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Hi andersenbali,

 

the created route validates fine. ROTOS is only approx. 40nm away from LSZH. Assuming a normal climb profile, you would reach this waypoint somewhere between FL150 and FL200.

Sometimes you have to use the low level airways as a connector in order to get to the upper level ones.

I would say, as long as the generated routes validate without any routing error - flight level constraints till/from certain waypoints not considered - you can use these routes.

 

Of course you can force PFPX in advanced route finder to really use upper airways only, by excluding certain airways, but you could end up with some strange routings then.

 

 

Regards

David

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6 minutes ago, Sharky said:

Hi andersenbali,

 

the created route validates fine. ROTOS is only approx. 40nm away from LSZH. Assuming a normal climb profile, you would reach this waypoint somewhere between FL150 and FL200.

Sometimes you have to use the low level airways as a connector in order to get to the upper level ones.

I would say, as long as the generated routes validate without any routing error - flight level constraints till/from certain waypoints not considered - you can use these routes.

 

 

Regards

David

 

Agree...But I still see it as a bug cause the T50 is still a lower airspace airway. PFPX should have generated a DCT to ROTOS or taking me out of a different SID that connects me with a higher airspace airway after the SID, in this chase the WIL3V departure would be more correct to chose from the route builder in relation to my upper airspace airways ONLY demand.

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Which upper airway is WILLISAU 3V linked to directly ?

 

If a legitimate  direct link is possible it is easily added to user data.

 

Directs are not published  in AIRAC data, some are provided by PFPX, many for Europe are maintained thankfully by David for FRA.

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2 minutes ago, srcooke said:

Which upper airway is WILLISAU 3V linked to directly ?

 

If a legitimate  direct link is possible it is easily added to user data.

 

Directs are not published  in AIRAC data, some are provided by PFPX, many for Europe are maintained thankfully by David for FRA.

 

WILLSAU3V is not directly linked to any airway after WIL VOR. But when opening the route edit page and selecting "toggle DCT routes". ROTOS is DCT linked to WIL VOR (end of WILLISAU 3V SID)

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Yes a DCT  that David has supplied, you can add your own from VEBIT to ROTOS using the airway editor ( I would suggest creating a user database ) and if legitimate perhaps David could include it in an update.

 

I see no issue with the original routing, as David points out you are still climbing through lower airspace at that point.

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Thanks for helping out srcooke. I appreciate that. But fact is the route builder still choose a lower airspace airway T50 where I have demanded an upper airspace airway route only. 

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And you're right I´m still climbing out on a lower airspace airway on that route. But since upper airways only are choosen the init altitude on the OFP should be final cruise level FL350 and not FL190. Sorry if I´m "getting to much"

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That's not entirely correct. You can still file F350 as your initial altitude - even if this technically didn't comply with the restrictions of the first airway. IFPS is taking climb and descent profiles into account based on the aircraft type you file. 

If IFPS is acting up and giving you errors you can simply refile your initial RFL and add your final altitude to the waypoint as you exit the airway that restricts your climb. 

Also, for instance, climbing out of the London TMA you would always apply the latter method. 

I don't necessarily see a problem with the routing PFPX gave you there either. IFPS seems to be okay with both ways in this case as well. 

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11 minutes ago, datguytho said:

That's not entirely correct. You can still file F350 as your initial altitude - even if this technically didn't comply with the restrictions of the first airway. IFPS is taking climb and descent profiles into account based on the aircraft type you file. 

If IFPS is acting up and giving you errors you can simply refile your initial RFL and add your final altitude to the waypoint as you exit the airway that restricts your climb. 

Also, for instance, climbing out of the London TMA you would always apply the latter method. 

I don't necessarily see a problem with the routing PFPX gave you there either. IFPS seems to be okay with both ways in this case as well. 

 

Agree but the OP was expecting to use upper airways but there are non from VEBIT so the lower airway is used, adding the direct as suggested will overcome the problem.

 

As for using WILLISAU SID, it is not permitted for the route so may well have been excluded:

 

LS2564

WIL

Not available for traffic
1. DEP LFSB, LSZH/MD
Type JET
Except with ARR LSGC/MA/ME/MP/ZB/ZC/ZG

 

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Here is a real world FPL route from a few weeks ago from an Eesyjet flight:

LSZH-LPPT
N0354F190 VEBIT T50 ROTOS/N0436F390 UZ669 VADAR DCT NINTU UN869 AGN DCT PIPOR UL866 PPN UN976 ARDID DCT INBOM

 

As mentioned by @datguytho it is not uncommon.

 

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Here is an OFP EDDF - ENGM. UPPER AIRSPACE AIRWAYS ONLY. After MARUN (last waypoint on SID) the route builder gives me Y153 lower airpace to WARBURG VOR. Which is fine cause it is the only option the route builder has. But from WARBURG VOR the route builder lets me stay on lower airpsce airways N850 to ELBE VOR  even though upper airspace airways ONLY is choosen and the route builder actually has an upper airway to offer r which should have been UL 126 from WARBURG to ELBE and not airway N850. Please enligthen my 2nd confusion on this topic. Thanks

HLX352 EDDF-ENGM (15-Dec-2018) #1.pdf

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You have not cleared the EuroControl validation errors.

 

If you are not bothered with valid routes use the advanced route editor and put a tick in 'Ignore Route Restrictions' and select upper airways.

 

You'll get the route you are after: MARU4T MARUN Y153 WRB UL126 LBV UP615 EKERN UM852 ALASA M852 ALS Z731 SABAK L997 LUNIP LUNI4L

 

EDIT:

 

With Davids RAD restrictions and directs updates ( download section of the forum ) then simply using FIND ROUTE on the planning page returns a valid option straight off

 

-N0438F240 MARUN Y152 ARPEG/N0452F380 Z850 ABILU DCT
 RORUS/N0449F400 DCT TUSKA/N0450F390 N873 BAVTA P602 PIPEX M609
 RIPAM

 

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Ok. Makes sense. I do bother with valid routes so how do I clear the EuroControl Validation errors? Thanks for helping

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From your EDDF-ENGM plan posted, IFPS errors returned are:

 

ED2532

Y153 MARUN - WRB

Only available for traffic
DEP EDDF/FE, ETOU

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Not available for traffic
1. Above FL245 within ED**

This-traffic-shall-file Y150
2. ARR EDVK
This-traffic-shall-file MARUN DCT XAROL or N850 XAROL

 

and

 

YX2063

Not available for traffic
DEP (ad:EDDF/FE/FZ, ETOU)
except-via,

1. BADGO Z850 ABILU - [RKN, RORUS, AMSAN]
2. BITBU Y181 MAKIK UY181 DEMUL
3. OBOKA UZ28 DIBIR
4. BITBU Y180 NISIV UY180 DIK - TOLVU
5. NATSU Y150 TOLGI
6.OBOKA UZ29 TINIK UZ29 / UZ291 TORNU,

 

 

In this instance it is fairly easily resolved manually, NATSU is to the NE and Y150 links to it and for once you get your upper airway ;) :

 

 

-N0454F380 MARUN Y150 LBV/N0453F370 UP615 EKERN UM852 ALASA M852
 ALS Z731 SABAK/N0449F360 L997 LUNIP

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Thanks i'm already having a deep look into this. I found a youtube video from a guy who gives a tutorial using a route finder from page called eurofpl.eu. But even the proposed routes that are validated there have errors in PFPX. Still studing hard to understand this

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As PFPX submits the the plan to IFPS also then something is different in the plan you are submitting, date/time all come into the result along with the vertical profile.

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32 minutes ago, srcooke said:

From your EDDF-ENGM plan posted, IFPS errors returned are:

 

ED2532

Y153 MARUN - WRB

Only available for traffic
DEP EDDF/FE, ETOU

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Not available for traffic
1. Above FL245 within ED**

This-traffic-shall-file Y150
2. ARR EDVK
This-traffic-shall-file MARUN DCT XAROL or N850 XAROL

 

and

 

YX2063

Not available for traffic
DEP (ad:EDDF/FE/FZ, ETOU)
except-via,

1. BADGO Z850 ABILU - [RKN, RORUS, AMSAN]
2. BITBU Y181 MAKIK UY181 DEMUL
3. OBOKA UZ28 DIBIR
4. BITBU Y180 NISIV UY180 DIK - TOLVU
5. NATSU Y150 TOLGI
6.OBOKA UZ29 TINIK UZ29 / UZ291 TORNU,

 

 

In this instance it is fairly easily resolved manually, NATSU is to the NE and Y150 links to it and for once you get your upper airway ;) :

 

 

-N0454F380 MARUN Y150 LBV/N0453F370 UP615 EKERN UM852 ALASA M852
 ALS Z731 SABAK/N0449F360 L997 LUNIP

 

Interesting. I would love to know how you find the results that are validated. How did you get the replies like: This-traffic-shall-file Y150 2. ARR EDVK and 5. NATSU Y150 TOLGI
 

Is it a matter of openeing the route editor and going throgh the aiways one by one and look up which one is valid?

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Obtain the RAD Consolidated version for the current AIRAC to reference the error codes.

 

There are various methods, using the via and via+ commands of the route editor, using exclusion of airways /waypoints/fir etc in the advanced planner or in the case of your EDDF-ENGM just getting an eye for what to look for, and that comes over time if you persevere with validation.

 

 

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I can open the RAD website and I can find my current AIRAC. But have no idea what documenet to open to find the error codes. I guess I can find the error codes on the RAD button on the route editor page in PFPX? no? Still havent found out how you got the "This-traffic-shall-file Y150" from the EDDF ENGM. 

I have now out of curisosity triedif I can mnage to build a route from EDDF to LIRF (as anexample) and I goota say: I go to bed now. IA simply cannot build a rote that is 100% validated. Guess this is to advanced for me. Better try tomorrow. Thanks for helping

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After rejunvenating my brain cells after a good night sleep I found out that the document I was looking for on the eurocontrol page was the PAN EUROPE excel sheet . Here I was able to look up the error code and find the solution for the error. Finally I managed to create a route that passed the IFPS validation using the route editor and using the solutions that the PAN EUROPE sheet provide.

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