F-16 Radar/landing problems

[benpilot 0]

Hey at all!

First I wanted to say THANKS to Aerosoft for this amazing addon!!!! It's fun to fly the F-16, but I've 2 questions:

-I searched in the forum and in the manual but i couldn't find any informations how to spot a target on the radar. If I click at the buttons round the diplay

nothing happens.... and sometimes I turn on the radar, any target is locked! How do you control the target locking?

-If I try to land the F-16 with the required 130kts (clean F-16C, 10% fuel), I'm to slow and I've got a to high sinkrate, so I need a very high angel of

approach so it's gonna be a hard landing........

I watched a few HUD-videos from real F-16 and there weren't any problems, so how do you do the perfect landing? Please help me

regards,

Ben

[saprintz 82]

Hey at all!

First I wanted to say THANKS to Aerosoft for this amazing addon!!!! It's fun to fly the F-16, but I've 2 questions:

-I searched in the forum and in the manual but i couldn't find any informations how to spot a target on the radar. If I click at the buttons round the diplay

nothing happens.... and sometimes I turn on the radar, any target is locked! How do you control the target locking?

-If I try to land the F-16 with the required 130kts (clean F-16C, 10% fuel), I'm to slow and I've got a to high sinkrate, so I need a very high angel of

approach so it's gonna be a hard landing........

I watched a few HUD-videos from real F-16 and there weren't any problems, so how do you do the perfect landing? Please help me

regards,

Ben

Hi Ben. For landing speed, well... actually, don't use speed as your guide. ;-) Use AoA instead, as it gives a constant idea of the aircraft's current energy state. AoA data is given in two places: 1)on the HUD, next to the flight path marker, when the gear is down, there's a little e-shaped bracket that slides up and down the left side of the flight path marker. Keep that centered, and with the correct angle of descent pegged in there also, you're good to go. The other way to quickly get AoA info is the backup indexer lights just to the left of the HUD glass. Go for green!!

Target locking... definitely I would recommend that you check out the pinned radar topic up top. If there's anything you need that's not up there or not in the manual, head on back over here and I'll be happy to help.

Scott

[benpilot 0]

Hi Ben. For landing speed, well... actually, don't use speed as your guide. ;-) Use AoA instead, as it gives a constant idea of the aircraft's current energy state. AoA data is given in two places: 1)on the HUD, next to the flight path marker, when the gear is down, there's a little e-shaped bracket that slides up and down the left side of the flight path marker. Keep that centered, and with the correct angle of descent pegged in there also, you're good to go. The other way to quickly get AoA info is the backup indexer lights just to the left of the HUD glass. Go for green!!

Target locking... definitely I would recommend that you check out the pinned radar topic up top. If there's anything you need that's not up there or not in the manual, head on back over here and I'll be happy to help.

Scott

OK thanks Scott, you're right, I shouldn't use the speed as guid, but the AOA changes with the speed......

but thanks

[saprintz 82]

OK thanks Scott, you're right, I shouldn't use the speed as guid, but the AOA changes with the speed......

but thanks

Exactly. AoA does change for speed. But it let's you know, basically, the angle at which the air is going across your wing -- far from technical definition!! -- and thus tells you if you're at the proper attitude for landing (the proper amount of nose up). In the F-16 it's 13 degrees AoA that is ideal at touchdown, though the approach is (as I've seen it more often) flown at 11 degrees. This is all important because 1) on-speed AoA let's you fly at the slowest possible speed that is not dangerously close to stalling the wing, and 2) it puts your nose up at the proper angle to avoid tail-strike and to aero-brake. Basically, what is nice about all this is that the same AoA is always "correct" for approach and touchdown, regardless of fuel amount, armaments, etc. So you don't really even need to do the calculations about what your landing speed should be, in knots, for a particular aircraft weight. AoA has, in a sense, done that for you.

Scott

[mangold 0]

1)on the HUD, next to the flight path marker, when the gear is down, there's a little e-shaped bracket that slides up and down the left side of the flight path marker. Keep that centered, and with the correct angle of descent pegged in there also, you're good to go.

Guten Tag Scott, thanks for this excellent info.

If I keep flight path marker within upper and lower end of AoA bracket the wing flies aerodynamically safe. Correct?

How many degrees AoA tolerance represents upper and lower end of bracket.

Can one use the gun cross movement versus a step ladder line to determine the tolerance?

Another question. Can f-16 radar "see" online traffic in IVAO and/or VATSIM networks?

Günter.

[saprintz 82]

Guten Tag Scott, thanks for this excellent info.

If I keep flight path marker within upper and lower end of AoA bracket the wing flies aerodynamically safe. Correct?

How many degrees AoA tolerance represents upper and lower end of bracket.

Can one use the gun cross movement versus a step ladder line to determine the tolerance?

Another question. Can f-16 radar "see" online traffic in IVAO and/or VATSIM networks?

Günter.

Hi!

The top of the E-bracket represents 11 degrees AoA; the bottom is 15. I'm not sure at what AoA the F-16's wing stalls, but I would definitely keep it between those numbers on approach, preferably between 11 and 13. At much more than 14 AoA the flight path marker drops off the HUD glass anyway. So, I personally fly the pattern / approach at 11 AoA, with the flight path marker at the top of the E-bracket. I do this all the way until the flare (maybe 10 -20 ft. off the ground) where I pull off a little power, and I then "walk" the flight path marker up the runway, towards the green HUD horizon line. Cutting the throttle back a little just as you're pulling the nose up and slowing the rate of descent means that you'll definitely bleed off speed, so you'll pull in the remaining 2 degrees of AoA at that point. This technique also helps to avoid the dreaded "bounce," which can quickly lead to "uh-oh, not enough runway to stop."

As to the gun cross question, I'm sorry but I'm not positive I'm really grasping what it is you're asking when you say this:

"Can one use the gun cross movement versus a step ladder line to determine the tolerance?"

Well, if you're wings level, centered on a 3 degree glideslope, with the flight path marker stable on the runway numbers, then yes, if you add that 3 (from below the horizon) to the number of degrees of pitch you have (how high up the nose and thus gun cross are), you'll get your current AoA. Distance from gun cross to flight path marker, in degrees, is basically (though not technically) your AoA. And all of this is (yet another) benefit of a properly scaled and positioned HUD -- a degree is a degree. This is essential to conformality, and conformality + collimation means great HUD accuracy and realistic symbol behavior, something that's new to any MSFS aircraft. (We should all be glad that Mathijs and Stefan were able to get the collimation half of the equation working. It really makes a tremendous difference!!)

As to online traffic, I myself do not fly online so can't confirm or deny the possibility of radar locking. Someone on this forum, however, (I believe it was dswo?) said that he does successfully lock up targets online.

Happy holidays!

Scott

[JamesChams 108]

Mr. Scott,

I hope you don't mind if I chime in here ...

... I'm not sure at what AoA the F-16's wing stalls....

All Wings stall at an AOA of 18 Deg.'s. But, with Thrust-to-Weight Ratio's of 1 to 1 (or greater) like the F-16; She can stay a-float without meeting the ground (Stalling) and exceed the AOA to the 20's.

Although, using the AOA as a gauge for flying it, in it's energy curve (something Glider pilots do well all the time), the goal with landing is always use POWER for Altitude and Pitch for Airspeed. This is the reverse logic of what people often think of in an aircraft (Power for Airspeed and Pitch for Altitude) but it is what aviators actually do. To illustrate my point, Microsoft has included a Section in the LEARNING CENTER: Lessons (Lesson 4: Slow Flight) which will teach you how this is done. Master this and you'll have NO problems landing any aircraft; you'll just have to deal with the difference in the power curves for aircraft like the F-16 vs. a Cessna 172. Then go do Lesson 6: Landings which will test your practical knowledge of this and make you a better Sim pilot.

For the Rest about the Aerosoft's F-16 X HUD, AI, etc. - Mr. Scott and others here are the experts.

Good Luck!

Chime ended...

[benpilot 0]

I do this all the way until the flare (maybe 10 -20 ft. off the ground) where I pull off a little power, and I then "walk" the flight path marker up the runway, towards the green HUD horizon line. Cutting the throttle back a little just as you're pulling the nose up and slowing the rate of descent means that you'll definitely bleed off speed, so you'll pull in the remaining 2 degrees of AoA at that point.

Scott

Hi

the approch is clear now, it looks much better now!!!! ......until the falre

If I do the approach like u told us, I got no speed/altitude to flare. The sinkrate is so high, I can't get the flight path marker to the horizontline, ca.60 ft over the ground the flight path marker goes down until i can't see it and again it's not the softest landing

but thank u Scott for the previous help!

Ben

[saprintz 82]

Hi

the approch is clear now, it looks much better now!!!! ......until the falre

If I do the approach like u told us, I got no speed/altitude to flare. The sinkrate is so high, I can't get the flight path marker to the horizontline, ca.60 ft over the ground the flight path marker goes down until i can't see it and again it's not the softest landing

but thank u Scott for the previous help!

Ben

Maybe you're starting this process, the pulling off power and pulling the nose up, a little too high? Without being in the sim right now to check, I think I start to pull of power before I actually start the flare. If you're coming in on final at 11 AoA, this should work. If you're coming in at 13, I probably wouldn't touch the power at all until the wheels are on the ground.

If I have time I'll try to post a video of how I do it, but I'm quite busy with other things at the moment.

Oh, just thought of this: this is not a bad way to do it ;-)

He seems to probably know what he's doing, heheh.

[iRay 1]

Here something of a normal landing patern..............

Main Lesson

Most of the time there are entry points in the CTR. Reporting on these points is mandatory. From an entry point we will proceed directly to outerdownwind, towards Initial. One exception to this is when entering the CTR from entry point A. You are allowed to proceed directly to the initial point.

Circuit altitude is 2000ft MSL. So we make sure we are at this altitude PRIOR entering the CTR.

From the entry point we proceed to the initial point what is likely to be a point where to report. Here we decent to 1500 ft (or 1000 for straight in) and state our intentions. Now we should be ligned up with the southern taxi track.

Next is the 'Overhead Break':

- Fly over the runway heading until half way down the runway

- Determine a landline or landmark for downwind leg

- Slowly reduce power to idle and simmultainiously roll aprox. 70deg AOB to start a 3G turn

Downwind:

- Rollout on your predetermined downwind point

- check ARDS

Height: 1500 MSL

Range: Wingtip touching the runway?

Direction: Paralel to the runway. correcting for crosswinds?

Speed: 200-220 kts

- Power as required for 220kts SLF

- When abeam runway treshold

- Landing check:

Gear: DOWN

Power: As Required

Fuel: Sufficient

Base turn:

- on 45 deg on runway treshold

- roll 45 deg AOB and simultainiously decent with FPM -3 to -6 deg

- On base, Airbrakes as required

Final:

- Final check:

Gear: Down

Brakes: As rquired

Clearance: Obtained

- 11-13 AOA

- 3deg glide slope

Complete landing as usual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uyAG-RMS2U...player_embedded

[A36ApacheII 0]

Hey at all!

First I wanted to say THANKS to Aerosoft for this amazing addon!!!! It's fun to fly the F-16, but I've 2 questions:

-I searched in the forum and in the manual but i couldn't find any informations how to spot a target on the radar. If I click at the buttons round the diplay

nothing happens.... and sometimes I turn on the radar, any target is locked! How do you control the target locking?

-If I try to land the F-16 with the required 130kts (clean F-16C, 10% fuel), I'm to slow and I've got a to high sinkrate, so I need a very high angel of

approach so it's gonna be a hard landing........

I watched a few HUD-videos from real F-16 and there weren't any problems, so how do you do the perfect landing? Please help me

regards,

Ben

I usually head toward the runway on final at 150kts and 9 degrees angle of attack (AOA). At flare I slew the flight path marker (FPM) from my intended touch down point to the opposite end of the runway (increasing AOA to 13 degrees AOA as the FPM moves), while simultaneously adjusting throttle for a target speed of 135kts (sometimes it gets as low as 120kts). You do not need 15 degrees AOA doing it this way. When the gear touches the runway throttle is cut, but I hold the nose up for aerodynamic braking to 80kts and then let the airplane decelerate naturally to 60kts before braking to taxi speed.

It takes practice if you are new to the F-16, so try it on a longer runway (say 1.8 miles or so), until you can make a landing on a 0.7 mile runway everytime (less then half of the 1.8 miles runway).

To find a target on radar first make sure you have AI functional and the MFDs are on or you will not see anything. Select A-A on the ICP and swing radar range out to 80 miles before clicking the upper left hand corner of the MFD itself (makes it easier to click the scope). The target you are attempting to lock must be in front of the F-16. The 'godseye' map MFD on the right is not a place to lock targets, as it sees and plots positions 360 degrees around your plane (unrealistic as that is).

[deltaleader71 5]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uyAG-RMS2U...player_embedded

Nice video...As you can see the F-16 did a fairly short approach holding 170-200 kts until final. The Aerosoft F-16 cannot do this, it drops like a rock as soon as you start to do a tight turn at low speeds. If you add throttle to hold alt, the plane just speeds up. From what I have learned putting in countless hours flying this F-16 is that you need to give yourself a lot of room to make turns at low speeds. I still think the flight model is just off a bit, I should be able to do a short approach!

[A36ApacheII 0]

Nice video...As you can see the F-16 did a fairly short approach holding 170-200 kts until final. The Aerosoft F-16 cannot do this, it drops like a rock as soon as you start to do a tight turn at low speeds. If you add throttle to hold alt, the plane just speeds up. From what I have learned putting in countless hours flying this F-16 is that you need to give yourself a lot of room to make turns at low speeds. I still think the flight model is just off a bit, I should be able to do a short approach!

I do not have this problem. I watched the video and the F-16 does the turn with his nose low. I do the same thing and I have made base at 215 ktas with a short final to a touchdown at 130 ktas.

[grunik 0]

For those still having problems understanding the landing procedures for the F-16, I found these two sites that helped me go from breaking the back gear on every landing to greasing every landing without thought. The first one even has visuals (which made it all too easy)

Read them in this order......the first being an explanation of landing using Falcon 4.0 as visuals

http://www.87th.org/modules.php?name=Secti...le&artid=22

The second is an F-16 instructor writing an article to f-16 pilots about landing procedures

http://www.pabco.net/archives/1987/article...ding/index.html

These sites are great, and they add to the excellent explanation given by those who posted above.

Thank you to everyone who has taken time to help us newbies learn to fly.

[crim3d 0]

It's exciting to re-read the Bill Dryden articles and see that this time the flying experience is very close to reality in a way that Falcon4 could never think of to achieve.

[intrepid 2]

To all of the people involved in this Thread ,,Thank you

Thank you very much

I have been struggling to land "with style" and with the info received

here ,I have finally been able to "GREASE ER IN" without over running

The runway

Two thumbs everybody

Randy

[benpilot 0]

Hey

The Falcon 4.0 manual is great!

Now I have a beautiful approach - Thanks!

Does anybody have tipps for the flare? Maybe when you should flare or something?

Ben