Jump to content

Navigraph navdata transition multi selection


Recommended Posts

Hi,

 

after updating the navdata with navigraph there are for some approaches several entries for the same transition.

 

The problem is, that if I select one entry of the transition, that is listed multiple times, all entries are selected and the flight plan is messed up. 

 

Im pretty sure it’s a bug, but it would be nice to see if anybody else can confirm it. 
 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • CRJ Forum Moderator
5 hours ago, Ferkelchen said:

Hi,

 

after updating the navdata with navigraph there are for some approaches several entries for the same transition.

 

The problem is, that if I select one entry of the transition, that is listed multiple times, all entries are selected and the flight plan is messed up. 

 

Im pretty sure it’s a bug, but it would be nice to see if anybody else can confirm it. 
 

 

Which specific approach and transition? I will check.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for checking.

It was the "ILS RWY 06" approach with "DIK" transition at "ELLX" Luxembourg. I will append a Screenshot.

I had the same behaviour at other airports too, but as I flew so much the last days, I only remember ELLX. I will have a look into my Simbrief history. When I find more examples, I will add the info here.

 

 

Transitions.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

For EHRD you have an approach with ROT transition for CAT A & B aircraft and one for CAT C&D aircraft. Basically the same approach but with a bit wider (or narrower) turn towards final. Same applicable to ELLX.

 

For now you can only see the difference between the two on your map, if you are lucky. In the naming in the FMC it is not very clear indeed. Do not know if it’s also in real life?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Thijs010 for your explanation.

 

I thought of something like that being the reason for the same transition showing up more than once. 


But the big problem is that it’s not possible to select just one of the entries with the same name. There are always all of the transitions with the same name selected. You can see it on the screenshots I appended. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes so hopefully Navigraph wil take care of the issue. Or, that’s why I asked, if it’s also like this in real life: how do the CRJ pilots cope with this?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I really hope someone can help and answer your question.

It would be nice too, to see if the multi selection only happens to me or if anyone can confirm this behavior. 
 

In my opinion, there are now four possible scenarios:

 

1. Navigraph issue:

There are never multiple transitions with the same name in the navdata and therefor the multi selection isn’t a factor anymore, because it just can’t happen. 

 

2. CRJ issue:

It’s correct that there are transitions with the same name and you should be able to select just one of them. 

 

3. Navigraph & CRJ issue

There are usually no transitions with the same name, but the CRJ should be able to select just one anyways. 

 

4. No issue at all:

There are transitions with the same name and if you select one, the CRJ selects all of them at once and you have to manipulate the flight plan. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • CRJ Forum Moderator

This problem appears to be specific to the Navigraph database for the CRJ.
 

Using the supplied Aerosoft NavDataPro database, at ELLX ILS06, it shows discrete transitions based on the DIK VOR marked DIK, DIK 2D and DIK 2Q, and each can be selected individually without selecting them all at once.

 

I have verified that the transitions at LSZH ILS34 based off of GIPLOL and RIKAX are correctly shown in the default Aerosoft database but not in Navigraph.

 

Although we support the use of Navigraph as an alternative to the Aerosoft database, any errors like this are something that only Navigraph can correct, and would best be addressed to them on their own support forum.

  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • CRJ Forum Moderator

Update: I did post at Navigraph about the problems at ELLX and LSZH with multiple transitions all identified the same way. Richard and his team are usually quite responsive to issues like this, so hopefully a solution can be found.

  • Thanks 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • CRJ Forum Moderator

Update to the update: Richard at Navigraph has already identified the problem, and a revised version of the Navigraph CRJ database will be forthcoming in a few days that will fix these problems.

  • Thanks 4
  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, thank you very much JRBarett for checking, explaining, getting in contact with Navigraph and solving the issue 👍
 

I think this topic can be closed.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • CRJ Forum Moderator
6 minutes ago, Ferkelchen said:

Wow, thank you very much JRBarett for checking, explaining, getting in contact with Navigraph and solving the issue 👍
 

I think this topic can be closed.

I’ll leave it open until we can verify that the new version is working properly.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope Navigraph is solving this in general. Or do we need to report this per airport? Like EHRD that was mentioned above as one of the arrivals that look similar in name... 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • CRJ Forum Moderator
1 hour ago, Thijs010 said:

I hope Navigraph is solving this in general. Or do we need to report this per airport? Like EHRD that was mentioned above as one of the arrivals that look similar in name... 

No, apparently the underlying problem has a common root cause at all airports where there are multiple variations of a transition off of one initial waypoint.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...
  • CRJ Forum Moderator

Update: For those who use the Navigraph AIRAC database in the CRJ, the problem with multiple approach transitions having the same name has been solved, and the fix will be included in the next AIRAC update (cycle 2105) which should be available from Navigraph on May 21st 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like you to program the following route and verify if this is a Navigraph problem and/or a CRJ 700 problem. 

 

Route: KORD-(RW 28R) DCT MOBLE DCT ADIME DCT SEWTO DCT FWA GUNNE4 (APE Transition to RW28L)-KCMH.

 

I use PILOT2ATC's flight planning (and SKYVECTOR) for both MSFS 2020 and XPlane 11 and this route works properly.

 

For the APPROACH the CRJ loaded the following: APE HABOP (P-TURN) (INTC) CFBSD HABOP RW28L. I have no idea what HABOP or CFBSD are. The correct sequence should be: APE VUZLI BKEYE LMITD RW28L

 

I think this is a CRJ issue and/or how AEROSOFT interprets the Navigraph data. I think the Navigraph data is correct as this route works with other simulators, aircraft and flight plan software.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • CRJ Forum Moderator
7 hours ago, rwilsonlj said:

I would like you to program the following route and verify if this is a Navigraph problem and/or a CRJ 700 problem. 

 

Route: KORD-(RW 28R) DCT MOBLE DCT ADIME DCT SEWTO DCT FWA GUNNE4 (APE Transition to RW28L)-KCMH.

 

I use PILOT2ATC's flight planning (and SKYVECTOR) for both MSFS 2020 and XPlane 11 and this route works properly.

 

For the APPROACH the CRJ loaded the following: APE HABOP (P-TURN) (INTC) CFBSD HABOP RW28L. I have no idea what HABOP or CFBSD are. The correct sequence should be: APE VUZLI BKEYE LMITD RW28L

 

I think this is a CRJ issue and/or how AEROSOFT interprets the Navigraph data. I think the Navigraph data is correct as this route works with other simulators, aircraft and flight plan software.

It is important to understand that the default CRJ does not use a Navigraph database - the free database that comes with the aircraft is from Aerosoft NavDataPro, which is a similar service to Navigraph. The difference is that the Aerosoft database is sourced from LIDO (a subsidiary of Lufthansa) while Navigraph is sourced from Jeppesen.

 

Both databases are equally good, and both are fully compatible with the CRJ, but if you want to use current nav data you would have to subscribe to one service or the other.

 

The database that comes with the CRJ is from AIRAC cycle 2102, and was valid from 25FEB to 24MAR of 2021. The current database is cycle 2105, which is valid from 20MAY to 17JUN of 2021.

 

Even though the default database is only 3 months old, as it happens, you have chosen an approach (KCMH ILS 28L) that has recently been re-designed by the FAA.

 

Three months ago, when the CRJ was released, the approach waypoints you see for KCMH IKS 28L were, in fact, correct, with a procedure turn at HABOP, then CFBSD. If I load this approach with the default 2102 database, I get the same result you did.
 

The new approach went into effect on 21 April with new waypoints VUZLI, BKEYE and LMITD. The waypoints HABOP and CFBSD have been eliminated and no longer exist in the US national airspace system. When I load the approach using the current Navigraph 2105 database, it is depicted correctly.

 

This is one reason why it is important to keep your nav data up to date if you use current charts. If you are already a Navigraph subscriber, you can download and install an updated database for the CRJ. Alternatively, you can subscribe to Aerosoft’s own NavDataPro service. 

 

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Deputy Sheriffs

And to add: when you use a flightplanner, you have to make sure that you use the same cycle in your aircraft and the flightplanner.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/24/2021 at 7:54 PM, JRBarrett said:

It is important to understand that the default CRJ does not use a Navigraph database - the free database that comes with the aircraft is from Aerosoft NavDataPro, which is a similar service to Navigraph. The difference is that the Aerosoft database is sourced from LIDO (a subsidiary of Lufthansa) while Navigraph is sourced from Jeppesen.

 

Both databases are equally good, and both are fully compatible with the CRJ, but if you want to use current nav data you would have to subscribe to one service or the other.

 

The database that comes with the CRJ is from AIRAC cycle 2102, and was valid from 25FEB to 24MAR of 2021. The current database is cycle 2105, which is valid from 20MAY to 17JUN of 2021.

 

Even though the default database is only 3 months old, as it happens, you have chosen an approach (KCMH ILS 28L) that has recently been re-designed by the FAA.

 

Three months ago, when the CRJ was released, the approach waypoints you see for KCMH IKS 28L were, in fact, correct, with a procedure turn at HABOP, then CFBSD. If I load this approach with the default 2102 database, I get the same result you did.
 

The new approach went into effect on 21 April with new waypoints VUZLI, BKEYE and LMITD. The waypoints HABOP and CFBSD have been eliminated and no longer exist in the US national airspace system. When I load the approach using the current Navigraph 2105 database, it is depicted correctly.

 

This is one reason why it is important to keep your nav data up to date if you use current charts. If you are already a Navigraph subscriber, you can download and install an updated database for the CRJ. Alternatively, you can subscribe to Aerosoft’s own NavDataPro service. 

 

Thanks for the reply. Just FYI, I have a Navigraph subscription and the 2105 database was installed. Just to be sure, I reinstalled the Navigraph database and it now shows 2105 REV 3. Just now I loaded the Working Title CJ4 in MSFS2020 and entered this route in the FMS. It loaded properly so I know the Navigraph data is correct. I then loaded the CRJ500 and entered the same route. It loaded the approach incorrectly as before and in addition, it loaded the GUNNE4 arrival twice.

 

I am confused when you say the "default" CRJ does not use the Navigraph database. This seems to be confirmed with the above exercise. Is this correct? If so, do you plan to enable the CRJ to use the navigraph database?  If I am doing something incorrectly, please let me know what to do to correct it. If not, I would respectfully ask for a refund. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • CRJ Forum Moderator
1 hour ago, rwilsonlj said:

Thanks for the reply. Just FYI, I have a Navigraph subscription and the 2105 database was installed. Just to be sure, I reinstalled the Navigraph database and it now shows 2105 REV 3. Just now I loaded the Working Title CJ4 in MSFS2020 and entered this route in the FMS. It loaded properly so I know the Navigraph data is correct. I then loaded the CRJ500 and entered the same route. It loaded the approach incorrectly as before and in addition, it loaded the GUNNE4 arrival twice.

 

I am confused when you say the "default" CRJ does not use the Navigraph database. This seems to be confirmed with the above exercise. Is this correct? If so, do you plan to enable the CRJ to use the navigraph database?  If I am doing something incorrectly, please let me know what to do to correct it. If not, I would respectfully ask for a refund. 

 

The CRJ is, and always has been fully compatible with the Navigraph database. I was just pointing out that the default database that comes with the CRJ when purchased is the Aerosoft version from February.

 

When you say you installed the “Navigraph database”, did you download the installer specifically for the “Aerosoft CRJ Professional”, or are you referring to the the Navigraph beta nav data for MSFS itself? The CRJ needs its own database. Since you already are a Navigraph subscriber, you can get the CRJ database at no extra charge.


If you did run the CRJ-specific Navigraph installer, it did not install the database in the correct location. If you are still seeing the waypoints HABOP and CFBSD the February Aerosoft database is still definitely active. Those waypoints do not exist at all in the 2105 Navigraph database. The way to tell is to look on the initial status screen of the FMS when the aircraft first powers up. If the active dates for the database shows 25FEB to 24MAR then the FMS is still using the original Aerosoft database.

Link to post
Share on other sites
vor 9 Stunden , rwilsonlj sagte:

Thanks for the reply. Just FYI, I have a Navigraph subscription and the 2105 database was installed. Just to be sure, I reinstalled the Navigraph database and it now shows 2105 REV 3. Just now I loaded the Working Title CJ4 in MSFS2020 and entered this route in the FMS. It loaded properly so I know the Navigraph data is correct. I then loaded the CRJ500 and entered the same route. It loaded the approach incorrectly as before and in addition, it loaded the GUNNE4 arrival twice.

 

I am confused when you say the "default" CRJ does not use the Navigraph database. This seems to be confirmed with the above exercise. Is this correct? If so, do you plan to enable the CRJ to use the navigraph database?  If I am doing something incorrectly, please let me know what to do to correct it. If not, I would respectfully ask for a refund. 

To load the Navigraph AIRAC into the CRJ you will need to run this:

 

 

1862BA3C-A39C-47E6-B420-77AFADD1C3E3.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just loaded AIRAC 2105 using the Aerosoft specific downloader from Navigraph. If this was in the manual, I missed it. It loaded properly except for duplicating the arrival. I moved the second FMA transition and overwrote the first one and then I had 3 arrivals. I re-entered the arrival again from scratch and then it was OK. Not sure what is happening here. Another dumb question, how do you change the settings to get the aircraft to load cold and dark instead of having to set it after it loads?

 

Thanks to all for the assistance. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...