The Great Catalina Experiment

[Thrud 0]

We'll do a period panel but we simply will not do a full ww2 version with the guns, bombs, radio corner, engineers cabin, navigation table.

:cry:

i just lost intrest in this project :cry:

thank you all for your work, but your product is not for me.

my hopes where high based on the quailty of work but my hopes were dashed with that comment. :cry: you came so close.

[Guest Dag]

Dag... you scoundrel, lol.

We'll do a period panel but we simply will not do a full ww2 version with the guns, bombs, radio corner, engineers cabin, navigation table. The period panel will feature simple instruments, the DC3 ap (it was used a lot) but we simply can't go a lot further, the market is simply not there.

Yeah, I'm a scoundrel, I have to use dirty tricks to get my stock standard late model PBY-5A Well, it's just my personal opinion an I believe also the opinion of many others. You are the ones to decide what has a market or not but I still believe there's a market for a "real" PBY. I guess I'll just have to wait and see what you come up with and then plead Andrey for a radar/turreted version

Thanks

[GOZR 0]

"We'll do a period panel but we simply will not do a full ww2 version with the guns, bombs, radio corner, engineers cabin, navigation table."

Arrg!! well i was waiting for this as well I'm terribly saddened.. Sry guys

[Thrud 0]

think of all the FSX missions that could have been made.

perhaps you have some market reseach/data of the type of PBY's your customers prefer that we don't know about which is why you are choosing this direction of development.

[foreigndevil 0]

Dag... you scoundrel, lol.

We'll do a period panel but we simply will not do a full ww2 version with the guns, bombs, radio corner, engineers cabin, navigation table. The period panel will feature simple instruments, the DC3 ap (it was used a lot) but we simply can't go a lot further, the market is simply not there.

Will be nice to have both an 'authentic' WW2 version and other versions! Great!

[IanP 0]

perhaps you have some market reseach/data of the type of PBY's your customers prefer that we don't know about which is why you are choosing this direction of development.

It's more market research about what sells and what doesn't. Considering that most people I know of who have developed "authentic" aircraft (either modern or classics) are then asked "where's the button to bring up the default autopilot, I can't cope with the one you installed / not having one" and "where's the GPS clickspot"... It is, unfortunately, a very small (albeit vociferous) market that like navigating using the most advanced navigation tool of an NDB receiver and cares about a full period interior.

I'm in agreement with the people who would prefer a "pure classic" version, but I can definately see why developers would class it as a lot of work for very few extra sales.

Ian P.

[Thrud 0]

it just seems conflicting to me is all. this is an extreme example; "wow, did you see that sopwith camel they are working on? -yeah, it looks great. i hope it has GPS or i won't buy it."

my point is, i think the people that are interested in the plane are interested in how it was rather than how it has been modified.

In the same way that i would expect there not to be a GPS in a sopwith camel if i were to buy one, i would also not expect one in the pby.

another example:

the stock FSX gumman goose. if you look around the VC there is no GPS visible, it has one if i choose to use it by hitting the GPS button but it is not seen installed in a panel that would kill the immersion of flying in an earlier time period. i have the choice of not clicking the button to bring it up the GPS. If it was installed in the panel i would not have that choice. In the goose case, it's a win/win scenario; older pit but the ability to use new stuff is there.

[GOZR 0]

Why don't you work together it seems that Thrud have more knowledge on this particular aircraft i think he can be a good use in the dev or beta test team IMO.. And we all are going to have a killer product.. S~

[IanP 0]

In the same way that i would expect there not to be a GPS in a sopwith camel if i were to buy one, i would also not expect one in the pby.

I don't think Mathijs said it would have a GPS visible, all I believe is that he said there would be no wartime interior modelled, but the panel would have period gauges.

another example:

the stock FSX gumman goose. if you look around the VC there is no GPS visible,

No, but it does have a full set of nice glowy yellow LEDs from a default Bendix-King radio stack including twin NAV radios and a full three-axis autopilot. Not exactly as fitted to a Goose when first delivered.

All I'm saying is that my experience, along with most FS developers that I know (I'm not a developer, unless you count my freaky Gmax tent, I just beta test and review), is that the vast majority of the FS market are less interested in full period accuracy than usability.

Ian P.

[GOZR 0]

Well i complitely disagree with that statement

"the vast majority of the FS market are less interested in full period accuracy than usability. "

First the vast mojority will not get a Catalina and secondary We shouldn't place down the community if given a choice i bet they would go for full period accuracy if the choice is given if they want to get in GPS or fantasy pits well there are other planes as well or the fantasy catalina.

Poll are good for this imo

All for the good

[IanP 0]

Well i complitely disagree with that statement

Which market are you basing your disagreement on? The tiny percentage of FS users who regularly use online forums and boards? The slightly larger percentage who purchase products online, or by far the vast majority who don't even know that 99.9% of FS products are available, because they buy box sets from their local games store?

Aerosoft, the same as any publisher who deals with the offline as well as online market, has to target all of these, not just the "hardcore" tiny minority.

Ian P.

[GOZR 0]

So you mean that the catalina will be like a 40 + $ for sale in the store next to my place? ( For example )

If not that mean it will be for a minority that wish to have the choice and have a real simulation with accurate planes.

Btw i think people that search the Catalina are already a minority imo. The goose is there for the majority.

I can be completely in the wrong but why not doing a Poll.?

[IanP 0]

Simply for the fact that it is on a shelf, people will buy it. The same is not true online, where people will look for a specific product. Therefore your analogy unfortunately doesn't stand up.

You can run as many polls here, or at any other site, as you like - you're still only looking at the tiny percentage of potential sales who are looking at your poll and yes, the majority of people reading this thread would probably vote for a fully detailed WW2 model (or preferably every model ever made, regardless of the return on the development time for the design team). So what? If that's 10% of the market for the product you're lucky. 70% of respondees to it want a military version (I'd vote for it!)? That's 7% of the potential market.

The figures above are representative, not actual, because I don't know Aerosoft's sales figures. Mathijs, however, does and he's already answered the question.

Ian P.

[GOZR 0]

OK so you think that the Catalina will sale more on stores than online.? do they have a project to make it onsale for the stores? this are just questions.

But anyway we can argue for ever but i bet many are desapointed and will wait for a ww2 version for the simulator to simulate the real goodies.

As well i will not get the fantasy Catalina. and will look elsewhere for the real deal for this particular plane or not.

[IanP 0]

Most Aerosoft products are both boxed and download editions and I can see no reason why the Cat shouldn't be, but only the developers and publishers can answer that question. Do I think it will sell more in shops than online? Judging by other companies' sales figures, yes, by some margin although it will take longer. There are more simmers who don't buy download products than do, but they don't tend to buy in a glut in the first week of release, unlike online customers.

I think a few are disappointed, most couldn't really care less and, of those who want a 100% historically accurate version, the majority will buy it anyway if it is any good.

I'm off to bed. Have a good one!

Ian P.

[foreigndevil 0]

Let's hope the Cat will look and feel as authentic as possible, i.e. we should feel as if we are in a real aircraft; whether it has a GPS or not, or a full WW2 panel does not matter that much to me, I don't use GPS and prefer to fly VFR and with the use of maps. I like to look at the landscape instead of at a GPS screen!

[maverickNL 0]

Let's hope the Cat will look and feel as authentic as possible, i.e. we should feel as if we are in a real aircraft; whether it has a GPS or not, or a full WW2 panel does not matter that much to me, I don't use GPS and prefer to fly VFR and with the use of maps. I like to look at the landscape instead of at a GPS screen!

indeed so get rid of the GPS

[Snave 466]

it just seems conflicting to me is all. this is an extreme example; "wow, did you see that sopwith camel they are working on? -yeah, it looks great. i hope it has GPS or i won't buy it."

my point is, i think the people that are interested in the plane are interested in how it was rather than how it has been modified.

In the same way that i would expect there not to be a GPS in a sopwith camel if i were to buy one, i would also not expect one in the pby.

another example:

the stock FSX gumman goose. if you look around the VC there is no GPS visible, it has one if i choose to use it by hitting the GPS button but it is not seen installed in a panel that would kill the immersion of flying in an earlier time period. i have the choice of not clicking the button to bring it up the GPS. If it was installed in the panel i would not have that choice. In the goose case, it's a win/win scenario; older pit but the ability to use new stuff is there.

I see where you are coming from. But FSX models the modern world, a modern word that has veteran and vintage aircraft in it, for sure, but one which is interactive by virtue of navaids, ATC services, airports, runways, sceneries and other aircraft that simply were not present when your idea of a product was current. So I ask you, what is actually the more faux? Flying a period aircraft that has modern navaids, or flying a WWII Catalina complete with fake bombs? Can you really say you only fly vintage aircraft using a stopwatch, map and celestial navigation? How do you fly the plane while you navigate from the astrodome, because you don't use an autopilot... do you?

No, don't worry, it's a rhetorical question... :wink:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1171315/M/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1120963/M/

B-17s, with modern navaids

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1190828/M/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0338541/M/

Goose and Mallard, with modern navaids

and, most worryingly for the credibility of your argument are these:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1139645/M/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0923763/M/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0812788/M/

In order for these aircraft to operate in TODAYS skies, changes have to be made. I see clear focus in the design choices of the Catalina team.

A much more simple question is: Please prove that the demand is there for WWII aircraft. I go to the store and the shelves are packed with ally tube clones from Airmush, Boring, Lackheed and McTavish-Dougal. I see no scenery sets for FSX to emulate ANYTHING AT ALL to do with WWII. That is most assuredly the job for Combat Flight Sim, or these days, its replacements.

You simply have no justification for your argument. But if you share your research with Aerosoft there might be a chance that, further down the line, if the sales of the Cat are successful, there may be an opportunity to add on the vintage side, having ameliorated much of the development costs with the earlier version. It's simple `business`, so do feel free to convert your personal preference to a substantive commercial argument.

But of course, NOT buying the Catalina in the first instance also downplays your own argument, as that's another sale that won't go toward ameliorating the production and development costs, making it that much less likely that there will be any follow-on development. Do you think they keep developing the Beaver because it doesn't sell..?

The expression `cut off your nose to spite your own face` could well apply in this situation. Choosing to purchase or not is your decision. But doing so when there is nothing else around even on the horizon likely to meet your peculiar (as in individual, not strange) needs means only you are denying yourself the opportunity to fly the Cat in FSX?

[IanP 0]

And here's where I disagree with you, Simon, because the market is there for accurate WW2 aircraft, otherwise Bill Rambow would spend less time in the motorhome, we'd have a lot fewer Mustangs and Spitfires flying around the FS skies.

The fact that the market is there, however, doesn't make it that big. As you say, the tubes will outsell them every time. Most people who buy complex models then never use them, either. There is, however, an ever increasing market for "middle ground" aircraft - not complex to operate, with familiar controls and gauges, but different from the MS defaults and better quality than the vast majority of freeware. The Beaver fits into that category nicely, as does the Katana and, hopefully, the Cat. That's the expanding market, that's what all but a minority of Aerosoft products fit into. It's just sensible business.

Anyway, I think I've more than said my piece now, so I'm sitting back to see how the Flying Feline comes along. 8)

Cheers,

Ian P.

[Snave 466]

Ian,

True, true, but let's be honest about MAAM Sim though: If that had been a commercial success then its commercial goal - of providing a new engine for the real grounded aircraft in MAAM's real hangar would long ago have been met - and I have no doubt that every flying museum would have been beating a path to developers doors looking for their own slice of the lucrative action..!

Yes, the WWII remains a sub-genre of the niche market that is the small sector of the FS market that likes addons. I don't see the much lauded (and deservedly so) Real Air Spit buying the developers Ferraris or holiday homes in Antigua, do you?

One should not presume from market volubility or awards that commercial success is a natural corollary. There are very, very few WWII projects that have made the grade in commercial terms.

[Thrud 0]

I don't see the much lauded (and deservedly so) Real Air Spit buying the developers Ferraris or holiday homes in Antigua, do you?

i think they made it just for the love of the plane.

the economic term of 'the long tail" might appy here.

example; from amazon "We sold more books today that didn't sell at all yesterday than we sold today of all the books that did sell yesterday."

having lots of unique aircraft may make you more money in the long run than making stuff everyone wants. the analogy may be a bit off in that amazon has more unique items than Aerosoft has unique items, but i hope you get my meaning.

[Snave 466]

I do indeed, and I agree that a vintage cockpit and full vintage version would be a logical `Expansion Pack` move by Aerosoft, subject to the Cat being a sales success in the first place. There's not much history of payware flying boats in the FS world, off the top of my head I can only think of the Boeing 314 Clipper, and THAT was truly a labout of love not a commercial proposition. If the Cat is succesful in opening up this interesting avenue of development in sim-dom (and FSX does make for much better water-modelling than previous versions so it should do well, especially if DX10/FSX offers even more water-like water again - we need varying wave states and currents to really pull this off) then hopefully we might see a trend for FB's and Amphibs.

But I still think you need to put a more convincing case than "I want..."

[Thrud 0]

subject to the Cat being a sales success in the first place.

that brings us back to our original discussion. it seems we have different views on what will make the Cat successful in the 1st place; vintage version vs modern version.

[IanP 0]

To which the answer has already been given. The WW2 specific version will NOT sell in sufficient quantities to make it commercially viable.

Yup. We're back to Mathijs's post about two pages ago!!!!! :roll:

Ian P.

[GOZR 0]

Well this is not in our power, To me i would make the two combined . Now on what the stores version CD etc.. for more than 30 $ for just one aircraft it is not a good deal at all maybe for the two versions and the goodies coming with it it will be worse the buy at the stores. If it's only one modern plane well the online would be enough imo for ~~22 $.

The best way right now it is not to decide for them since we are all just regular members "poster" but maybe show that the ww2 actually would sell as well . Now the two combined would guaranty the sell for all and the best way to go IMO.

Now if they want the ww2 they can have the great Knowledge that Thrud have for that plane and a good help.

So Cheers for the team and i'm sure they need it.