ck777 0 Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Hello All, First I would like to thank Belisar for his extremely thorough overview of ETOPS planning. The documents provide an excellent overview of the planning process, and I appreciated all the effort that went into writing the overview. I have a few simple questions, which I had trouble figuring out with the document. I recently did a flight in the 777 from PANC-RJAA Route (flightaware): NODLE R220 NANAC Y810 KETAR Y811 MELON DAISY Destination Alternate (I chose this): RJTT ETOPS - This is where I have questions. ETOPS 120 - I chose this from the drop down menu Adequate Airports: PANC PABE PASN PADK UHPP RJCN RJST Which ones do I pick? On the PPFX route map I see 3 circles and I assume they are 60 min? I have a 2 entry/exit points and I'm not sure which is the appropriate ETOPS alternate to choose. Based on the map, if I wanted to input the 60 min circles, I would choose PADK, UHPP, and RJCN to input on the FMC. Is that correct? I've read Belisar's documents several times and I just can't wrap my head around the above scenario, which is probably incredibly simple to figure out. Thanks for any advice and information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre95 14 Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Hello, B777 is 180 ETOPS certified (207 on north Pacific). So you can select PANC and UHPP as ETP Airports1 which cover the ETOPS Area for that route. Hope this help Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ck777 0 Posted October 2, 2013 Author Share Posted October 2, 2013 Hi Pierre, Thank you very much for the response, which is helpful. I wanted to double check something. On this route I only have "120" in the ETOPS planning menu. Would I still choose that option and select PANC and UHPP? I'm trying to understand the process a little better for future flights. Thanks again for the response. CK P.S. I was just reading through Belisar's document again and looks liike I may need to edit the 777 profile to edit for 180 ETOPS. I'll have to double check that when I get home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougsnow 50 Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 At my carrier R220 is a non-etops required airway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belisar 126 Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Hello, I am glad you are finding the guides useful. To add an ETOPS rule to your aircraft, go to Aircraft Database, select your 777 and then click on Edit. From there go to the ETOPS (Extended Range) tab. You will see the current rules' list. Click new and edit the name to your new rule (i.e ETOPS 207) and change max diversion time to 207 minutes. PFPX will calculate how far that is etc. Click save and then apply. If is very quick to do. As far as the FMC goes, by your list of adequates, I would go with PADK and UHPP in FIX 3 and 4 pages, replacing PADK with RJCN once within UHPP 60min circle. As far as for my ETOPS suitables airports, I would go with PANC and RJCC. These would cover the ETOPS segment under ETOPS207. RJCN does not have a TAF available so I wouldn't plan around it. It lacks ATC communication facilities on site and it is has a very small apron (100x160m), which you would find hard to squeeze your 777 in with other traffic around . I would skip on UHPP although it is generally a good idea to have one closer to the mid point. Reason being all these flights bypass Russian airspace for a reason ($?) and while not a real issue in an emergency, if PANC and RJCC cover my route well, it makes sense to plan to handle any emergency within Anchorage/Fukuoka if possible. The Pacific is an area I am new to myself but I am trying to put together what I know or have learned and probably will make a guide similar to Part 2 to cover flight planning and FMC programming, which is not really different but it will probably have more than 2 ETOPS alternates, Critical Points etc. Best regards, Belisar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belisar 126 Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 At my carrier R220 is a non-etops required airway. Probably because PASY is considered, but being a Mil airport is probably ignored by the default 777 config in PFPX. With PASY in, the ETOPS segment get down to 39nm/6minutes roughly at default PFPX data, which means it is probably because PFPX does not consider the higher TAS as you drift down. It makes sense in that case that R220 is probably not subject to ETOPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ck777 0 Posted October 2, 2013 Author Share Posted October 2, 2013 Belisar, This is such great information, thanks so much for a thorough explanation. You provided great explanations why certain airports are better to use than others, which is so helpful. I look forward to getting home tonight and opening up PFPX and looking at this more. Just out of curiosity and did a google image search of PASY. Sure is a remote area and I did see a picture of American Airlines diverting. I can't imagine it happens all that much. Thanks again! CK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ck777 0 Posted October 2, 2013 Author Share Posted October 2, 2013 Hi Belisar, Just curious but how did you determine to use RJCC? That airport never came up under my adequate ETOP airports. Did you look for airports that were close to RJCN or in Fukuoka airspace that had were suitable for a 777? Thanks again CK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belisar 126 Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Hi CK, Yes, I checked RJCN information, and I was not satisfied with it , so I was looking for major airports that were close. RJCC came up. It was a little more to the south than other closer alternatives to RJCN, but it was larger and because it covered my route well I was more confident with it. For example, RJCM was closer, but it had a restriction on runway use due to constructions from 12z to 23z daily until December this year. I thought Sapporo being a major airport, would not have significant restrictions or pose limitations in case of an emergency. Unlike the Atlantic where I basically use a short list of most used ETOPS alternates for routes from Europe to North and South America, the Pacific is new territory for me so I have to do some quick research on the airports. The process might be just a little slower when I plan a route, but it also helps me to get familiar with the airspace and what is where. PFPX list of adequate airports is concerned more with runway length than other information. It is used just to define your ETOPS segment. When it comes to the actual ETOPS alternates a little research for the most appropriate alternative is in order. Part of the fun I guess I would skip all airports with TAF not available because without a TAF in place I have not idea if the airport will be above minima at the time of use. It is a quick way to filter out airports in the area, Best regards, Belisar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre95 14 Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Hello, I though B777 was ETOPS 207 only on Pacific area. Right? Cheers Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belisar 126 Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Hi Pierre, FAR 121 Appendix P http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/121/appendix-P ------- (h) 207-minute ETOPS in the North Pacific Area of Operations. (1) The FAA grants approval to conduct ETOPS with maximum diversion times up to 207 minutes in the North Pacific Area of Operations as an extension to 180-minute ETOPS authority to be used on an exception basis. This exception may be used only on a flight-by-flight basis when an ETOPS Alternate Airport is not available within 180 minutes for reasons such as political or military concerns; volcanic activity; temporary airport conditions; and airport weather below dispatch requirements or other weather related events. (2) The nearest available ETOPS Alternate Airport within 207 minutes diversion time must be specified in the dispatch or flight release. ------- My understanding is you try to solve the situation with ETOPS180, and if not happy with what you see, go for ETOPS 207 . The reasons are so broad that basically you can go with that extra 15% any time you wish. Belisar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skysurfer 6 Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 At my carrier R220 is a non-etops required airway. Why it is not ETOPS for you guys? We use it very often on 180 mins with refile over NYMPH or NIPPI. KEWR GAYEL J95 STOMP J63 SYR YCF YYB J490 YTS YYU NCA19 YGX NCA19 YZF NCA19 CHAPO FAI ENM MARCC R338 NATES R220 NUBDA R220 NANAC Y810 JAMES Y810 KETAR Y811 MELON RJAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skysurfer 6 Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Belisar, This is such great information, thanks so much for a thorough explanation. You provided great explanations why certain airports are better to use than others, which is so helpful. I look forward to getting home tonight and opening up PFPX and looking at this more. Just out of curiosity and did a google image search of PASY. Sure is a remote area and I did see a picture of American Airlines diverting. I can't imagine it happens all that much. Thanks again! CK It depends on OpSpecs. We use PASY almost every day weather and NOTAM permitting. If your company has PASY listed in the OpSpecs so go ahead and use it, if not, you may want to find something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ck777 0 Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 Belisar, Thanks so much for explaining your thinking when choosing an airport; I find it really interesting. Thanks for all the great information; it's been really helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougsnow 50 Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Why it is not ETOPS for you guys? We use it very often on 180 mins with refile over NYMPH or NIPPI. KEWR GAYEL J95 STOMP J63 SYR YCF YYB J490 YTS YYU NCA19 YGX NCA19 YZF NCA19 CHAPO FAI ENM MARCC R338 NATES R220 NUBDA R220 NANAC Y810 JAMES Y810 KETAR Y811 MELON RJAA Our engine out circles are at 443 NMs, and at 443, the engine out circles overlap with UHPP and RJCM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skysurfer 6 Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Our engine out circles are at 443 NMs, and at 443, the engine out circles overlap with UHPP and RJCM. Ok, make sense. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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