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Zimmi

CRJ Pro Version 2.0.0.3

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Hi

 

I did use the CRJ 700/900X and it did fly pretty OK the DEP from Rwy 28 in LSZH to GERSA. Maybe it should turn left before KLO02 and BREGO insteed of after overfly this Points. Anyway, I could deal with this. Now I did update (very fair update Price) to CRJ Professional.

 

The CRJ Pro dont fly any more the DEP from Rwy 28 in LSZH to GERSA correct. In Dependency of Speed, the higher the Speed, the more incorrect lateral.

In SPD Mode during climbing, sometimes the Plane climbes to steep until it gets in Stall.

 

At other DEP I also did recognise simmilar cracy Routes. CRJ 700/900X dident had the Problem with the cracy Routes ant the Stall !  CRJ 700/900X only had the little Problem with the late Turns (after overfly the Points)

 

Green Line      =  CRJ 700/900X

Magenta Line =  CRJ Pro

 

1474433963_CRJAbflge04.thumb.jpg.943064bfdc2083fe4e84ed3aced67379.jpg

 

You can see easily that the green Line is the more real Line!

 

Optical, spezial the illumination of the Cockpit, the CRJ Pro is the better Plane, in flying the DEP,  the CRJ 700/900X was much better. I cant understand why, spezial because the predecessor coud it.

 

Questions:

Are out there other Users with this Problems?

Is an Update expectibal for that Problem?

 

Sincerelly

Zimmi

 

 

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Vor 1 Stunde, Zimmi sagte:

 

 

CRJ Abflüge 04.jpg

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@zimmi

Zimmi this ist not like the CRJ Pro handle such a SID normally, espacially with a Stall.

I will try a flight later the day.

 

Wolfgang

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Zimmi, your observations are correct.
I only tested the 900Pro and until BREGO it looks normal with 190 KIAS, but BREGO is defined as a fly-over waypoint and so the CRJ is too far off course to ZH556 and ZH557. I could only save this because I entered a DIRECT AFOLT in time before BREGO on the second attempt.
But in no case I had a stall in speed mode.
Do you have stalls when the CRJ flies too tight curves to reach the missing waypoint?

 

 

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@ Hoffie3000

I decided bevor do any Tests to reinstall my CRJ Pro because I had installed Version 2.0.0.3 and it will only be provided when in the Aerosoft Updater ist Experimental Actualisations marked. I did unmark and reinstall my original Version 2.0.0.0 to have a 100% clean installation..

 

After reinstalling and loading the Plane the Engines are running and I can move the aircraft by the engines BUT inside the Cockpit I have no Power (all Screens dark). I can handle the switches (for Example Landinglights ect., they move) but it takes no effect! I did uninstall and reinstall it 3 times (Virus Protection off) but everytimes the same effect. I also loaded first the "Prepare3D Default" Situation and then the CRJ Pro but no effect. Clicking the EFB wont take it alive. EFB remains in dark screen. The Nose Wheel (Outside view) looks strong to the left, but i can taxi the plane in each Direction.

 

Please help me to get the CRJ Pro usable again in P3dv4!    My 3dv4 Version is: 4.5.13.32097

 

As soon the CRJ Pro will work again, I will fly the DEP with 190 KIAS to BREGO and further to GERSA to test the Plane for stalls. Maybe after this delay the Plane will work normaly, with out Stalls. Thats for i did the very Clean Install.

 

Sincerelly

Zimmi

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@ Branimir

It also did fix it to me. Ty so much Branimir.

 

@Hoffie3000

Tomorrow I will test the DEP and post the resultat.

 

Sincerelly

Zimmi

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@Hoffie3000

 

First of all:

Installed Version of CRJ 700/900X is: 1.2.3.0 !!!

Installed Version of CRJ Pro is           2.0.0.3 !!!

 

Flightpath following:

I have done with this both Versions several Tests. For both Versions i selected the Model 700 in same Conditions (Weather and Load). The Weather was: No Clouds, no Wind, Temp 15°C, Visibillity unlimited. The Load was: Passingers 70, Cargo FWD 0 kg, Cargo AFT 800 kg, Fuel 3000 kg. Speed was only 170 KIAS to give the Autopilot some more Time to act. With other Speeds the Pathes will be little different but the main Problem remains the same. Flaps were during Rotation at 20, then immediately retracted to Position 1.  Position 1 was set completed at about the half way between Airborn and KLO02.

 

There is def. a Difference in the Autopilot. The CRJ 700/900X follows the Flightpath much more accurate. See Pic.

 

Green Line      =  CRJ 700/900X

Magenta Line =  CRJ Pro

 

2100763297_DepGersafromRwy28inLSZH.thumb.jpg.91b28c6e0206ec52a6129878cc0fa04a.jpg

 

The green Line is about the same Path which all my other Aircrafts (PMDG, FlightSimLabs Airbus, Majestic Q400) will fly.  CRJ Pro seams to react the Direction to late and maybe also to slow. Seams that causes the Problems. Reactpoints marked with Crossline.

 

BREGO as Overfly:

My other Aircrafts wont handle BREGO as an overfly. They will turn bevor reaching BREGO, so they will not have the Problems to reach ZH556 and ZH557. At this Point I have to say that i fly the other Aircrafts with NavDate 0518 and only the CRJ with the newer 0319 (included in the Package). Maybe 0319 will handle BREGO as an Overfly and 0518 not. If PMDG, FlightSimLabs Airbus, Majestic Q400 will not handle BREGO in the NavData 0319 as Overfly ther is the Question why does this CRJ (700/900x and Pro). Only this Definition Overfly will generate the Problem to reach ZH556 and ZH557.

To set a Direct to ZH556 befor reaching BREGO seams to be a Workaround in 2 Ways:

1. I dont beleave that this is the Way in real Life.

2. At the Point, I set the Direct, the Autopilot will set a direct Line to ZH556. At this Point the Procedere is the same as in BREGO because at the Moment I set the Direct, I overfly the Starting Point of the new Direct Line. To reduce this Problem I had, at the Moment when the Aircraftnose looks directly to ZH556. to set again a Direct to ZH556!

With all this Handlings we are close to the way to fly the DEP by setting HDG.

 

Just for Illustration the Autopilot Problem with an other DEP:

DEP CAN2U from Rwy 01 in LSZA (Lugano)

OK - its an difficult DEP but PMDG B-737, FlightSimLabs A-319 and Majestic Q400 can handle it and its great to fly this DEP in Simulation. Colored is the part whichone I did fly with Autopilot. The not collored Part I did fly per Hand to garantie the right Turn after ILU20.

At the End of DEP CRJ 700/900X had also some Troubles to fly a credible Path. In the middle of DEP CRJ Pro did fly a very strange Path !!! Same Weather and Loadconditions as in LSZH. Speed between 160 - 175 KIAS.

 

696381758_DEPCannefromRwy01inLSZA.thumb.jpg.5581cdda906d5ac6020c7c9d09e7a982.jpg

 

 

Stalls:

With the Version 2.0.0.3 I dident get any Stalls in SPD Mode during climbing.

 

I hope Aerosoft can fix the Autopilot from the CRJ Pro that it works at least in the way of the Autopilot from the CRJ 700/900X!

In all other Points I love the CRJ Pro. Spezial the Illumination of the Cockpit looks great.

 

Sincerelly

Zimmi

 

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According to the LSZH departure charts in the Navigraph charts app, BREGO is not a flyover waypoint. It appears that the CRJ Pro is treating it as if it was. Perhaps an error in the nav data, or perhaps en error in the FMS logic.

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vor 15 Stunden , JRBarrett sagte:

According to the LSZH departure charts in the Navigraph charts app, BREGO is not a flyover waypoint.

 

If I look at the official SykGuide Charts from Eurocontrol I see the Symbol for a Fly-Over waypoint at BREGO. Or do I misinterpret the chart?

The ND of the CRJ Pro shows that too.

1803521731_Zrich.thumb.jpg.2e6c89f4060d3f5597aea8acfc7ac791.jpg

 

201155205_zurch_2.thumb.jpg.0c77cff8479be39b548f0e9db2e24776.jpg

 

1549727292_Zrich3.jpg.64064e8207779d37a6e0d7280e7204aa.jpg

 

 

@Zimmi

The CRJ Series is made of Hans Hartmann not Aerosoft.

At time there are some more issues but he has not leave any Messages since weeks. Maybe he is at vacation or has to do some programming work in his profession.

 

Wolfgang

 

 

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Hi

 

As far the Legend shows, BREGO seams to be an Overfly Point.

In this case i would be interested how the real Aircrafts will reach ZH556 !!!

I know a real Life Pilot from the Airline Swiss. His Base is LSZH. I cant contact him at the moment but i try again in the next Days. Will ask him if BREGO is an Overfly or not and how he will fly the DEP to GERSA. He is an A-320 Pilot, not CRJ but in the Basic of our Problem, that shouldent matter in any way.

I will post his Answer as soon as i know it!

 

@Hoffie3000

Ty for the Point to Hans Hartmann as Devloper of CRJ Series.

 

Result of all:

At this Point I will use the CRJ Pro for Flights with very easy DEP (no hard turns) or as Plane for visual Flight, the CRJ 700/900X for IFR Flights with difficult DEP.

I hope hard for an Update of the Autopilot from the CRJ Pro !!!

 

Sincerelly

Zimmi

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Yes, the chart from Eurocontrol does indeed appear to depict BREGO as a flyover waypoint. It may depend on the specific departure. Looking on the chart for the GERSHA 1C departure (which is to the east), the first waypoint, ZH502, is shown as flyover, while the next waypoint, ZH526 is not. The departure path on that particular SID clearly shows the aircraft overflying the first waypoint, then making a right turn beyond it to the southwest to track to the second.

 

One LSZH chart I looked at that does NOT depict BREGO as a flyover is the VEBIT 3N from runway 32 - but in that particular SID, BREGO is the third waypoint, not the first.

 

The GERSHA 1E, does involve BREGO, but it is not flyover in that SID either - but it IS flyover in the VEBIT 3W - so it appears to depend on the coding of the specific SID.

 

Looking at the map with the flight path you recorded using the CRJ Pro, I think I see what is going wrong. In a real aircraft (CRJ or otherwise), if a waypoint is marked “flyover” in the navigation database, once the aircraft has passed the flyover waypoint, it should calculate the most direct path to the next waypoint from its current position. That calculation will be continuously adjusted as the aircraft is turning. It should essentially do a “DIRECT TO” the next waypoint. Once the aircraft is established on a direct course to the next waypoint, that becomes the current LNAV leg.

 

What appears to be happening in the CRJ Pro is that the aircraft is instead trying to “get back to” the direct course from BREGO to the next waypoint, which is going to involve a lot of “S” turns back and forth to establish on that leg. That is an error. 

 

When a waypoint is NOT flyover, and a turn is required, the aircraft will begin turning before reaching the waypoint to smoothly pick up the next leg from “the inside” of the turn, which the CRJ seems to do well.

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@Hoffie3000

Where did you pickup this Skyguide Charts?

 

@JRBarrett

Where did you pickup the Eurocontrol Charts?

It seams to make Sence when the Definition of BREGO depends on the DEP Route.

 

@all

I just had Contact to my Friend, the real Swiss Pilot.

In real, Swiss doesent fly this GERSA Dep as we are discussing. Swiss fly VEBIT Dep and as soon as they are high enouth to reach OMIDO at 10`000 feet or higher, they get a Direct to OMIDO. OMIDO is not Part of the GERSA DEP but its exacly on the GERSA DEP Path (between ZH557 and AFOLT). Thats the Way Swiss handels Departures via GERSA.

Well - not the first Time I recognize that Things in Real will be handled in a different way than in Theorie.

 

 

The Problem with the Autopilot in CRJ Pro still remains. The CRJ 700/900X follows the Flightpath much more accurate 

CRJ Pro seams to react the Direction to late and maybe also to slow.  Reactpoints marked with Crossline.

 

Green Line      =  CRJ 700/900X

Magenta Line =  CRJ Pro

 

First Part of DEP GERSA and VEBIT

152939138_DepGersafromRwy28inLSZH.thumb.jpg.6381d9b3510c6abba0cdd55a2caeca8c.jpg

 

DEP CAN2U from Rwy 01 in LSZA (Lugano)

239991579_DEPCannefromRwy01inLSZA.thumb.jpg.35fb1bb1079a19530b9d33a97a9b5b3f.jpg

 

Still hoping of an Update who corrects the Autopilot !!!

 

Sincerelly

Zimmi

 

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@Hoffie3000

Ty for the Tip. I did register me. A very interessting Site.

 

Sincerelly

Zimmi

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What Skyguide says:

 

Before I got Contact to my Friend the Swiss Airbus Pilot, I also did phone Skyguide ;-). They pleased me to send them the Question per E-Mail. Now I got the Answer.

 

Here the Question I asked them per E-Mail:

Dear Skyguide Employees

My question:
Is BREGO a flyover or fly-by GPS point?
If it is a flyover point, how can ZH556 (and ZH557) still be reached in DEP after GERSA?

With kind regards
Zimmermann

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

 

Here the Answer of Skyguide:

Dear Mr Zimmermann

BREGO, as published in the AIP, is a fly-over point, i.e. it is a fly-over. Afterwards a continuing track is intercepted. How this is handled by the FMS depends on the aircraft and the FMS. This means that the FMS could see BREGO as fly-by, but this is contrary to the definition.

The Points ZH556 and ZH557 are only found on GERSA2W SID. In general, the aircraft are released to the south on VEBIT SID.

I hope to serve you with this information and am available for further questions.

Friendly greetings
Monica Ezquerra
corporate image & visitor services

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

 

I did ask in E-Mail in German because Skyguide is in Switzerland. Thats why here is the Translation by DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

It was me, who highlited parts in Red.

 

Interesting, that one and the same Point in the same DEP can be handled as Flyover and Flyby, depending of the Aircraft and its FMS !

 

Anyway:

I am still hoping of an Autopilotupdate, then CRJ 700/900X follows the Flightpath much more accurate, independent of this Flyofer or Flyby. See DEP CAN2U from Rwy 01 in LSZA (Lugano).

 

Sincerelly

Zimmi

 

 

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Zimmi, thank you for the Information.

I fly a lot with the CRJ Pro over Europe and in most cases the FMS of the CRJ Pro handle SID and STARS much better as the old CRJ X.

But no rule without exception, the CRJ is sensitive to excessive speeds during these phases.

That's why there are still pilots - in case the computer screws up 🙂

But I agree with you, improvements are always welcome

 

Wolfgang

 

 

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I noticed that, if you try to fly this SID quite slowly, you're climb rate is quite high and by the time, the aircraft passes BREGO, it's above FL100. This is the time, when the maximum bank angle is switched from 31 to 25 degrees (in my code - nobody knows when the real thing does it). I made a little change that allows 31 degrees bank angle for the whole SID, STAR and APPR and only goes to 25 degrees (or below on greater altitudes) during the enroute phase. That's part 1 of the fix for this issue. The second part will be a check for a very short leg following an overfly waypoint resulting in a tighter return back to track.

 

I'm quite curious if a heavy aircraft can return back on track within 3NM after an overfly waypoint with an ~80 degree turn. I have my doubts, to be honest.

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Hi Hans Hans Hartmann

 

Ty for your reacting.

 

As far I could figure out, the CRJ Pro should not only try to do a steeper curve, it should start to react earlier. Probably the Combination of green and orange Path would work best.

Of cause, I am not a Devloper but I suppose a steeper curve is just the first Part of a Solution. The Key for Sucsess probably will be in a Combination of steeper Curves and erlier Reactpoint.

 

Green Line      =  CRJ 700/900X

Magenta Line =  CRJ Pro

orange Line    =  Maybe the Result by only steeper Curves

 

1852891454_DepGersafromRwy28inLSZH.thumb.jpg.1d3f0973cecfaf38ae1bf3ee1d038ef5.jpg

 

Will your Correction be showed in the Aerosoft Updater?

 

Sincerelly

Zimmi

 

 

 

Dep Gersa from Rwy 28 in LSZH.jpg

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20 hours ago, Hans Hartmann said:

 

I'm quite curious if a heavy aircraft can return back on track within 3NM after an overfly waypoint with an ~80 degree turn. I have my doubts, to be honest.

Hans,

 

When an overfly waypoint is followed by a non-overfly waypoint, and there is a significant course change involved, the autopilot does not try to (and is not required to) return to the direct track connecting the overfly waypoint to the succeeding waypoint. Once the overfly waypoint is passed, the aircraft turns to establish itself on a direct track from its current position to the next waypoint. There is no specific required ground track between the overfly waypoint and the next waypoint in the flight plan. The ground track the aircraft actually follows will depend on the rate of turn, which depends on its speed and the wind.
 

Essentially, after passing an overfly waypoint, the autopilot calculates a DTO to the next waypoint, and continuously re-calculates the DTO in the turn until the aircraft is established on the direct course.

 

If you look at the SID chart for the LSZH GERSHA 1C departure, it illustrates this well. The first waypoint (overfly) is ZH502. There is a significant course change  of about 120 degrees to the next waypoint, ZH526. The chart does show (in light gray) that the direct track from ZH502 to ZH526 would be 204 degrees, but the aircraft is not expected to adhere to that. You will note that there is no specified heading for the segment ZH502 to ZH526 - instead it just depicts just a curved line, (representing the turn), followed by a straight segment to ZH526. The exact ground track for the segment ZH502-ZH526 is not going to be the same for every aircraft that flies this departure on a given day, or even the same aircraft from one day to the next if the winds aloft are significantly different.

 

All of the following non-overfly waypoints in the SID: ZH526, ARTAG, GERSA etc. do have specified headings for their respective leg segments.

 

Now,  if the required course change between an overfly and non-overfly waypoint is very slight, the aircraft will have no problem picking up a specific heading to the next waypoint, as illustrated in the VEBIT 3W departure, where BREGO is an overfly waypoint, and the following waypoint ZH554 is not. The required heading change is only eight degrees in this case.
 

In the case of BREGO in particular, it is not always an overfly waypoint in the various LSZH departures. It depends on the specific procedure - sometimes it is, sometimes it is not.

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I spent the last two days flying the GERS2W departure from LSZH/28 and making a lot of changes. The return to track after an overfly waypoint now happens sooner and in case the next waypoint is too close by, the FMS "targets" the following waypoint. So far I tried LSZH and LSZA and it seems to work quite fine. I will send this new version to the testers soon (most likely on the weekend) and have it tested.

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Hi Hans Hartmann

 

Still no update avaliable? Aerosoft Updater doesent show one. Can you say about when an Update will be avaliable?

 

Sincerelly

Zimmi

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If it's any consolation....

 

The real CRJ is a little notorious for overshooting and overcorrecting steep RNAV turns, especially fly-overs, especially around 200+ knots, and this becomes very apparent during nav-to-nav crossover on the ILS approaches. I've nicknamed it the "RJ Waggle" because it ended up being that predictable - to the point where a HDG -> NAV mode transition with a steep turn was discouraged on parallel approaches because of the likelihood of blowing through. Not to mention I've seen the AFCS turn the plane the wrong way initially on an intercept (re-intercept logic in RNAV for CRJ is 45deg intercept angle, which is a bit dumb). So, on a 30deg intercept to RNAV final approach, we almost always see the real plane turn MORE into the track (as much as 10 deg more) before somewhat aggressively trying to correct its own mistake (thus, the "waggle"). Weird behavior? Absoutely! It's just the way the RJ is sometimes. 

 

TLDR; simulation isn't perfect, but the real RJ doesn't do much better in this particular set of circumstances, in my experience

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