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Topic: Navigation Database


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It maybe a very difficult thing to implement in the simulator but it would be as real as possible.

What if it's possible to implement real world NOTAM's into the simulator. So if in real world for example taxiway A12 is closed on EHAM because of construction works it would automatical be closed in the simulator. Problem would be that the amount of NOTAM's that need to be checked is simply huge, a automated system should be created but that should be possible (got some ideas in my head ;) )

Regards,

Sander

I really like that idea. And it is not as hard as you may think. If you like to explore this a bit more contact me on support@aerosoft.com.

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With regards to a Flight Sim in-flight map, like the one you see when you select "World-map" in the FSX menu, I think it should be layed out in several ways:

One thing that always annoys me about the map feature of FSX is the fact that you can't look at it and fly at the same time. An add on plane that was recently released by another company has a feature that I really like. You can open a map window (like a 2D pop-up window) and look at the map and fly at the same time. This is so much more realistic. Also, it would be nice to have landmarks shown on the charts; not everybody flies by GPS.;)

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It would seem to me that if you are going to have moveable Carriers, ACLS or somesuch and want to simulate them accurately, there needs to be a database section for variable data that is updating the positions of the Navaids onboard the carriers/ships. The math functions do not need to be in the database, but the (varying) results do.

Then of course you would need to build the AI ship interface such that assigning a track will cause the update to function.

The problem will come in when multiplayer ops arrives. The players will have to agree on a set of parameters for the session.

Cheers!

Jim Dhaenens

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It is indeed easier said then done, lol. The idea we are now considering is to keep the whole system very open. For example using pure SQL databases for most things, to describe them thoroughly in the SDK.

That means that we deliver an initial database (nav data/some charts etc) and that people can use 3rd party sources to be updated. It seems near impossible to sell the product for 60 Euro and then deliver the databases on the 28 day cycle used most.

You could get the guy's at Navigraph involved with this one as their updates to High/Low Enroute Charts and Airac cycles are commonly used. It would then be upto the user if he/she would then want to pay for updates and not aerosoft.

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One thing that always annoys me about the map feature of FSX is the fact that you can't look at it and fly at the same time. An add on plane that was recently released by another company has a feature that I really like. You can open a map window (like a 2D pop-up window) and look at the map and fly at the same time. This is so much more realistic. Also, it would be nice to have landmarks shown on the charts; not everybody flies by GPS.;)

You can have this option in any aircraft if you use FSMap and no doubt aerosoft will be looking into this with Thomas (just a hint Mathijs :D )

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Mathijs,

although many valid points have been mentioned, but please let me add my own comment which is based on plenty of experience with converting an ARINC-424 database to the Aerowinx PS1.3 file formats. Please excuse me when repeating some statements.

First, there is the real world which consists of electronic navaids (VORs, NDBs, ILSs, MLSs (!), DMEs (which may be separated from the VOR or ILS, localizer and glideslope positions ...) and then there is data inside the FMS box which is basically a model of the real world. If you aim for the general solution, you'll have both data sets seperated or a field within the database which distinguishes whether a VOR position of frequency is valid for the real world, the FMS data or both. Another aspect of separating real world data and FMS data is that things like reception range can be precisely modeled but the FMS only needs to know whether a VOR is High, Low or Terminal. Besides, Navdata within the FMS can be incorrect... ;-)

Furthermore, real world FMS computers usually contain only a partial coverage of the worlds. This is in particular true for short range aircraft e.g. the A320 (sure, it depends on the company) but also long rang aircraft like the 747-400 contain only a selected number of airports which have SIDs/STARs/IAPs (this is a company option and depends on the NavData supplier) while the airway coverage is global.

If you keep the station list separate or distinguishable from the FMS data, you are able to model this. But make sure that both data sets correlate, because this is one of the shortcomings of FS2004.

Second, with regard to SIDs, STARs and Instrument Approaches, I urgently recommend to implement the full ARINC-424 standard. To be more precise, try to handle all possible combinations of the leg types within the Path-and-Terminator (PT) concept which includes easy stuff like TF (track to a fix) waypoints, but also conditional waypoints, vectors, DME arcs, that paired with all transitions for SID/STAR/IAP. (Note: the PSS databases are basically a dump of an ARINC-424 database but the processing of PSS is not really good for complex procedures)

If you can achieve this, you should be pretty much independent from a specific supplier of NavData. Also, you should in theory be able to e.g. read real-world FMS data disks so can you specifically use company specific data for the pro version of AFS2012.

Best regards and all the best for the project,

MArkus

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If you can achieve this, you should be pretty much independent from a specific supplier of NavData. Also, you should in theory be able to e.g. read real-world FMS data disks so can you specifically use company specific data for the pro version of AFS2012.

Best regards and all the best for the project,

MArkus

I think that this is not possible in this case. The FMS data disks are very small extracts out of the world wide nav database. Also they are tailored down to the FMC Manufacturer (Honeywell, Colins, Smith) and the airline that uses the data.

Not every FMS can interpret all path terminators. For this reason the nav data providers sort out all Terminal Procedures (AF-Legs - DME ARCS for example) that don't work on an specific FMS.

As there are only three companys offering a complete worldwide database that satisfy our needs, there are only three options for an navdata base provider:

1. Lufthansa Systems FlightNav

2. Jeppesen

3. EAG (European Aeronautical Group) also proviedes the datas for navigraph

Because of the huge amount of datas its impossible to the data collection without a provider.

The source of the data that all three providers use is the AIP (Aeronautical Infomation Publication) that every country of the world has to provide.

They take the AIP (Page for Page) and enter the relevant datas for every AIRAC-Cycle into their database. This means a lot of work every month for each country. So this can not be achieved by aerosoft without a provider.

Flight Management System & ARINC 424 Navigation

Database:

http://www.bangkok.icao.int/meetings/2008/pbn_tf3/fms_iata.pdf

There are also big differences in data quality of these three providers. EAG for example lacks in completeness of the waypoints and doesn't offer a lot of so called "self calculated waypoints" whereas Lufthansa and Jeppesen do. This ones are in most of the cases BRG/Dist calculated waypoints which are very important in the todays RNAV environment. EAG uses the Path Terminators much more in this case. But for the FMS / Pilots it is much better / stable for the FMS to have a calculated waypoint instead of an Path Terminator where you sometime have no clue where you will end up.

Jan-Paul

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  • Root Admin

I think that this is not possible in this case. The FMS data disks are very small extracts out of the world wide nav database. Also they are tailored down to the FMC Manufacturer (Honeywell, Colins, Smith) and the airline that uses the data.

Not every FMS can interpret all path terminators. For this reason the nav data providers sort out all Terminal Procedures (AF-Legs - DME ARCS for example) that don't work on an specific FMS.

Interesting comments, thanks! We are currently already discussing this with the nav data providers, we did understand that issue very early.

HOWEVER, I see a great opportunity for add-on publishers here. We will provide a full data set that is actual upon release. Now as you noted they all have some problems but as long as the dataformat is well described and is in a standard form (SQL database) it should be easy to update or change the databases. For the majority of users this is not very needed as most users do not need the most up to date data.

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I think that this is not possible in this case. The FMS data disks are very small extracts out of the world wide nav database. Also they are tailored down to the FMC Manufacturer (Honeywell, Colins, Smith) and the airline that uses the data.

Thanks for the comment. I am aware of the data used in FMS data disks. What I am trying to say is that the professional version might include appropriote software to read and convert FMS data disks to an AFS2012 format. There is existing software around, namely for the Aerosim FMS trainer, which does exactly that; it converts airline (and FMC) specific data for use in a training software.

However, to make this tool working and useful, the FMS simulation must be able to handle the variety of procedures using different coding styles and must also handle different data quality. There is some effort required to make this work but it can be done.

> There are also big differences in data quality of these three providers.

This is surely true. ;-)

Markus

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Will the open format database be accessible both ways? For example, as a writer of a third party flight planning software, would I be able to utilise the sim database within my addon? If so, would this access be open, by licence, or undecided?

Also, will the data updates include airspace? Here in England, the airspace in parts of the country is already WAAY different to how FSX portrays it, and there are more changes in the pipeline, not to mention whatever EASA foists upon us!

Finally, there are important classifications of airspace for VFR pilots here that MS chose not to bother with -- MATZ, ATZ -- will these be included?

Cheers

Tim

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Will the open format database be accessible both ways? For example, as a writer of a third party flight planning software, would I be able to utilise the sim database within my addon? If so, would this access be open, by licence, or undecided?

I think the new sim should store the data in XML files. This means its easily accessible and up-datable!

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  • Root Admin

I think the new sim should store the data in XML files. This means its easily accessible and up-datable!

Believe me, you do not want these kinds of databases in XML. It will have to be seriously complex sql databases.

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One thing that always annoys me about the map feature of FSX is the fact that you can't look at it and fly at the same time. An add on plane that was recently released by another company has a feature that I really like. You can open a map window (like a 2D pop-up window) and look at the map and fly at the same time. This is so much more realistic. Also, it would be nice to have landmarks shown on the charts; not everybody flies by GPS.;)

This would be fine!

And I would like to see villages, rivers and streets on the map.

To learn something about the world... and where I am.

And the FSX map isn't printerfriendly and it is a very little window.

Please make it full screen and in a way, that we can use a printout during the flight.

And many users, who want to show a route to other users, have the problem, to make an image of the FSX map.

Most other maps cann't be used because it is not allowed to share them.

It should be possible to save a screen print in a file.

Albrecht

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Mathijs:

Supply through ASFlightSim with both distinct FMS or FMC, the one from Airbus and the one from Boeing and maybe another one in between. Have the capability to be able to fly with VOR, NDB, ILS.

Make Autopilot real please. Full Controls, full landings, flares and full takeoffs.

The whole NAV data can be one year old and still good to fly for us in the new ASFS. Make it easy to make corrections by customer and third parties. Same with SID's and Star's

ATC, good and smart.

Cheers,

MAB

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  • Root Admin

Also nice would be an extended nav database incluiding real routes between two airports. I known, it doesn't hit the target of the thread but I think it depends on the nav data.

Agreed...

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Hello there,

in addition to the route database, try to negotiate with EAD about their latest route validation - CFMU Europe airspace only. In the last few months it became very hard for us simmers to validate routes via CFMU Brussel. They changed a lot so you are not able to use a web interface like you were used to before. Maybe this goes to far beyond the content of the flight simulator, but maybe it's an idea for further addon development. ;)

Greetz Arne

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Hello there,

in addition to the route database, try to negotiate with EAD about their latest route validation - CFMU Europe airspace only. In the last few months it became very hard for us simmers to validate routes via CFMU Brussel. They changed a lot so you are not able to use a web interface like you were used to before. Maybe this goes to far beyond the content of the flight simulator, but maybe it's an idea for further addon development. ;)

Greetz Arne

Have you tried this?

https://www.cfmu.eur...spec/index.html

In the right column you'll find the link to the free Editor of the IFPUV (or the structured editor if you prefer that one...). Works just like it did with the old site-design.

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Have you tried this?

https://www.cfmu.eur...spec/index.html

In the right column you'll find the link to the free Editor of the IFPUV (or the structured editor if you prefer that one...). Works just like it did with the old site-design.

I am aware of the new NOP. ;) The thing I meant was the remote interface to validate your flightplans. The access got restricted after the redesign. :(

After reading my previous post again I must admit that it's a bit bad formulated. :blush:

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