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ardix

traffic patterns suggestions

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Hello pilots, today I've bought this scenery and I have to say that it's great!

I thought about how to manage traffic patterns over the field, and this is my idea (just a draft).

andraspatterns.png

Main Runway 09/27

Pattern altitude on downwind is 3500 ft qnh (1000 ft agl)... base and final according to obstacles. This pattern is designed for single engine pistons (PA28,C172) and small multi engines pistons aircrafts (BE58). For faster aircrafts, it would be better to extend downwind (especially for rwy 27, turning base after passing the cableway).

I think that pattern only NORTH of the runway is a MUST, because we have gliders and seaplanes south of Andras Airport.

rwy 09: left hand traffic pattern

rwy 27: right hand traffic pattern

Glider Runway 10/28

I don't know which is the standard gliders traffic pattern altitude, so I put 1000 ft agl max.

Pattern only south of the runway. I need to think about the "corridor" to permit gliders leaving and reaching the area.

rwy10: right hand traffic pattern

rwy28: left hand traffic pattern

Water Runway 17/35

Rwy 17: takeoff only

Rwy 35: landing only

I think this is the only way to let seaplanes coexist when there is other traffic north of the water runway.

Helicopters

This is a big problem. We have many solutions such as:

1. helicopters will fly like airplanes, so airtaxi and takeoff on rwy 09/27... same traffic patterns as airplanes.

2. helicopters will contact tower/unicom before departure (because "heli-plots" are located along rwy27 approach path), then they will follow the heli route, max 500 ft agl.

Other stuff

I need to think about standard VFR reporting points (called for example NORTH, SOUTH, etc), to permit traffics to safely join the various Andras Field traffic patterns. So work in progress :D

Guys, let me know if what I wrote are lots of bullshits, or if I could continue my "work" and propose new stuff here.

I hope my english is understandable, I'm an italian atpl student pilot and I like flying with fsx. Hope my ideas could be useful.

Regards.

Diego aka ardix

PS Didn't considered ifr traffics, because procedures don't exists at this moment.

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Hi Diego!

This looks very good, and I would, if I were you, get this through to the board. Although all these thinks are still in development (the board is not yet created), I think you did a great job here for the airport and the owners. :D Well done!

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Hi Diego,

nicely done. Should work that way.

Nevertheless I see some things to improve.;)

Glider traffic pattern:

Gliders are extremly dependent on thermals, so they need some space to find them and they also aren't able to fly this pattern because they might have to shortcut if they are running out of altitude.

My suggestion is to establish a glider area. We could use your glider pattern for the borderlines (but it might be a bit small). Due to the water below there won't be a lot of nice thermals, but that's the problem of the geographical situation of the airfield.

If a glider wants to leave his area, he has to be above a certain altitude, which will not interfere with the other traffic. Might be 4000 or 4500ft (500 or 1000ft seperation to SEP/MEP pattern)

Normally the glider entry will be as well entered from above, but if there are some gliders coming back from a long flight which are low on altitude, they will have to ask the Tower (if we get a CTR) or report their intentions on frequency and make position reports on a regular basis.

Water runway:

As I don't think there will be glider traffic at the airport all the time, all runwaydirections could be used, as long as there is no glider traffic.

What do you think?

Best regards,

Gregor:D

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Hey Diego,

Thanks for the effort you put into this. It looks like it could really work. I couple of things I would consider is making published entries into the traffic patterns for everyone. Also consider that every other aircraft operating around the field has to give way to the glider traffic. So we need to make a published entry and exit especially for gliders. Also consider the use of "tow planes" for the gliders; and what their procedures should be. I don't think the seaplane ops should be defined as you can only takeoff in this direction ... I think it will all go back to people announcing their intentions on CTAF, and pilots be aware and responsible. Otherwise you have a great plan here, I would be willing to help you with anything if you have any questions.

~Holton

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Hi Diego,

nicely done. Should work that way.

Nevertheless I see some things to improve.;)

Glider traffic pattern:

Gliders are extremly dependent on thermals, so they need some space to find them and they also aren't able to fly this pattern because they might have to shortcut if they are running out of altitude.

My suggestion is to establish a glider area. We could use your glider pattern for the borderlines (but it might be a bit small). Due to the water below there won't be a lot of nice thermals, but that's the problem of the geographical situation of the airfield.

If a glider wants to leave his area, he has to be above a certain altitude, which will not interfere with the other traffic. Might be 4000 or 4500ft (500 or 1000ft seperation to SEP/MEP pattern)

Normally the glider entry will be as well entered from above, but if there are some gliders coming back from a long flight which are low on altitude, they will have to ask the Tower (if we get a CTR) or report their intentions on frequency and make position reports on a regular basis.

Water runway:

As I don't think there will be glider traffic at the airport all the time, all runwaydirections could be used, as long as there is no glider traffic.

What do you think?

Best regards,

Gregor:D

Yes, you're right about thermals, my idea of this pattern was only for coming back to the field, not to find thermals (I know that over water it's not good XD)... The problem is that, here in the scenery we use winch launch, I don't know how this works in real life. I mean, here in Italy we often use air tow, so you leave the area safely, following the towplane, that will realease you in a good area for thermals, not so far from the field.

What happens with winch launch in real life? The glider will try to achieve altitude over the field? Please explain, I don't know how it works :)

Glider area could be a good idea, but there isn't a lot of space (water south and runway north).

About water runway, I don't know... well, I think that not only gliders are the problem, but also runway 09/27. Because final rwy 17 may cross final rwy 09, it's not so easy to fly so close IMHO... imagine one PA28 landing on rwy 09 and a DHC2 landing on rwy 17... mmm I'm not sure it's safe.. But I have to try flying the pattern with fsx to know the truth. Obviously (as you said), with flying gliders, we can't do nothing XD.

However I don't know average wind directions over Andras Field, maybe these are EASTH/WEST winds, so it's not a problem for seaplanes to takeoff from rwy 17 and landing from rwy 35; they will only experience crosswind. Correct?

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Hey Diego,

Thanks for the effort you put into this. It looks like it could really work. I couple of things I would consider is making published entries into the traffic patterns for everyone. Also consider that every other aircraft operating around the field has to give way to the glider traffic. So we need to make a published entry and exit especially for gliders. Also consider the use of "tow planes" for the gliders; and what their procedures should be. I don't think the seaplane ops should be defined as you can only takeoff in this direction ... I think it will all go back to people announcing their intentions on CTAF, and pilots be aware and responsible. Otherwise you have a great plan here, I would be willing to help you with anything if you have any questions.

~Holton

I agree with you.

But I think that we can't fly a custom towplane route, also with aerotow (I may be wrong.. maybe they updated it).

My idea of one way takeoff is for the busiest situation: gliders and general aviation traffic. It's obvious that without them, seaplanes could land also on rwy 17: BUT how to manage this?

I didn't understand how the multiplayer part of this project will develop.... Private multiplayer server? Ivao or Vatsim virtual tower?

I often fly on IVAO, but I don't know if this is a good idea for every person... and it's surely impossible to have an atc online 24/7. I also think that unicom frequency 122.80 it's not enough for operations over the field, assuming that there will be lots of traffics. We could need a dedicated frequency, also with atc offline, but I don't know if this is possible. Mmmm UTOPIA?!

If we choose IVAO, VATSIM guys will be not happy... lol it's so difficult to organize this stuff. I think that Aerosoft need to explain their opinion about Andras Field multiplayer.

Bye

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Basically it is just like what you said. You will be launched by a winch which is standing at the end of the glider runway. With our runwaylength of about 3500ft (1067m) the gliderplane will have an approximate height of about 1000 ft (300m) up to 1640 ft (500m) AGL at the end of the runway depending on type, weight and windconditions. Then you will look out for your thermals. If you don't find any, you will be back at the ground approx. 5 minutes later, so you have to stay pretty close to the field.

The runway is also sufficient for towplane-takeoffs. I would suggest to coordinate with the main traffic and join the northern traffic pattern to gain altitude and leave the airfield, because the gliding area will be too small.

The towingplane then can use the normal traffic pattern for its return and simple extend the baseleg and then turn on final for the gliding field.

The problem with the crossing waterrunway isnt that much of a problem, I have flown on real uncontrolled airfield with crossing runways and a lot of traffic, even with some commercial flights with no problem. All we have to do is to make our callouts, keep everybody advised and stuck to the published flightpath. (of course it should be allowed to extend downwind for traffic seperation [incoming IFR or slower traffic ahead in pattern] but it has to be communicated.)

In addition to that we could say, that all watertraffic stays south of the mainrunways centerline. It will have to be drawn in the charts of course.

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Basically it is just like what you said. You will be launched by a winch which is standing at the end of the glider runway. With our runwaylength of about 3500ft (1067m) the gliderplane will have an approximate height of about 1000 ft (300m) up to 1640 ft (500m) AGL at the end of the runway depending on type, weight and windconditions. Then you will look out for your thermals. If you don't find any, you will be back at the ground approx. 5 minutes later, so you have to stay pretty close to the field.

The runway is also sufficient for towplane-takeoffs. I would suggest to coordinate with the main traffic and join the northern traffic pattern to gain altitude and leave the airfield, because the gliding area will be too small.

The towingplane then can use the normal traffic pattern for its return and simple extend the baseleg and then turn on final for the gliding field.

The problem with the crossing waterrunway isnt that much of a problem, I have flown on real uncontrolled airfield with crossing runways and a lot of traffic, even with some commercial flights with no problem. All we have to do is to make our callouts, keep everybody advised and stuck to the published flightpath. (of course it should be allowed to extend downwind for traffic seperation [incoming IFR or slower traffic ahead in pattern] but it has to be communicated.)

In addition to that we could say, that all watertraffic stays south of the mainrunways centerline. It will have to be drawn in the charts of course.

Perfectly understood!

Only one question, is it possible to simulate the towplane flying the pattern? (with Aerotow or other stuff).

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Don't know. Never flew a glider in FSX.:blush:

Anybody else?

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Perfectly understood!

Only one question, is it possible to simulate the towplane flying the pattern? (with Aerotow or other stuff).

yes, there is a tool called "aerotow", just google it and you will find it.

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The visual reference points on the patterns look pretty good for VFR flying.

As for the glider pattern: quite a large portion of the pattern is over water (usually no lift). With the old wooden gliders it might get difficult to find a thermal after winchlaunch as you have to stay close to the pattern and the areas to find lift are limited to the land areas at the east and west corner of the pattern. It might be worth a consideration to add a "house thermal" in one of those regions to increase the chances for older gliders to climb out.

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Possible update:

2 glider areas east and west of the grass runway.

Seaplanes area only over water.

andraspatterns.png

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Possible update:

2 glider areas east and west of the grass runway.

Seaplanes area only over water.

andraspatterns.png

Will be pretty tough getting the Catalina of the water runway with tail wind.

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And keep in mind, that during winter, Forggensee, especially Illasbergsee (the part where aour seabase is located) could look like this:

32826020.jpg

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I think that the suggestion supplied by ardix is the best available solution to the complex situation we have on our hands here, with three runways so close together (The ordinary one, the water, and the glider)

I also think that ardix´s suggestion that the water runway will be one way, so rwy 17 is takeoff, and rwy 35 is landing, is the only safe way of conducting the water traffic.

I know that the concerns are that heavy aircraft can have problems taking off from the water in bad wind conditions, but could someone please find out how the wind is mostly at the site? I cannot connect to wetter.de at the moment but we got to be able to find out this.

But regardless of the wind, I still say that ardix´s proposition is the most logical. WITH one amendment. Namely that an aircraft who cannot take off in condition present at the time of departure, can ask the tower to be cleared for take-off the opposite way - takeoff from rwy 35. the tower must then make sure that the traffic on rwy 9/27 is clear.

As for winter - let winter come, and as Mathijs showed - mount skies on the aircraft - and we are in business.

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I would say that we in the beginning use Both runways for takeoff and landings for seaplanes. We just need to make some reporting positions around the area so people know where the planes are.

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I think that the suggestion supplied by ardix is the best available solution to the complex situation we have on our hands here, with three runways so close together (The ordinary one, the water, and the glider)

I also think that ardix´s suggestion that the water runway will be one way, so rwy 17 is takeoff, and rwy 35 is landing, is the only safe way of conducting the water traffic.

I know that the concerns are that heavy aircraft can have problems taking off from the water in bad wind conditions, but could someone please find out how the wind is mostly at the site? I cannot connect to wetter.de at the moment but we got to be able to find out this.

But unless the wind is north something like 75 pct. of the time, I still say that ardix´s proposition is the most logical. WITH one amendment. Namely that an aircraft who cannot take off in condition present at the time of departure, can ask the tower to be cleared for take-off the opposite way - takeoff from rwy 35. the tower must then make sure that the traffic on rwy 9/27 is clear.

As for winter - let winter come, and as Mathijs showed - mount skies on the aircraft - and we are in business.

Thanks Ole for your opinion.

Regards.

Ardix

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I would say that we in the beginning use Both runways for takeoff and landings for seaplanes. We just need to make some reporting positions around the area so people know where the planes are.

Having aircraft taking off to the north, and landing FROM the north - crossing both the standard 9/27 rwy, and the glider area is not a good idea. The idea of doing this "in the beginning" is not my idea of ideal planning. Once a thing like this gets standard, its not so easy to break.

So I say that we say southern takeoff and northern landings for water based aircraft.

What say Sebastiaan? He is the manager for the water traffic.

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Depending on the congestion of the airport, I do not see a significant issue with water traffic departing and approaching from the north. A decent controller should be able to keep spacing without issue and direct IFR traffic around such situations and advise VFR traffic of any impending or dangerous conditions. I do see "some" issue with restricting the direction of takeoff on the water runway, especially for a heavily loaded aircraft with a tailwind. It could become more of a risk factor than necessary and I suspect many exceptions would have to be made. Having flown on servers and acting as ATC in similar situations (crossing runways of differing lengths to suit particular traffic sizes), I never ran into dangerous situations unless someone was simply unskilled, or not paying attention, which is the case in almost every incident in the first place.

I think however our largest concern would be the interaction between water traffic and gliders. A glider cannot divert or do an aborted landing/go around. Glider traffic should and will get first priority in such situations, whereas water traffic can be diverted.

I could however see NOTAMS being posted during events like fly-ins where water traffic may change due to heavy congestion to help reduce workload for the controller(s). Further issues could also be reduced by restricting the hours of water operations.

... of course, all if this would change if the airport was not controlled 24/7, unless you are comfortable having people rely on the MK1 eyeball. In this case, there are two options:

1) Restrict water runway use to a specific direction during hours when there is not a controller

or

2) as mentioned above disallow water operations during the hours when a controller is not present.

....Some food for thought.

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Everyone.

Sebastiaan (Seaplane Director) and myself have discussed this matter, and we have decided that we are going to have a restricted take-off and landing on the water runway.

Seaplanes taking off have to use runway 17 (south) and seaplanes landing have to use runway 35 (north)

We believe that the exceptions to the take-off situation - planes unable to take-off due to weight, and headwind, will be quite few.

Planes needing to be granted such an exception, due to the above described problems, have to ask Sebastiaan for permission to do so, and can be granted a northern take-off, AS AN EXCEPTION, and only after the situation have been cleared with the tower, with the Online Director or myself.

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Everyone.

Sebastiaan (Seaplane Director) and myself have discussed this matter, and we have decided that we are going to have a restricted take-off and landing on the water runway.

Seaplanes taking off have to use runway 17 (south) and seaplanes landing have to use runway 35 (north)

We believe that the exceptions to the take-off situation - planes unable to take-off due to weight, and headwind, will be quite few.

Planes needing to be granted such an exception, due to the above described problems, have to ask Sebastiaan for permission to do so, and can be granted a northern take-off, AS AN EXCEPTION, and only after the situation have been cleared with the tower, with the Online Director or myself.

My idea is now a rule. Nice... XD

;)

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Agreed with Ole,

No takeoffs to the north. Only after special permission given by me.

Sebastiaan Jansen

Seaplane Base Manager

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post-29837-12795808011_thumb.jpg

As regards to the pattern on the airport at andras field as by the picture i agree with pattern apart from i carried out my own tests and found that the pattern height of 3500msl is a little low

if you happen to over fly on either approach the hills at either end are very close. I would surgest that the pattern height be 4000ft msl. This way you are clear of any terrain and sets you up nicely

on a 3 degree glide slope to the threshold. For the vfr pattern any way ifr usually with jet aircraft i would surgest 5000ft msl.

these are just my thoughts and experiences

regards

Craig

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