Nexus82 21 Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Hello Minor detail, but this has been a slight pet peeve of mine since the original CRJ How can the CRJ depict a talwind on the ND while the aircraft is stationary on the ground (parked at a remote stand, for instance) I understand that the system should be able to detect the relative headwind velocity and vector, when at a complete stand still, but a tailwind? Example from the sim, and should not be possible: (BTW the PBR version of Aerosoft's EDDK is outstanding!) Please login to display this image. Example from real world, TAS 6kts, GS 0kts and notice the wind indicator and aircraft heading. Please login to display this image. Thanks for a very fine release! BR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developer Hans Hartmann 3695 Posted November 26, 2019 Developer Share Posted November 26, 2019 You're right. It just never crossed my mind... too many other things to think about. I'll put it on my list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developer Hans Hartmann 3695 Posted November 27, 2019 Developer Share Posted November 27, 2019 Ok, my previous post was rubbish. Here comes the fixed version (after discussing the matter with a former CRJ pilot) The wind is not calculated by the ADC, the information comes from the IRS (or GPS). As long as the aircraft sits still on the ground, no wind should be shown. What you see on your photo is a bug - probably the wind from the last landing which hasn't been cleared properly. I'll ask at which ground speed the wind info becomes alive and then I will fix it accordingly. However, there's no indication depending on head- or tailwind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexus82 21 Posted November 27, 2019 Author Share Posted November 27, 2019 Odd, here is another example, taken after landing. And there are more images on the great internet where windpointer is shown and aircraft is parked. (always a direct HW vector and speed = TAS) https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8701964 Maybe the logic is different on different air frames? But the TAS calcuation should be done by the Air data system. So If we have a sensed TAS and IRS/GPS is feeding 0 groundspeed, perhaps wind pointer will just be a HW vector and speed equal to TAS? "The air data system provides the following air data parameters: Pressure altitude and barometric--corrected altitude Vertical speed, indicated airspeed, Mach number and true airspeed (TAS)" ...And more..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deputy Sheriffs The Dude 6537 Posted November 27, 2019 Deputy Sheriffs Share Posted November 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Nexus82 said: So If we have a sensed TAS and IRS/GPS is feeding 0 groundspeed, perhaps wind pointer will just be a HW vector and speed equal to TAS? This could very well be the case yes. I have never seen it myself IRL as far as I can recall. Nevertheless it is a bug in the real aircraft and having a wind indication on ground with Hans's CRJ is also a bug. ps, TAS is not sensed but calculated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexus82 21 Posted November 27, 2019 Author Share Posted November 27, 2019 12 minutes ago, Frank Docter said: ps, TAS is not sensed but calculated. Gotcha, that is lost is translation. In my language "known" (which is what I wanted to write) can be easily interpret as sensed if you are not careful with the dictionary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deputy Sheriffs The Dude 6537 Posted November 27, 2019 Deputy Sheriffs Share Posted November 27, 2019 32 minutes ago, Nexus82 said: Gotcha, that is lost is translation. Yeah sorry for that, as an airline pilot you become very anal in using the exact wording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRBarrett 675 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 The wind vector can indicate on the ground, but only if the aircraft is not moving. In that case, the displayed arrow will always show a direct headwind, because the aircraft has no way of knowing actual wind direction - it is only sensing pitot pressure higher than static pressure. When the IRU accelerometers detect that the aircraft is in motion, the wind vector should be suppressed if the aircraft is still on the ground. (i.e. weight on wheels is detected). This may indeed be a “bug” of sorts in the real aircraft, in the sense that air data computer speed is normally suppressed below 40 knots. It may depend on the specific software revision level of the FMS. In flight, the wind vector is calculated by the FMS, which receives current true airspeed (TAS) generated by the Air Data Computer (TAS is Indicated Airspeed corrected for pressure altitude and temperature). It calculates ground speed (GS) by measuring the change in aircraft position over time. The magnitude component of the displayed wind vector is the difference between TAS and GS. With a headwind component, TAS will be higher than GS. With a tailwind component, GS will be higher than TAS. The direction component of the wind vector is calculated based on the difference between aircraft heading (which comes from the IRS), and the aircraft’s actual course over the ground (also measured by the IRS or GPS). This same calculation can be done on the wind grid on the back side of an old-fashioned E6-B mechanical flight computer. Beginning flight students learn to do this as part of flight planning for cross county trips. (At least they did when I was going through the private pilot course back in 1988!) When flight planning, the pilot usually knows what course they will be flying between waypoints (heading), and knows expected winds aloft from the forecast. With those two pieces of information, the E6-B can be used to calculate expected ground speed and wind correction angle required to hold the plotted course. Nowadays, all this can be done automatically by flight planning software, but I hope that students are still taught how to do it the “old way”, with charts, plotters and either a mechanical or electronic E6-B). The reverse calculation can be done in flight on the E6-B wind grid based on actual ground speed and actual wind correction angle being used to hold the course - which is what the FMS does in the real aircraft using ADC airspeed and IRS ground speed and drift rate. In the sim, there is no actual IRS or Air Data Computer of course. Current wind speed and direction are available directly from sim connect, as are all the other parameters (TAS, IAS, Mach, GS, position and heading etc.) My suggestion to Hans would be to simply suppress the display of wind speed and direction on the PFD when the aircraft is on the ground, which is what the actual aircraft does - with the exception that it might appear (in the real aircraft) if the aircraft is not moving - but as I said, that probably depends on the specific software the FMS is using. Most large aircraft simply suppress the wind vector until airborne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developer Hans Hartmann 3695 Posted November 27, 2019 Developer Share Posted November 27, 2019 Jim: I thought about suppressing the winds up to the same speed where the TAS starts showing. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRBarrett 675 Posted November 27, 2019 Share Posted November 27, 2019 1 minute ago, Hans Hartmann said: Jim: I thought about suppressing the winds up to the same speed where the TAS starts showing. What do you think? That should work. If the ground winds are higher than that, the aircraft should probably not be flying in any case! JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developer Hans Hartmann 3695 Posted November 27, 2019 Developer Share Posted November 27, 2019 It's fixed now and will be available with the next update. I'm going to close this thread now. Should the problem prevail (unlikely), please open a new thread. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Developer Hans Hartmann 3695 Posted November 27, 2019 Developer Share Posted November 27, 2019 Because we believe this topic has been answered we have closed it. If you have any more questions feel free to open a new topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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