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I am still seeing poor performance issues many times and cant pinpoint it. Currently I am in level flight at 20,000 ft, MAX throttles, and only doing 180 kts. TOW is 66172, Fuel is currently 4405 lbs. Is there a patch coming soon to fix all the issues that exist?

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3 minutes ago, vegasjon777 said:

I am still seeing poor performance issues many times and cant pinpoint it. Currently I am in level flight at 20,000 ft, MAX throttles, and only doing 180 kts. TOW is 66172, Fuel is currently 4405 lbs. Is there a patch coming soon to fix all the issues that exist?

Have you noticed the two topics in the FAQ regarding icing effects and performance?

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I think I've read through all of them- I'll take another look. Im not getting icing warnings or anything, and most of my flights are perfect and dont reflect the performance above. Seems kind of random...Thanks!

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14 minutes ago, vegasjon777 said:

I am still seeing poor performance issues many times and cant pinpoint it. Currently I am in level flight at 20,000 ft, MAX throttles, and only doing 180 kts. TOW is 66172, Fuel is currently 4405 lbs. Is there a patch coming soon to fix all the issues that exist?

How do you set your climb? What is your flight model set to? I always run speed mode to 10K, at 250, above 10K to 320, above 25K or so to 290... Also I do this in climb mode, it sounds like you might be using V/S, or possibly have the Legacy Flight model selected? 

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Normally I would set my climb with AP and SPD, starting with 250 kts...When I get above 10,000 I increase SPD to ~270-185 depending on my FL setting. This usually works great but not in this instance. I ended up having to go MAX throttle, climbing at 300 FPM and never got over 185 kts. 

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6 minutes ago, vegasjon777 said:

Normally I would set my climb with AP and SPD, starting with 250 kts...When I get above 10,000 I increase SPD to ~270-185 depending on my FL setting. This usually works great but not in this instance. I ended up having to go MAX throttle, climbing at 300 FPM and never got over 185 kts. 

The normal climb profile for this aircraft is 250 to 10K, and then 290 above that, and mach .74 above 28K.. Try that, and let me know if that helps. AOA can cause you to stall out if you are going too slow.

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1 minute ago, vegasjon777 said:

Sorry- I typed mine in wrong- that should have been 270-285 above 10K. 

Leave it at 290, and let me know how it goes. 

 

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If I were the devs I wouldn't take this seriously because it is admitted that the aircraft isn't flown as per real-world guidelines which the tutorial is based on.

 

All aircraft expect to be flown a particular way in particular conditions to get the best and safest performance. That is why the POH is so important. In flight games that doesn't matter but in anything claiming to be a simulator, it does.

 

1. Why are you using MAX throttle? The correct setting is CLB. I guess you are assuming MAX is better than CLB in every way but do you know that for sure? Sure engine failures aren't modeled so you may be able to use MAX or TOGA all the time at all altitudes but that isn't necessarily true. 

2. 270 is already slow (compared to real world ops). 185 is asking for trouble. Why go so much slower than that recommended by the aircraft designers? You are sacrificing lift for extra drag so it stands to reason performance will be poor. Those speeds are recommended for a reason.

 

Both of those issues do not follow the rules on how the aircraft expects to be flown in real life so in no way is it evidence of a bug.

 

As for my climb profile during my last flight where from memory I was half loaded:

* 250kts to 10k

* 300kts to FL31 - FL35

* VS at 1,500FPS to FL400 - FL410. 1,500 kept me about 20kts under over speed.

 

At that weight with no ice. The 700 has great performance.

 

I found the Mach speed setting to provide poor performance so I went back to indicated. Today's learning topic for me is when to use Mach. Maybe there is an issue there, maybe not.

 

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1 hour ago, Thx1137 said:

185 is asking for trouble. Why go so much slower than that recommended by the aircraft designers?

 

 

They clearly mentioned that 185 was a typo. They meant to type 285.

 

10 hours ago, vegasjon777 said:

Sorry- I typed mine in wrong- that should have been 270-285 above 10K. 

 

And since you mentioned the POH can I ask you why you're using VS at the end of your climb? I've never heard of doing that. In fact at the three airlines where I've operated the CRJ VS mode was strictly forbidden in the climb. SPD mode was always used the entire way. 250/290/0.74. 

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7 minutes ago, Chaxterium said:

 

They clearly mentioned that 185 was a typo. They meant to type 285.

 

 

And since you mentioned the POH can I ask you why you're using VS at the end of your climb? I've never heard of doing that. In fact at the three airlines where I've operated the CRJ VS mode was strictly forbidden in the climb. SPD mode was always used the entire way. 250/290/0.74. 

Oops, I didn't see that it was a typo. Sorry to the OP, that I missed that.  I found a bug but I don't think it is yours unless there was more to it than you describe in your original comment.

 

One other person (I'm pretty sure he was a real world CRJ person) mentioned that for him, VS could be used above FL300, but not below, so I tried it and it climbed fine at about half max weight and there weren't any issues with getting near overspeed or getting slow. I think it is clear that it is more risky than just using SPD mode though.

 

Right now I started off right at max weight and am in SPD mode at Mach .81 and so far it is going OK. My target was FL400 but I can't really get there. I'm at M.74 at 39,000 feet.

 

As for the POH. I was reading two sets of material supposedly taken from a "flight manual" I thought that was a POH but since your query I'm not so sure. I found a copy of some CRJ 700 flight manuals and I can't find anything in there about managing the climb yet. For VS, the flight manual goes on about "capturing a preselected altitude" a number of times which is generic. It also says "Climb or descent rate is achieved by moving the rotary switch on the flight controlpanel.". That to me implies that climb is a proper use for it. Now whether it is allowed by an operator of course is a different question! But nothing about gotchas when using it AFAICS. So maybe "flight manuals" are different to a POH?

 

Since I started writing this, I can recreate an issue. I was flying along fine at FL390. After about 20 mins I thought I'd see if I could get that last 1000 feet. I'm not 100% sure of the sequence of events, but I got an AP disconnect (while typing here so I didn't see what happened unfortunately) and could see I was at 140kts with a high nose and descending.

 

I think there may be two issues:

1. Letting the aircraft get slow on the climb can cause it to stop climbing with a high AOA. I can kind of reproduce this but only as what appears to be a pilot speed management error. I'm sure I read that if you get "under the curve" (I read that as too slow) it won't climb until you can get some more speed up.

2. If we stall I think the AP gets itself into a state where it is hard to recover. I think this is a sim issue. This is the first time I've had it and it was the first time I pushed the AP to get higher than I think the plane wanted to go, just 1000 feet more...

 

Stall recovering was "interesting". I did the following:

1. I'm at 140kts, stalling, so go nose down to pick up a bit of speed, engines to TOGA. It is *seriously* slow to pick up speed so I go to MAX.

2. Start trimming to take yoke pressure off. It was on 15.

3. At FL320 (lost almost 7000 feet!) and 200kts. I'm flying on a very slight climb. The aircraft seems stable with hands off with the nose at around 2.5 degrees.

4. I enable SPD (200kts) and NAV modes. The aircraft goes full pitch UP. Stall. It most certainly was not following the flight director.

 

What appears to be happening is that when re-enabling the AP, the AP trim value at stall is used, not the current trim value. So the behaviour is:

1. The aircraft pitches full nose up to get the current trim back to 15.

2. The trim starts coming down but it can't get to a more appropriate value because the aircraft stalls again.

3. Try again and go back to step 1. Rinse an repeat. First at 200kts the others at 220kts. Each time able to fly with no AP with hands off.

 

I did the above 3 times in a row.

 

On the 4th attempt, I held the nose low at step one using the yoke until the trim came down to around 3 I think it was. All of a sudden there was this quick pitch down, like the AP stopped fighting me. Instantly the AP starts working as I'd expect again.  I was able to use SPD and leveled off at FL390 at M.74 and am continuing the flight. The stench of vomit is rife in the cabin.

 

What the AP was having trouble using SPD mode was a disaster and increasing speed by just 20kts, even level with a 2.5 degree pitch took minutes. It seemed like it was acting as if it was on a climb but it was flying level. So, if the OP stalled first and had this issue, then gaining speed again to continue the climb would seem to be an issue. Hard to know without details.

 

I'll see if I can make a reliable repro with video.

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5 minutes ago, Thx1137 said:

 

 

One other person (I'm pretty sure he was a real world CRJ person) mentioned that for him, VS could be used above FL300, but not below, so I tried it and it climbed fine at about half max weight and there weren't any issues with getting near overspeed or getting slow. I think it is clear that it is more risky than just using SPD mode though.

 

 

Yeah I think I remember seeing that comment and as a former training pilot on the CRJ it made me cringe. The problem with VS mode is that it's too loyal. It will do everything it can to maintain the vertical speed that you've selected which means it will happily sacrifice speed to maintain your VS. It will sacrifice speed to the point of stalling. That's the problem. This is why many airlines forbid the use of VS mode above certain altitudes. SPD mode provides inherent stall protection which is why it is used in the climb. Some SOPs will allow for the use of PTCH mode in the climb if SPD mode produces oscillations while hunting for the speed. This isn't terribly uncommon.

 

The reason the 250/290/0.74 climb schedule is used so ubiquitously is because it is the most efficient. If you find you need to change the speeds drastically in order to climb then something is wrong. Whether it's something to do with your technique, or something is wrong with the sim, or the plane itself, climbing at a speed other than 250/290/0.74 is non-standard. Just for clarity's sake, there are two other climb schedules that are used as well. 250/250/0.74 or 250/320/0.77. The former is used typically if there is an altitude constraint on the SID and you're not confident you'll make it and the latter is used if speed is more important than altitude. At one of my former airlines, the now-defunct Air Georgian, we switched to the 250/250/0.74 schedule because of a constraint on one of the Westbound SIDs out of CYYZ. I hated it. The CRJ is happiest going fast. 

15 minutes ago, Thx1137 said:

As for the POH. I was reading two sets of material supposedly taken from a "flight manual" I thought that was a POH but since your query I'm not so sure. I found a copy of some CRJ 700 flight manuals and I can't find anything in there about managing the climb yet. For VS, the flight manual goes on about "capturing a preselected altitude" a number of times which is generic. It also says "Climb or descent rate is achieved by moving the rotary switch on the flight controlpanel.". That to me implies that climb is a proper use for it. 

 

Yes. VS mode can be used to climb. The CRJ AFCS will do it. But this is typically only used in the lower altitudes. The typical scenario where using VS mode would make sense would be when you are only climbing to a low altitude due to traffic; say for example you've only been cleared to 9,000ft. The CRJ is a rocket ship at the lower altitudes so if you're climbing in speed mode at 250 knots (with CLB power) you are going to be doing well over 3,000fpm which is poor airmanship in busy airspace. For this reason I would often use VS mode and set it to 1500fpm and maintain 250 knots with the throttles. It's nice and smooth and doesn't set anyone's TCAS off. The only other scenario where I would use VS mode was accelerating from 250 knots to 290 after 10,000ft. I would set the VS to 1000fpm and let the plane accelerate. Setting the VS to 1000fpm allows for a descent amount of acceleration while maintaining a nice climb. Once we got to 290 I re-engage speed mode. I preferred doing it this way because when you spin the wheel from 250 to 290 the plane almost levels off in order to gain speed. That's not always ideal in busy airspace.

22 minutes ago, Thx1137 said:

Now whether it is allowed by an operator of course is a different question! But nothing about gotchas when using it AFAICS. So maybe "flight manuals" are different to a POH?

 

You're describing the difference between the Airplane Flight Manual (airline-speak for the POH) and a company's SOP manual. The CRJ AFM may allow for using VS mode in the climb but most company's SOPs forbid it—at least in my experience. I'm open to being proven wrong.

 

With regards to your stall situation, yes, the autopilot will disengage during a stall. Once you reach the point of stick pusher it will disengage. The autopilot basically says "Ok I tried everything. Now it's your turn".

 

And yes, you discovered exactly why stalls at high altitudes are so stressful. This is something we practice in the simulator. The air is very thin so the controls aren't terribly effective. The less dense air means the engines can't produce as much thrust as they do at sea-level. Losing 7000ft during a high altitude stall recovery is not unheard of. Most proficient pilots will lose around 4-5000ft during a high altitude stall recovery. Your procedure was pretty much text book. Lower the nose to break the stall, go right to MAX power. Not CLB. Not TOGA. MAX. We call it fire-walling the throttles. After that, make sure the spoilers are retracted. As you noticed, even doing all of these steps it still takes a lot of altitude to recover. That's normal. 

 

Now as to what you were describing about the plane going full nose up again after re-engaging the AP, I'm not sure what to say there. That should definitely not be happening. Are you sure the Stab Trim was back to a normal setting before you re-engaged it?

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18 minutes ago, Chaxterium said:

Are you sure the Stab Trim was back to a normal setting before you re-engaged it?

Thanks for the post.

 

Yeah, I did it three times in a row. I have video of some of it.

 

That is why I did a hands off test with no AP. So I could be absolutely certain the trim was OK. But as soon as AP was enabled, you can see it climb up until it hits the stops again. As soon as it hits the stops, it starts coming down but not quick enough to avoid another stall. Not unless you force the nose down. The sudden "give" was an interesting part. It is how I expect the yoke disconnect to work, apply pressure then all of a sudden the AP disconnect and the aircraft establishes itself based on yoke position. The issue is that I had the yoke almost full forward while the trim increased to 15 then came back down, maybe 30 seconds? Then the disconnect happened once the trim was near where it should have been. It flew fine again after that.

 

In a nutshell.

1. On a stall the AP SPD mode does not function properly at all no matter the AP buttons I toggle on/off. IE I tried to re-setup all the AP panel to see if a light was on but not actually engaged or something.

2. Enabling AP, even with the aircraft stable, caused the trim to climb to 15 until another stall occurred.

3. Full yoke (Honeycomb Alpha) forward on #2 did not disconnect the AP.

4. On re-enabling the AP in SPD mode, the stab trim insisted on going to 15 before coming down again. No matter the current trim setting (flying level with hands off).

 

For SPD (at minimum) to work again, full stick forward was required until the AP itself moved the trim to the appropriate position. Once there it would disconnect the AP. The AP would then function normally on re-enabling.

 

I think I caused the initial stall while trying to get another 1000 feet, possibly using VS when the aircraft really was already at its ceiling. This is the bit I'm not 100% sure about.

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Most of what you describe is known and most of it is because the flight models inside MSFS are still a bit simplified compared to what were used to in Prepar3D.  We know there is a lot of work going on in this aspect so we believe it will continue to get better.  Of course I am sure Alexander will read your post and comment where needed. 

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3 hours ago, Mathijs Kok said:

Most of what you describe is known and most of it is because the flight models inside MSFS are still a bit simplified compared to what were used to in Prepar3D.  We know there is a lot of work going on in this aspect so we believe it will continue to get better.  Of course I am sure Alexander will read your post and comment where needed. 

 

I'm sure it will get better. That post was not aimed at you guys. It was more just for the benefit of casual simmers.

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From a principal point of view and just to summarize:

The aircraft can be flown with VS and SPEED mode. Typical VS is used up to FL100 to match restriction/targets and passenger comford.

Passing FL100 you can switch to SPEED, dial in 250 or 290 and the aircraft will pitch down to accellerate and then switch over to mach 0.74. You may use also 0.77, if you do not intend to go above FL320, especially when heavy.

Any airline will prescribe in its Standard Operating Procedures (SOP) how the pilots have to fly it, which is taking routes, typical weather and loads into consideration.

As the CRJ has not autothrottle, the possible risk of becoming too slow is eminent with VS climb. But SPEED also has its limits very high up when the air is thin, small pitch changes (the tool to manage speed for the AP) have a strong impact on climb rate and very delayed reactions on speed. That is when a very shallow VS of 500 FPM (300 FPM would be defined as maximum altitude capacity) is a good option, especially in windy conditions. As good pilots, you don't want to fly the aircraft at its limits!

 

Foremost, the CRJ is designed as a Regional Jet with very good climb at low altitudes and limits at high altitude as they are barely needed in 1-2 hrs flights. That is why does not perform well high up, especially when heavy.

 

If you see, that it cannot hold a steady 500 fpm climb, it is time to level off and tell ATC you have reached CLB limitation. Nothing wrong with that, weather and temperature my be the reason for it. Can happen!

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I don't have any issues with climbing, 250kts< to 10k and speed mode, 290kts 10k till 35, 38k Speed ) over 30k climb rate is around 1,000 ft per min. every flight without fail. use anti ice as required.

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4 hours ago, metzgergva said:

From a principal point of view and just to summarize:

The aircraft can be flown with VS and SPEED mode. Typical VS is used up to FL100 to match restriction/targets and passenger comford.

Passing FL100 you can switch to SPEED, dial in 250 or 290 and the aircraft will pitch down to accellerate and then switch over to mach 0.74. You may use also 0.77, if you do not intend to go above FL320, especially when heavy.

Any airline will prescribe in its Standard Operating Procedures (SOP) how the pilots have to fly it, which is taking routes, typical weather and loads into consideration.

As the CRJ has not autothrottle, the possible risk of becoming too slow is eminent with VS climb. But SPEED also has its limits very high up when the air is thin, small pitch changes (the tool to manage speed for the AP) have a strong impact on climb rate and very delayed reactions on speed. That is when a very shallow VS of 500 FPM (300 FPM would be defined as maximum altitude capacity) is a good option, especially in windy conditions. As good pilots, you don't want to fly the aircraft at its limits!

 

Foremost, the CRJ is designed as a Regional Jet with very good climb at low altitudes and limits at high altitude as they are barely needed in 1-2 hrs flights. That is why does not perform well high up, especially when heavy.

 

If you see, that it cannot hold a steady 500 fpm climb, it is time to level off and tell ATC you have reached CLB limitation. Nothing wrong with that, weather and temperature my be the reason for it. Can happen!

 

One of the best posts describing Pitch Over Speed I've seen here in the forums!  Nice work my friend.

 

These are important concepts and operations for pilots / flight simmers to understand.

 

 

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Sweet, I might recommend that it would be good to add a summary of the info in this post to the FAQ. I don't think it was there already. Sorry if I missed it!

I suspect quite a few people have the issue but don't describe it in the same terms so it would be good if members can says "Have a read here...", to get a more concise summary of the above info.

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I've

21 hours ago, Thx1137 said:

Oops, I didn't see that it was a typo. Sorry to the OP, that I missed that.  I found a bug but I don't think it is yours unless there was more to it than you describe in your original comment.

 

One other person (I'm pretty sure he was a real world CRJ person) mentioned that for him, VS could be used above FL300, but not below, so I tried it and it climbed fine at about half max weight and there weren't any issues with getting near overspeed or getting slow. I think it is clear that it is more risky than just using SPD mode though.

 

Right now I started off right at max weight and am in SPD mode at Mach .81 and so far it is going OK. My target was FL400 but I can't really get there. I'm at M.74 at 39,000 feet.

 

As for the POH. I was reading two sets of material supposedly taken from a "flight manual" I thought that was a POH but since your query I'm not so sure. I found a copy of some CRJ 700 flight manuals and I can't find anything in there about managing the climb yet. For VS, the flight manual goes on about "capturing a preselected altitude" a number of times which is generic. It also says "Climb or descent rate is achieved by moving the rotary switch on the flight controlpanel.". That to me implies that climb is a proper use for it. Now whether it is allowed by an operator of course is a different question! But nothing about gotchas when using it AFAICS. So maybe "flight manuals" are different to a POH?

 

Since I started writing this, I can recreate an issue. I was flying along fine at FL390. After about 20 mins I thought I'd see if I could get that last 1000 feet. I'm not 100% sure of the sequence of events, but I got an AP disconnect (while typing here so I didn't see what happened unfortunately) and could see I was at 140kts with a high nose and descending.

 

I think there may be two issues:

1. Letting the aircraft get slow on the climb can cause it to stop climbing with a high AOA. I can kind of reproduce this but only as what appears to be a pilot speed management error. I'm sure I read that if you get "under the curve" (I read that as too slow) it won't climb until you can get some more speed up.

2. If we stall I think the AP gets itself into a state where it is hard to recover. I think this is a sim issue. This is the first time I've had it and it was the first time I pushed the AP to get higher than I think the plane wanted to go, just 1000 feet more...

 

Stall recovering was "interesting". I did the following:

1. I'm at 140kts, stalling, so go nose down to pick up a bit of speed, engines to TOGA. It is *seriously* slow to pick up speed so I go to MAX.

2. Start trimming to take yoke pressure off. It was on 15.

3. At FL320 (lost almost 7000 feet!) and 200kts. I'm flying on a very slight climb. The aircraft seems stable with hands off with the nose at around 2.5 degrees.

4. I enable SPD (200kts) and NAV modes. The aircraft goes full pitch UP. Stall. It most certainly was not following the flight director.

 

What appears to be happening is that when re-enabling the AP, the AP trim value at stall is used, not the current trim value. So the behaviour is:

1. The aircraft pitches full nose up to get the current trim back to 15.

2. The trim starts coming down but it can't get to a more appropriate value because the aircraft stalls again.

3. Try again and go back to step 1. Rinse an repeat. First at 200kts the others at 220kts. Each time able to fly with no AP with hands off.

 

I did the above 3 times in a row.

 

On the 4th attempt, I held the nose low at step one using the yoke until the trim came down to around 3 I think it was. All of a sudden there was this quick pitch down, like the AP stopped fighting me. Instantly the AP starts working as I'd expect again.  I was able to use SPD and leveled off at FL390 at M.74 and am continuing the flight. The stench of vomit is rife in the cabin.

 

What the AP was having trouble using SPD mode was a disaster and increasing speed by just 20kts, even level with a 2.5 degree pitch took minutes. It seemed like it was acting as if it was on a climb but it was flying level. So, if the OP stalled first and had this issue, then gaining speed again to continue the climb would seem to be an issue. Hard to know without details.

 

I'll see if I can make a reliable repro with video.

 

 

I've just had the same experience last night, using SPD mode to climb to FL260, then at around 1000ft from target, speed was slowing down and ATC was asking me why was I descending without clearance(VATSIM). I noticed the speed was barely 140knots, and stab trim was at 14.0. 
I disconnected AP and manually fly the plane and manually trim the stab to a sane position for level flight. 

I then reengage AP on SPD mode to FL260, but it INSTANTLY used the former stab trim 14.0 value. I saw it with my own eyes that it instantly jumps back. HAHA

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ivan Wong CL said:

I then reengage AP on SPD mode to FL260, but it INSTANTLY used the former stab trim 14.0 value. I saw it with my own eyes that it instantly jumps back. HAHA

Yeah, like Aerosoft says though. A known issue with improvements coming someday, I think, from Asobo.

 

As said abouve, just tell ATC that you're unable to get to the assigned altitude. Preferably *before* the aircraft struggles!

 

At least I have the workaround for it now. Push the yoke forward until the trim gets to a more reasonable position and the AP disconnects. All good after that.

 

I only had the issue when pushing the aircraft too far so it isn't one I normally have a problem with because I don't normally fly at altitudes it is too heavy for. It is my job as pilot to know and respect its limitations!

 

I wonder how you can have the issue at FL260 though. I maxed all weights and could get to FL390. It started getting hard to climb at FL370 (climbing at 0 in SPD mode) so I got an extra 2,000 feet out of it. Going for FL400 was what pushed it over the edge. I'd not do this normally but I was testing, I doubt it is something a real pilot would try to do!

 

What was your SPD mode speed set to after 10,000 feet?

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On 4/5/2021 at 10:35 PM, Thx1137 said:

wonder how you can have the issue at FL260 though. I maxed all weights and could get to FL390. It started getting hard to climb at FL370 (climbing at 0 in SPD mode) so I got an extra 2,000 feet out of it. Going for FL400 was what pushed it over the edge. I'd not do this normally but I was testing, I doubt it is something a real pilot would try to do!

The CRJ is rarely flown at FL400 or FL410 unless very lightly loaded. Even FL390 is a bit of a stretch with any significant pax/cargo/fuel load. If you have FlightRadar24, and configure it to display all CRJ700s in flight at a given moment, you will see that most are flying at FL370 or lower - especially as we enter into the spring/summer season when upper level air temperatures are ofter significantly warmer than in winter.  This won’t effect the sim CRJ if you use the default clear sky preset, but definitely can if you use Live Weather.

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