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We will get new recording very soon...


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6 hours ago, Reald said:

They should ask SimAcoutics to make a soundset for the TWOtter.

 

What makes you think they have access to a Twin Otter? See the problem is not technical, the problem is access. 

As the Twin Otter has such a specific sound internally (because it has next to no sound dampening and a lot of loose alu panels) making a recording of an aircraft with the same engines, as would work on most cases, does not do the trick.

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2 hours ago, Mathijs Kok said:

 

What makes you think they have access to a Twin Otter? See the problem is not technical, the problem is access. 

As the Twin Otter has such a specific sound internally (because it has next to no sound dampening and a lot of loose alu panels) making a recording of an aircraft with the same engines, as would work on most cases, does not do the trick.

Dear @Mathijs Kok, do you think it will be possible for you to gain accesse to new recordings, or do you doubt it will be possible? For the time being I'm using a soundpack I have bought and a mod and with that I think the Twin Otter is a great aircraft to fly with.

 

Best regards Jan

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5 hours ago, Mathijs Kok said:

 

What makes you think they have access to a Twin Otter? See the problem is not technical, the problem is access. 

As the Twin Otter has such a specific sound internally (because it has next to no sound dampening and a lot of loose alu panels) making a recording of an aircraft with the same engines, as would work on most cases, does not do the trick.

Well i don't know if they have access or not to a TWOtter but maybe we should ask them. We never know.....

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5 hours ago, janjoensson said:

Dear @Mathijs Kok, do you think it will be possible for you to gain accesse to new recordings, or do you doubt it will be possible? For the time being I'm using a soundpack I have bought and a mod and with that I think the Twin Otter is a great aircraft to fly with.

 

We have written to every operator in Europe and while most reply very kindly, none wants to have us around to make the recordings. It's not a financial affair because we simply pay for the use, but as we desire some rather peculiar things (like full take-off power, with prop power settings, without moving for a few seconds) most don't want it.  Of course most aircraft are simply booked solid.

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32 minutes ago, Mathijs Kok said:

 

We have written to every operator in Europe and while most reply very kindly, none wants to have us around to make the recordings. It's not a financial affair because we simply pay for the use, but as we desire some rather peculiar things (like full take-off power, with prop power settings, without moving for a few seconds) most don't want it.  Of course most aircraft are simply booked solid.

Hi Mathijs, I believe you are overthinking this. Refine what you already have. There are lots of improvements that could be made by just adjusting and balancing what is there. These third party mods also show that you can achieve a good (not perfect) engine sound without any new recording. Your cost to fix this would be probably much lower, issue would be fixed and off the table. And if you really want to provide a perfect sound package, there would be nothing blocking this in the future when an opportunity to record appears. Dragging this situation forever is causing more damage and stress than it seems necessary. Just my 2 cents. 

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Hi Mathijs

Even though the outcome of this is not what we all want, it's so gratifying to hear this extensive reply and I, at least, thank you very much.  Let's hope someone (in an appropriate position) will come forward, and work with you to help resolve this, or another solution becomes apparent, but at least it's really good to see this is not a closed book and AS are continuing to develop this product. Thank you for elaborating.

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9 hours ago, Mathijs Kok said:

 

And your two cents are seriously appreciated. Honestly.

 

The simple fact however is that the sounds we got delivered simply do not cover the complete range of sound we need. It is not a matter of skill or knowledge. The source we need is simply not there.  You will see so with the A330, same people, different input, We have hundreds of source files for that project. From the engines at full power, to every single switch on the flight deck.

 

In the Twin Otter project we had to work with the material we could get from Turbine.  While I asked several times to get (and pay) for the original recordings, they were simply not willing to part with them. If we had those recordings the problems would all be solved in three weeks. Note I do not blame them for not parting with original material (yet I wonder who else they can sell the derivatives to). The simple fact is that the only sounds we could get were the same sounds we used in the P3D version. There are simply no other sources available. 

 

Now if it was a question of skill, heck I would be willing to pay a small fortune to have somebody work on them. But these files are in the sound pack and many people HAVE tried to make them 'better'.  In our opinion none of the tweaks actually makes a lot of sense. Most flatten the sounds to get the problematic steps less obvious. But while doing so the highly characteristic sound is gone. Personally I rather hear a few steps and get the right sound... extremely loud if you do not wear a NC headset. But it is clear many customers, very very few actually flew in a Twin Otter and can testify it is not a sound but an assault on your ears, believe it should sound different.  Not to say the construct is good (again, we simply do not enough data), but most tweaks change the sound into that of a King Air (that has a lot of sound dampening and the engines in front of the pilots) or a Piper Cheyenne (again with the engines in front of the pilots) that use the same engine but serve totally different purpose. In those aircraft the designers tried to isolate the engines from the passengers.

 

Look at this screenshot.

image.png

 

The red area is where the props (they make 75% of the noise) send the majority of the sound waves. That is what the crew hears. So if people say the sound is not realistic in cruise (so not while changing power settings) I kindly ask them how much experience they have  listening to the Twin Otter on the flight deck.  It is totally an utterly different from what you hear from the last row of seats. And while in an aircraft most of our customers have flown in there will be sound isolation and dampening, in the Twin Otter there is 6 mm of aluminum plate and some cardboard. 

 

Here is a Cheyenne:

image.png

No crew or passengers there.

 

Or a King:

image.png

No crew or passengers there. And that, combined with the fact a Twin Otter is designed with zero thought of the passengers or crew, makes HUGE difference. 

 

And no, I am not saying our sound set is perfect. The sounds we have are damned good, the people, we ask for advice, the real pilots, confirm that. The problem is we do not have enough sound files to make the transitions smooth.  That is why we are looking for an opportunity to do a full recording!

 

Now, if you have some serious hours as a pilot on the Twin Otter and you feel you could add some data, by all means contact me on mathijs.kok@aerosoft.com. If you think a Twin Otter sounds like a Quest Kodiak, Pilatus PC-6, Texan II, Super, Shorts 360, Starship, Tucano or an Embraer, I actually prefer you not contacting me. All of these MSFS DLC have been suggested to us as examples on how it should sound and none of these are even close to how a Twin Otter sounds on the flight deck. 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the extensive reply. It makes sense to me. and I hope we get these recordings at some point.

 

To be honest, I reinstalled the Otter after the latest update (was very frustrated with the invisible spoiler and not flying it at all before the update). Something changed, maybe it is the SU10 beta, not sure, but the plane is more stable now, a bit heavier... I like it and I am now able to land it again. I am having fun and in the end that is what matters to me.

 

Regarding the sound, I was using one of the mods, but reverted back to the original and I have to say it is better with the original. The mod I had was removing a lot of the other sounds in the cabin that make the whole thing more immersive. The engine sound in the mod didn't have the broken transitions, but it was flat and bland, missing some depth. The weird transition is still there in the original, but the experience, as a whole, is better.

 

Anyway...thanks again for the detailed reply, really appreciated. 

 

Daniel.

 

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I can understand the customers, for the customers it looks like Aerosoft just put the Twin Otter aside. 
But I can assure you that this is not the case. 
The topic with the sounds was discussed internally again only recently. 
Unfortunately Aerosoft is also waiting for the better sounds, and they are trying everything possible to get better sounds. 
Unfortunately, Aerosoft can only use what they have.


I as a customer am still happy to be able to fly the Twin Otter. 
Except for the current sounds it is a great machine, and really fun to fly.
And let's be honest, price performance is really good at Aerosoft. 

On the subject of airports, they are always great class.
 
Greetings Sven 

 

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Thanks for the information / explanation, Mathijs. I've flown the Twin Otter (in the sim) quite a lot and have really enjoyed it - including the sounds for the most time. And yes, I've noticed the steps but it doesn't ruin the experience for me and I enjoy that it is load. It's unfortunate that this issue is regularly used to fuel the flames or even attack you personally. So I've wondered if it would be possible to give the user the option to select an alternative sound setup during installation for those who prefer the unrealistic / flattened sounds. Might relieve the pressure a bit until you, hopefully, get the opportunity to get a new recording.

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On 7/18/2022 at 5:20 PM, meierzwo said:

Yes, the Subscription is enough for all Sound Mods. And you can cancel the Subscription.  It depends on you, if you want to pay a ongoing monthly Donation but it's not needed.

I think, this Mod will work with the Store Version of the Otter. My Twotter Version is a direct buy from Aerosoft. The Mod is placed in the Community Folder and survives Updates of the Twotter. The Twotter is also linked in the Community Folder. The Installation Documentation for this Mod says to move the aerosoft-aircraft-twin-otter Folder to /Official/Steam or /Official/Store but that was not needed for the Aerosoft Direct Buy. Placing the Mod into the Community Folder was the only thing to do.
I did just a short Flight around my Home Airport without the Mod and, gosh, I forgot how bad the original Sound Set is. Sounds goes off, Sounds kick in without Transition between the Sounds. Crazy Sounds with Reverse and Flare. I quickly installed the Mod back. Invest the 2 Euro and get them. It's the best you can do for a better Experience with the Twotter.

 

P.S. By the Way, anyone knows if the Version 1.01 still is the latest Version of this Mod?

 

Just did it. It works indeed by just putting the sounds in the community folder. No big difference between the payware one and the freeone, so may be AEROSOFT should advice people to get the free sound rather than their records with very bad transitions. For me the mod sounds look like not enough loud and a little bit lack of relief. But transitions are fine not like the Aerosoft ones.

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Pascal Bourgeois:

 

For me the mod sounds look like not enough loud and a little bit lack of relief. But transitions are fine not like the Aerosoft ones.

It depends a little bit on your Sound Setup and Speakers. I use one with a Subwoofer.

Comparing the Mod with this short Startup Sequence, the Mod is not perfect but close to the Original.

 

 

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There are a lot of other Vids on Youtube.

And yes, I know. Not filmed or recorded with Professional Equipment. But you can here the small differences in Sound when changing RPM from the Turbine or the Probs. Or Probs not in Sync. It's not only the Volume. To hear all this little changes, we do not hear with the original Sound Set, that makes the difference.

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Thank you, Mathijs, for the explanation. Maybe you are right that most customers just want to hear something they expect. Not something realistic.

 

I can only speak for myself, and I expect it realistic. But that's not the important point here, because - as you stated correctly - next to all customers have no experience in what is realistic in the crew deck. So I couldn't be disappointed by how unrealistic it is. I just wouldn't know. I have been on a Twin Otter, but only as a passenger.

 

The thing was, from the first flight to the last one (which was the second flight), that it was simply impossible for me to overhear all those technical shortcomings. It just felt like I was listening to an audio file playing in the background, unconnected to what happened in the simulator. It was the audio equivalent to a prop not being visually attached to the engine. Compared to that every mod, however unrealistic, is always better, as long as it's technically unsuspicious and somewhat "attached" to the plane.

 

Their seems to be an order of importance here: At first come the technical aspects ("Immersion", not "Disruption"), then it should be believable for the random person on the passenger seat. Then it should be realistic (not unimportant, but third priority). As I see it, Aerosoft has delivered only on the second priority. Now forstalling the first by chasing the third priority might not be the best tactic.

 

Having said all that, I am grateful that you are still willing to overcome whatever hurdles there are to create an "attached" AND realistic soundscape. There are a number of customers out there who are still patiently waiting ... and waiting ... 😉

 

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Mathijs,

Thank you for taking the time to write a detailed reply to explain the problems you face with the soundset.

 

That being said, I wish to throw my name in the "I'd rather have a properly mixed, non immersion breaking generic turboprop sound than a signature Twin Otter sound but with awful transitions" hat.

As you've mentionned, 99.99% of us have never flown a Twin Otter and we couldn't tell if it's a perfect or not, true to life propeller pitch sound in the sim on our cheap headsets, but we will have the immersion ruined by steps in sound pitch or very bad transitions, like in the current state of the Twin Otter.

 

As far as I'm concerned, your Twin Otter may not even remotely fly like the real one, but it "feels coherent" with the idea I have of a plane like a Twin Otter. And I'm fine with that. Same goes with sounds. If it doesn't sound like an F18, a Cessna Skyhawk or a B-24, it will be convincing enough. Even if they were just recycled King Air 350i sounds, you know?

 

So I would opt for a better mixing, even if the sound is not true to life, and/or flatter.

Someone suggested the option to choose between two of your sound mixings, the existing one, and a smoother though flatter one, so it won't break immersion but still sound "turboprop-ish". Choice is always good, for a customer.

 

I also understand your wish to have it sound as close to the real one as possible, but it really looks like you're sacrificing a lot of customers' expectations on the altar of your own satisfaction with the individual sound recordings instead of the global flight experience for us. I'm a software developer myself (though I'm under no illusion that we're doing the same work, in difficulty, ofc) and I sometimes encounter project managers that would rather push for their favorite feature to be delivered first instead of one the customers really need and use in real life and have asked and are waiting for. And it's infuriating.

This time I'm on the customer side, so I'm voicing my concerns and my priorities regarding this product that i've paid for -- in full, by the way --, six months ago, despite it being clear to you before the release that the sound job was either incomplete, unsatisfactory or not up to your personnal standard. And it was not announced as a work in progress, nor an early access product.

 

So as a TL:DR for this rambling, i'd say i'd rather have a better "mixed" soundset with smooth transitions and that I care less for the accuracy of the soundset, I don't need it to be a perfect Twin Otter experience, just a close enough and not immersion breaking one.

 

Thanks for reading me so far and good luck.

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7 hours ago, Andrei56 said:

Mathijs,

Thank you for taking the time to write a detailed reply to explain the problems you face with the soundset.

 

That being said, I wish to throw my name in the "I'd rather have a properly mixed, non immersion breaking generic turboprop sound than a signature Twin Otter sound but with awful transitions" hat.

As you've mentionned, 99.99% of us have never flown a Twin Otter and we couldn't tell if it's a perfect or not, true to life propeller pitch sound in the sim on our cheap headsets, but we will have the immersion ruined by steps in sound pitch or very bad transitions, like in the current state of the Twin Otter.

 

As far as I'm concerned, your Twin Otter may not even remotely fly like the real one, but it "feels coherent" with the idea I have of a plane like a Twin Otter. And I'm fine with that. Same goes with sounds. If it doesn't sound like an F18, a Cessna Skyhawk or a B-24, it will be convincing enough. Even if they were just recycled King Air 350i sounds, you know?

 

So I would opt for a better mixing, even if the sound is not true to life, and/or flatter.

Someone suggested the option to choose between two of your sound mixings, the existing one, and a smoother though flatter one, so it won't break immersion but still sound "turboprop-ish". Choice is always good, for a customer.

 

I also understand your wish to have it sound as close to the real one as possible, but it really looks like you're sacrificing a lot of customers' expectations on the altar of your own satisfaction with the individual sound recordings instead of the global flight experience for us. I'm a software developer myself (though I'm under no illusion that we're doing the same work, in difficulty, ofc) and I sometimes encounter project managers that would rather push for their favorite feature to be delivered first instead of one the customers really need and use in real life and have asked and are waiting for. And it's infuriating.

This time I'm on the customer side, so I'm voicing my concerns and my priorities regarding this product that i've paid for -- in full, by the way --, six months ago, despite it being clear to you before the release that the sound job was either incomplete, unsatisfactory or not up to your personnal standard. And it was not announced as a work in progress, nor an early access product.

 

So as a TL:DR for this rambling, i'd say i'd rather have a better "mixed" soundset with smooth transitions and that I care less for the accuracy of the soundset, I don't need it to be a perfect Twin Otter experience, just a close enough and not immersion breaking one.

 

Thanks for reading me so far and good luck.

Yes, I agree. It is the transitions and that the sound in some strange way doesn't feel to be really connected to what you as a I pilot do, that is the problem. 

 

I have had the opportunity to fly the Twin Otter. Not on flight deck, but on the first seat row with the doors to cockpit open, in Vancouver on Westcoast Air's sea twotter. I don't remember the sound as extremely loud as it is now in the AS Twin Otter, but it might be very different when you actually sit on the flight deck. (I am by the way hoping that some day Aerosoft will produce the Vancouver Sea plane base and add a few other sea plane ports in British Columbia. Would be perfect for sea plane operations with the Twin Otter). 

 

I have tried both the Turbine sound studios mod and the FTSim mod and they are more as I remember it, with the Turbine Sound being a bit better I think (however TSS mod doesn't seem to work after the latest update of the Twin Otter?). And those mods might not be on the spot how the Twin Otter actually sounds on the flight deck, but it atleast the mods makes it more fun to fly with. The original AS sound mix feels, well, more strange.

 

So until new recordings are made, which I really hope can be made, I also think a new reasonable sound mix would be better for the time being.

 

Yesterday I flew with the Twin Otter between nice islands in Greece. So beautiful and such a nice aircraft!

 

Best regards Jan

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  • 2 weeks later...

So in light of this very thorough explanation as to why the new recordings are not available, would it not be sensible to revisit the question of releasing non-sound related fixes instead?

 

Or is the position to never release another patch for this plane because the audio is unavailable?

 

MSFS development marches on unabated, new prop physics, CFD etc.  Is the Twotter destined to languish in its current state because of the audio, or do we just draw a line under the audio issue, and address that when possible while continuing to work on things that can be improved right now as there are no external blockers?

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So the new prop model means we don’t need the hidden spoiler any more, or it was the reason we needed it?

 

But the question remains: do we get any enhancements now, or do we continue to wait for a sound update that isn’t coming?

 

Have AS abandoned this plane, and moved on to other things?  If so, I wouldn’t expect warm a reception from existing customers. 

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On 8/6/2022 at 10:55 AM, HobAnagerik said:

Have AS abandoned this plane, and moved on to other things?  If so, I wouldn’t expect warm a reception from existing customers. 

 

The last update was only 20 days ago, why do you now think it is abandoned?

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In Canada theres a lot of operators

On 5/30/2022 at 12:04 PM, Mathijs Kok said:

Still problematic, we are still negotiating with two companies who use Twin Otters.  The main problem remains that there are simply very few in Europe and that it simply can't be replaced by another aircraft with the same engines because the internal sounds are simply much louder and in a different pitch due to the thin panels.

On 5/30/2022 at 12:04 PM, Mathijs Kok said:

Still problematic, we are still negotiating with two companies who use Twin Otters.  The main problem remains that there are simply very few in Europe and that it simply can't be replaced by another aircraft with the same engines because the internal sounds are simply much louder and in a different pitch due to the thin panels.

 

Come to Canada ...

Air Inuit 7     Canada
Air Labrador 5     Canada
Air Tindi 5     Canada
Aklak Air 1     Canada
Alberta Central Airways 2     Canada
Kenn Borek Air 11     Canada
North Wright Airways 2     Canada
Provincial Airlines 6     Canada
South Nahanni Airways 1     Canada
Summit Air 3     Canada
Transwest Air 4     Canada
Westcoast Air 2     Canada
West Wind Aviation 4     Canada
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On 8/7/2022 at 7:23 PM, Mathijs Kok said:

 

The last update was only 20 days ago, why do you now think it is abandoned?

Sorry, I was thinking more long term.  You had previously said that you weren't going to be sending out any more updates until the audio issues were resolved, which prompted me to ask, in light of no sound source forthcoming, whether that would mean no more updates at all.

 

I'm glad to see you have rolled back on that decision, and I look forward to further updates from you.

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Mathijs,

 

Do you know when the Otter update from July will appear on the MSFS Marketplace?  The last one I've seen is from March 29.  I know I'll never buy another plane from the Marketplace. . . 

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