnt add waypoint just deleted the one i was trying to insert between, so i deleted the last few waypoints, entered the ones i wanted that were missing from the arrival then re selected the approach and boom lost systems and screens froze. Exactly the same as before. Was flying from amsterdam to exeter, usding valko5e departure rwy 18l - exeter ils runway 08 with vectors.  i Hope you guys can reproduce this time and find out whats happening https://youtu.be/cPxpRKp6wAE

Also i can reproduce this by just being on the ground at eham before startup, this time removing the last few waypoints then entering "EX" waypoint then trying to enter the arrival once more screenms freeze. It seems at the moment you select the arrival after deleting one from the flt pln it will freeze the systems. Also not sure why its deleting watpoints when qattempting to enter another below.

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Same thing happened to me too this afternoon.

Went to add a HOLD at the first waypoint to the star.  FMS listed 2 waypoints of same name within 60 miles of each other, so wasn't sure which one to choose, so went back to the LEGS page to check on the distance to go to the waypoint. Then when I attempted to go back by clicking the HOLD button again, nothing happened.  Then discovered that absolutely nothing worked any more in the aircraft.  Complete system freeze. 

The aircraft was still flying and descending, as I was at the time, but none of the displays were updating, none of the control panel buttons had any affect, couldn't disconnect the autopilot, engine gauges were frozen on the display too, basically I was just looking at a frozen picture of the whole cockpit.

 

This is the first time that I've flown the CRJ7 since MSFS2020 SimUpdate 6, so I'm thinking that something has broken post update.  Unless I've just been lucky in the past.

 

Please please investigate and develop a fix as this type of complete lockup simply makes the plane unflyable. 

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On 10/24/2021 at 4:05 PM, STUARTH said:

Same thing happened to me too this afternoon.

Went to add a HOLD at the first waypoint to the star.  FMS listed 2 waypoints of same name within 60 miles of each other, so wasn't sure which one to choose, so went back to the LEGS page to check on the distance to go to the waypoint. Then when I attempted to go back by clicking the HOLD button again, nothing happened.  Then discovered that absolutely nothing worked any more in the aircraft.  Complete system freeze. 

The aircraft was still flying and descending, as I was at the time, but none of the displays were updating, none of the control panel buttons had any affect, couldn't disconnect the autopilot, engine gauges were frozen on the display too, basically I was just looking at a frozen picture of the whole cockpit.

 

This is the first time that I've flown the CRJ7 since MSFS2020 SimUpdate 6, so I'm thinking that something has broken post update.  Unless I've just been lucky in the past.

 

Please please investigate and develop a fix as this type of complete lockup simply makes the plane unflyable. 

Bumping my previous post as have not seen any support response to this issue.

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  • 2 weeks later...
4 hours ago, Jonas S. said:

Can you provide exact details of this issue so that we can try step by step to reproduce your issue.

exact details are above i think the only thing thats missing is the flight plan is filled from simbrief. maybe thats why aerosoft hasnt reproduced so far? the easiest way to recreate this is fill in a flight plan from simbrief and then delete the arrival data and change the which arrival was used. As mentioned above by doing this i can recreate on teh ground at eham.

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  • Aerosoft

Hello @FoxtrotOstrich

I was able to recreate this and find the culprit with your video. But details do really matter because the case here is that you manually deleted the last waypoint "HOLD AT EX" which then basically creates completely open flight plan with a leg that goes 2300nm into "no-where" and the F-PLN is basically now missing all the information it would need to correctly formulate the approach routine. In the end, it's never a good idea to manually delete any waypoints from the approach procedure unless you are absolutely sure what you are doing (performing a direct, or getting rid of an unnecessary discontinuity).

Checking your video you seem to have selected ILS 08 approach into EGTE without selecting any transition. With the waypoints you start to enter (D244B) it looks to me that you are looking for some kind of transition into EGTE that goes from GIBSO to EX and then D244B. This transition is preprogrammed into the arrival procedures and can be found under "EX1" transition. So next time if you go to EGTE ARR page (without deleting any waypoints first) and select ILS08 and then scroll down the TRANS list and select EX1 transition, you should get what you are looking for.

Now, it's obivous that the FMC should not really freeze because that would render the FMC completely useless for the remainder of the flight. So I have pointed this flaw out to the developer. However, the FMC was initially not really developed to take this kind of exceptional case into account since it's completely non-standard way of inserting data into the FMC. We'll see if there is anything we can do to prevent this in the future.

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1 hour ago, Secondator said:


Now, it's obivous that the FMC should not really freeze because that would render the FMC completely useless for the remainder of the flight. So I have pointed this flaw out to the developer. However, the FMC was initially not really developed to take this kind of exceptional case into account since it's completely non-standard way of inserting data into the FMC. We'll see if there is anything we can do to prevent this in the future.

Awesome that you recreated it, now ill explain the reason i and im sure all the others that have come across this issue have done so, its because if you change the arrival as it seems to be "the correct way" it creates multiple duplicate waypoints. This is a major issue when on an approach and a VATSIM controller tells you to change the approach last minute, sometimes the flightplan that gets entered is completely unrecoverable. 

 

This isnt a egte exception it happens everytime ive been told my arrival has changed in the aircraft duplicates are created some airports way worse than others. I was looking for another way to change the arrival without creating duplicates when i came across this issue in the first place this video i created was the second time i had reported as the first seems to have lost all traction months ago, as you can see from the 3 or 4 topics by other people on here now i am no longer alone with this issue and more users are coming across it so it really isnt an exceptional case but i am really glad you have managed to re create it as mathias said "We have never been able to recreate this" so its good it can now be tracked by a source closer to the devs, like you say the fmc and all systems should not freeze up like this from a few presses of a button. Hopefully now the issue will be identified and it can get worked out to stop users running into it in future. Thank you for taking the time to recreate the issue.

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  • Aerosoft

Hello @FoxtrotOstrich

 

Duplicate waypoints on the arrival is a different issue. I would like to have a look into that as well to see if I can find any commonalities why this is happening on certain cases. It's something I can also recreate occasionally, but so far have not been able to pinpoint exactly. So if you could point me towards these 3-4 threads that already exists about it, that would be very much appreciated and I will take a look. Also, if you can give some good examples I could check, that would be great. You can open a new thread about this as well and I'll have a look there.

With this exact freeze case, it's fairly clearly connected deleting a missed approach HOLD waypoint. I tested it by deleting all the other waypoints from the arrival except the last HOLD and I was still able to reselect the approach and keep using the FMS after. In general, I don't really see any reason why you would want to delete this last waypoint on the missed approach in this case. Now, like I said, we already both agree that the FMS should not freeze/crash even in this case. But I would still also like to remind that you should be mindful how you actually modify the flight plan and understand how the flight plan is structured and what you are actually trying to achieve with the modification instead of just blindly selecting waypoints and deleting them. But yeah, we'll have a look into this case once we have a chance.

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23 hours ago, Secondator said:

Hello @FoxtrotOstrich

 

Duplicate waypoints on the arrival is a different issue. I would like to have a look into that as well to see if I can find any commonalities why this is happening on certain cases. It's something I can also recreate occasionally, but so far have not been able to pinpoint exactly. So if you could point me towards these 3-4 threads that already exists about it, that would be very much appreciated and I will take a look. Also, if you can give some good examples I could check, that would be great. You can open a new thread about this as well and I'll have a look there.

With this exact freeze case, it's fairly clearly connected deleting a missed approach HOLD waypoint. I tested it by deleting all the other waypoints from the arrival except the last HOLD and I was still able to reselect the approach and keep using the FMS after. In general, I don't really see any reason why you would want to delete this last waypoint on the missed approach in this case. Now, like I said, we already both agree that the FMS should not freeze/crash even in this case. But I would still also like to remind that you should be mindful how you actually modify the flight plan and understand how the flight plan is structured and what you are actually trying to achieve with the modification instead of just blindly selecting waypoints and deleting them. But yeah, we'll have a look into this case once we have a chance.

of course, two are mine unfortunately the video has since been deleted but my thread was the first time it happened and it was at a smaller airport in brasil a while ago as you can see so i cant remember details that well but exactly the same happened although this time when i changed the arrival it looked like a spider diagram with points all over the place so i manually deleted the whole lot and thats when it occured . The other two threads are by other people who have encountered the problem so it would be best to contact them for information. Also you can see people have posted on here to say they have the same problem so again those people would be best placed top help you their end as the information i have given you about my experience is as thorough as i cant make it. In regards to the duplicate waypoints on the arrival being created i have experienced this pretty much everytime i have changed the arrival, i fly mainly to eu airports from/to the UK.

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On 11/13/2021 at 10:00 PM, Secondator said:

Hello @FoxtrotOstrich

I was able to recreate this and find the culprit with your video. But details do really matter because the case here is that you manually deleted the last waypoint "HOLD AT EX" which then basically creates completely open flight plan with a leg that goes 2300nm into "no-where" and the F-PLN is basically now missing all the information it would need to correctly formulate the approach routine. In the end, it's never a good idea to manually delete any waypoints from the approach procedure unless you are absolutely sure what you are doing (performing a direct, or getting rid of an unnecessary discontinuity).

Checking your video you seem to have selected ILS 08 approach into EGTE without selecting any transition. With the waypoints you start to enter (D244B) it looks to me that you are looking for some kind of transition into EGTE that goes from GIBSO to EX and then D244B. This transition is preprogrammed into the arrival procedures and can be found under "EX1" transition. So next time if you go to EGTE ARR page (without deleting any waypoints first) and select ILS08 and then scroll down the TRANS list and select EX1 transition, you should get what you are looking for.

I somewhat absentmindedly deleted the hold at EX just now, but I'd already got EGTE ILS08 via EX1 programmed in ( and visibly correct ) so there shouldn't have been any issues with the next WP - indeed the next WP was EX at the start of the transition. Rather than freezing the aircraft systems like it would have done before when you changed the approach ( actually having tried that again, it still freezes the systems ), this time it froze the entire game. I tried a quick recreation on the ground but the flightplan side of the FMS got in such a strange state I couldn't work out what was going on ( the runway appeared in the FP 2400 miles from the final WP on the approach, for one thing! and the hold button was going to the legs page ). I'll have a go again when it's not early in the morning.

 

Random thought - is removing the last en-route waypoint before an arrival leaving an open end at some critical check instead of reconnecting to the first WP of the arrival? I can see how that might happen.

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Yes...I had similar freeze yesterday and the day before while changing waypoints on approach.  I can tell when things are going bad because the flight paths don't clear and rewrite properly - resulting in flight paths cluttering the screen.  If you see that stop entry and manually fly the plane if you still can.  Further inputs eventually cause freeze of entire system and even the simulator to the point I must kill the application from Task Manager.  My only work around is to set the entire flight from takeoff to landing.  At least this way I'm relatively assured of a completed flight.  Any changes to the approach and you risk freezing the sim and losing an hour or more of flight time - very frustrating.

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  • Aerosoft
10 hours ago, jer029 said:

Yes...I had similar freeze yesterday and the day before while changing waypoints on approach.  I can tell when things are going bad because the flight paths don't clear and rewrite properly - resulting in flight paths cluttering the screen.  If you see that stop entry and manually fly the plane if you still can.  Further inputs eventually cause freeze of entire system and even the simulator to the point I must kill the application from Task Manager.  My only work around is to set the entire flight from takeoff to landing.  At least this way I'm relatively assured of a completed flight.  Any changes to the approach and you risk freezing the sim and losing an hour or more of flight time - very frustrating.

 

Hi, if you could describe the exact steps that you took with the route and waypoints that you removed, we could try to recreate and see what's going on there. 

 

The thing is really that we have noticed that with these freeze cases there are multiple different cases that are unrelated other than that they all cause FMS or sim to freeze. We have already rectified several of them but it's basically trial and error to find more of them. And it's simply impossible for us to try every single combination ourselves. So the feedback and steps to recreate are greatly appreciated so that we can have a look and try to rectify more of these cases.

 

From this thread it's clear that if you have a missed approach that ends in a holding, and you remove that holding (which is the last waypoint on the FPLN page) it will create and endless leg and freeze the FMS when trying to reselect the approach. We will have a look into that like already mentioned. 

 

About the discontinuity mentioned two messages above. It's a known issue. There should not be a discontinuity between the last enroute waypoint and the first waypoint of the STAR if they are the same waypoint. Instead they should all connect nicely and show this waypoint just once. We are planning to improve this in the future updates, once Hans is able to commit more time again for the CRJ from other projects that are going on. But still, these reports don't go unnoticed and we are constantly keeping track and building a backlog of issues and try to prioritize them for future updates. 

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So, I entered the same flgiht plan, ( EGPF/05 NORB1J NORBO UT256 DCS UN864 WAL N862 IPZOL DCT EGTE/08 ) with ILS/08 via EX1, added a hold at EX before the approach on the ground, removed it ( needs deleting from legs as you can't copy the WP of the approach ) with no crash. Readded the hold, took off, waited until we were en-route, deleted it again - once again no crash. Readded the hold & flying it ( incidentally the LNAV flightpath tracking seems a bit worse recently, this is a bit of a zig-zag ).  I think if people are encountering issues they might need to note down what they've been doing in the sim before the flight starts, if anything. This flight was the first thing since starting the sim.

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