Casen_ 0 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Hello, I was wondering how to build routes for older aircraft such as the CS 707. I don't want to use the CIVA INS right now, so that leaves me with VOR, NDB, and DME navigation. I have added the aircraft template to show I only have VOR, ADF, ILS, VHF, UHF. When I try to make routes, it likes to include airways and intersections, but it does not tell me how to read the intersections. Is there a way to have it make a route based off the VORs? Basically, Fly outbound (random airport) Intersect VOR at 227 radial for x miles. Intersect VOR2 at 256 radial inbound. Pass over VOR2 and fly 300 radial outbound for x miles. Etc, etc until I get to the destination airport? Right now, I am trying to build a flight from TNCC to KIAD. TNCC has a nice VOR just to its west, and I want to fly a radial of that north away from TNCC, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how to make PFPX fly a radial from a VOR. It appears to give me intersections based on that VOR, but never tells me the VOR freq, nor the radial to fly to get to them. It only gives me heading and distance changes from waypoint to waypoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpgmultimodal 61 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Hi Casen, PFPX is a flight planner to be used with today's equipment. Anyway when we were flying before the RNAV with conventional equipment we were using an airway system which was based on VORs and NDBs and also there were WPs which were intersections of VOR radials or VOR/DMEs, etc. On some destinations we were flying off airways but today it is not really possible except in some remote places deep in Africa or South America. So you have to obey the rules of the air and I cannot immagine doing today a TNCC to KIAD off airways using your own WPs. If you want to fly with a 707 TNCC/KIAD it is possible but you have to follow a route like: EAST1 AGLIS A315 ONDAS UA315 DUSAN UA567 BEROX UW7 PTA UA554 SEKAR L450 GTK L452 OXANA AR8 ECG DCT RIC BARIN1 Now there would be another problem if you have only VOR and NDB receivers on board. Sometimes the distance between 2 VORs could exceed the reception range and it is not going to be possible to know your exact position. ATC is not going to like it!!! (Between PTA and ECG the distance is 1035 Nm). If for fun you really want to fly that route conventional you would have to fly through Panama, Mexico, Cuba, Miami and you are going to double your distance. Regards, JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emi 5161 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Hi, you can simply select to create NON RNAV routes in the advanced routeeditor in PFPX, then it'll create non rnav routes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casen_ 0 Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Hi, you can simply select to create NON RNAV routes in the advanced routeeditor in PFPX, then it'll create non rnav routes. I tried that. It still filled up with intersections and gave me no proper idea on how to use those intersections. I know the first two are a straight radial from the VOR on Curacao, but oddly that VOR is not at all listed in the route. Hi Casen, PFPX is a flight planner to be used with today's equipment. Anyway when we were flying before the RNAV with conventional equipment we were using an airway system which was based on VORs and NDBs and also there were WPs which were intersections of VOR radials or VOR/DMEs, etc. On some destinations we were flying off airways but today it is not really possible except in some remote places deep in Africa or South America. So you have to obey the rules of the air and I cannot immagine doing today a TNCC to KIAD off airways using your own WPs. If you want to fly with a 707 TNCC/KIAD it is possible but you have to follow a route like: EAST1 AGLIS A315 ONDAS UA315 DUSAN UA567 BEROX UW7 PTA UA554 SEKAR L450 GTK L452 OXANA AR8 ECG DCT RIC BARIN1 Now there would be another problem if you have only VOR and NDB receivers on board. Sometimes the distance between 2 VORs could exceed the reception range and it is not going to be possible to know your exact position. ATC is not going to like it!!! (Between PTA and ECG the distance is 1035 Nm). If for fun you really want to fly that route conventional you would have to fly through Panama, Mexico, Cuba, Miami and you are going to double your distance. Regards, JP I know I know all that. I like the old planes. I have made a VOR based route but it still had a 300 mile gap between Curacao and Cuba. This is easily navigatible by the doppler navigation radar on the 707. The problem is I cannot get PFPX to tell me the VORs, radials, and distances i would need to fly in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casen_ 0 Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 (FPL-N203FE-IN -B707/M-SDFTUY/C -TNCC1625 -N481F320 PJG DCT CDO DCT PTA DCT GTK DCT PVN DCT ZEF DCT ZQA DCT ZFP DCT COF DCT SGJ DCT SSI DCT CHS DCT FLO DCT IHRJ DCT LVL DCT RIC -KIAD0411 -DOF/150113 REG/N203FE) Here is the route I made. The departure from TNCC is climb to 2000, then left hand turn around 140 degrees until you intercept the PJG VOR at some radial to get to the waypoints that would normally be in there (AGLIS and ONDAS, they are straight off of the VOR). I just want PFPX to be able to tell me "what" radial I would need to fly and for to reach said waypoints. I have taken those waypoints out since I can't get directions to them right now. The Flight Plan output is this: AWY WAYPOINT MT ALT WND/VEL TAS DIST FUEL REM / USED LEG ACC NAME TMP FREQ GS REM POSITION ETO / ATO -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TNCC/11 36 72.9 / 0.4 CURACAO/WILLEMST 2013 N1211.3 W06857.6 ...../..... DCT PJG 290 *CLB 6 72.5 / 0.8 01 00:01 CURACAO 116.70 2007 N1211.8 W06900.7 ...../..... *TOC 005 FL330 276/037 488 246 60.0 / 13.3 38 00:39 -MDCS -40 462 1761 N1615.9 W06926.1 ...../..... DCT CDO 005 *CLB 131 56.0 / 17.3 17 00:56 PUNTA CAUCEDO 114.70 1630 N1826.0 W06940.0 ...../..... DCT PTA 338 FL340 268/047 486 95 52.9 / 20.4 13 01:09 PUERTO PLATA -45 115.10 460 1535 N1945.6 W07034.2 ...../..... DCT GTK 353 FL340 278/047 485 106 49.8 / 23.5 14 01:23 -KZMA GRAND TURK -46 114.20 463 1429 N2126.4 W07108.1 ...../..... DCT PVN 298 FL340 264/049 485 66 47.7 / 25.6 09 01:32 PROVIDENCIALES -46 115.60 440 1363 N2146.3 W07216.0 ...../..... DCT ZEF 309 *CLB 227 40.9 / 32.4 30 02:02 GREAT EXUMA I 112.20 1137 N2333.3 W07551.9 ...../..... DCT ZQA 324 FL360 251/020 479 124 37.3 / 36.0 16 02:18 NASSAU -51 112.70 467 1013 N2501.5 W07726.8 ...../..... DCT ZFP 332 FL360 231/026 478 114 34.2 / 39.1 15 02:33 FREEPORT -51 113.20 475 899 N2633.3 W07841.9 ...../..... DCT COF 322 FL360 253/052 476 144 30.2 / 43.0 18 02:51 PATRICK -53 115.00 450 755 N2814.3 W08036.7 ...../..... DCT SGJ 346 *CLB 110 27.3 / 46.0 14 03:05 -KZJX ST. AUGUSTINE 109.40 645 N2957.4 W08119.8 ...../..... DCT SSI 001 FL370 255/060 473 66 25.6 / 47.7 09 03:14 BRUNSWICK -56 109.80 478 579 N3103.0 W08126.8 ...../..... DCT CHS 039 FL370 243/070 472 132 22.5 / 50.8 15 03:29 CHARLESTON -58 113.50 531 447 N3253.7 W08002.3 ...../..... DCT FLO 021 FL370 242/069 472 83 20.6 / 52.7 10 03:39 FLORENCE -58 115.20 513 364 N3414.0 W07939.4 ...../..... DCT IHRJ 041 FL370 242/074 471 83 18.7 / 54.6 09 03:48 -KZDC ERWIN RW05 -58 108.35 535 281 N3523.3 W07843.6 ...../..... DCT LVL 034 FL370 239/089 471 95 16.6 / 56.7 11 03:59 LAWRENCEVILLE -58 112.90 532 186 N3649.1 W07754.2 ...../..... DCT RIC 044 FL370 240/089 471 50 15.5 / 57.8 05 04:04 RICHMOND -58 114.10 550 136 N3730.1 W07719.2 ...../..... *TOD 346 FL370 240/089 471 16 15.1 / 58.2 02 04:06 -58 471 121 N3744.5 W07727.3 ...../..... BARIN1 DEAND 346 *DES 4 15.0 / 58.3 01 04:07 116 N3748.4 W07729.5 ...../..... BARIN1 COATT 346 *DES 10 14.8 / 58.5 02 04:09 106 N3757.5 W07734.6 ...../..... BARIN1 OGATE 035 *DES 7 14.7 / 58.6 01 04:10 100 N3803.5 W07731.1 ...../..... BARIN1 FALKO 035 *DES 8 14.7 / 58.6 01 04:11 91 N3811.1 W07726.6 ...../..... BARIN1 BRV 035 *DES 10 14.6 / 58.7 02 04:13 BROOKE 114.50 81 N3820.2 W07721.2 ...../..... BARIN1 BARIN 008 *DES 15 14.5 / 58.8 01 04:14 66 N3835.2 W07721.8 ...../..... BARIN1 STAYO 012 *DES 11 14.4 / 58.9 02 04:16 55 N3846.6 W07721.4 ...../..... BARIN1 TRING 012 *DES 15 14.3 / 59.0 03 04:19 39 N3902.0 W07720.9 ...../..... BARIN1 MIXNN 012 *DES 13 14.1 / 59.2 02 04:21 26 N3915.2 W07720.4 ...../..... BARIN1 KIAD/01R 208 312 26 13.2 / 60.1 08 04:29 WASHINGTON DULLE N3856.8 W07727.6 ...../..... I know looking at it, I can figure out the route. Mainly, its depart, fly outbound PJG at 005 radial for either 246 or 246+131 miles. This layout takes me directly to CDO on the PJG VOR which is far too long for the PJG VOR. I am looking for a simple way to add a CDO inbound radial, so it would look like PJG outbound 005 radial for 150 miles CDO inbound (x) radial for 150 miles to split the longer gaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpgmultimodal 61 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 You want to fly PJG/CDO. PFPX gives you MT 005. The distance 377 Nm. You do not need to enter a radial. If you fly FL 340 the VORs should have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpgmultimodal 61 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 You want to fly PJG/CDO. PFPX gives you MT 005. The distance 377 Nm. You do not need to enter a radial. If you fly FL 340 the VORs should have a range of about 230 Nm. you should be in range of one or the other without gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casen_ 0 Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 You want to fly PJG/CDO. PFPX gives you MT 005. The distance 377 Nm. You do not need to enter a radial. If you fly FL 340 the VORs should have a range of about 230 Nm. you should be in range of one or the other without gap. I got that. But thats a shorter use case. Say there was a longer gap on a route I wanted to fly. I'm just asking for inbound/outbound directions of VORs in the flight plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpgmultimodal 61 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 On the OFP you have these informations. Supposing you have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpgmultimodal 61 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 On the OFP you have these informations. Supposing you have a quite long leg between 2 VORs or NDBs. You calculate the drift with the estimate wind and you have your heading. When you are established on the outbound radial you correct your heading and when out of range of the two navigation VORs you continue to that heading. You have set the inbound radial on the next VOR and when in range you adjust your heading if necessary. That was the way we were doing it few decades ago and it worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casen_ 0 Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 On the OFP you have these informations. Supposing you have a quite long leg between 2 VORs or NDBs. You calculate the drift with the estimate wind and you have your heading. When you are established on the outbound radial you correct your heading and when out of range of the two navigation VORs you continue to that heading. You have set the inbound radial on the next VOR and when in range you adjust your heading if necessary. That was the way we were doing it few decades ago and it worked. But I do not see the inbound radial information. That is my issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpgmultimodal 61 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 PJG/CDO outbound PJG 005° and inbound CDO 005°. It is the same value. On PJG you are FROM and on CDO you a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpgmultimodal 61 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 PJG/CDO outbound PJG 005° and inbound CDO 005°. It is the same value. On PJG you are FROM and on CDO you are TO. Sorry about my messages that appea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpgmultimodal 61 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Sorry about my messages that appear to go automatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casen_ 0 Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 PJG/CDO outbound PJG 005° and inbound CDO 005°. It is the same value. On PJG you are FROM and on CDO you are TO. Sorry about my messages that appea I see that now. But that is for direct only. Say I want to fly on an airway though. They usually go from VOR to an intersection to another VOR. If PFPX could just tell me what I need to fly when it tells me the intersection I would be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpgmultimodal 61 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 PFPX gives you the MT from a WP to another and the distance between the 2 WP but would not give you radials or distances from VORs which are not on the route. You have to do that yourself from charts. Here is an example on the attached file: You are on route on UL554 and you do not receive the FROM and TO VORs. We assume you are on that route as you did the wind corrections as explained before. ATC asked you to report on WP AGMEX. You take PJG VOR/DME and you draw the radial on the chart (064°) If you have a DME on board the distance is 87 Nm from PJG. PFPX or no other planner even professionnal would give this type of information. Before the FMS existed when we were planning a route we had do to it that way. Also we were calculating the ETA for each WP and there were not many VORs in Europe. Aicrafts were not all equipped with DMEs and ATC did not have radars which would cover all the airspace. This was in the 70s and early 80s and there were not as much traffic as today. Regards, JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaipanDan 5 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Hi, you can simply select to create NON RNAV routes in the advanced routeeditor in PFPX, then it'll create non rnav routes. This doesn't actually work - PFPX is not capable. I don't know if it's a bug or if it was never programmed to do this, but it doesn't work. It's easy to reproduce: 1. Start creating a route from YBBN to YMML 2. Find->Advanced 3. Tick Non-RNAV 4. Click Find Nothing happens it fails - even though there are plenty of airway choices to build it. However I can successfully build a non-RNAV route myself with the route editor: BN W354 AF W128 LAV W582 GLI W326 TW W359 MDG W137 CWR W654 WG W524 MNG W477 BOL H119 ML and from the OFP what it should have built: AWY WAYPOINT MT ALT WND/VEL TAS DIST FUEL REM / USED LEG ACC NAME TMP FREQ GS REM POSITION ETO / ATO -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- YBBN/01 13 7.7 / 0.1 BRISBANE INTL 767 S2723.1 E15307.0 ...../..... W354 AF 195 *CLB 16 7.2 / 0.5 03 00:03 ARCHERFIELD BRIS 419.0 752 S2734.2 E15301.0 ...../..... *TOC 178 FL200 158/037 362 22 6.9 / 0.9 04 00:07 -08 330 730 S2755.7 E15257.2 ...../..... W128 LAV 178 FL200 163/034 362 10 6.8 / 0.9 02 00:09 LARAVALE -08 117.80 329 720 S2805.4 E15255.5 ...../..... W582 PARCU 203 FL200 166/032 361 36 6.6 / 1.2 06 00:15 -08 339 684 S2834.8 E15232.9 ...../..... W582 GLI 203 FL200 174/028 361 79 6.1 / 1.7 14 00:29 GLEN INNES -09 212.0 339 605 S2940.3 E15141.7 ...../..... W326 TW 197 FL200 185/024 361 95 5.4 / 2.4 17 00:46 TAMWORTH -09 116.00 338 510 S3104.0 E15049.8 ...../..... W359 QDI 200 FL200 190/023 361 30 5.2 / 2.6 05 00:51 QUIRINDI -09 386.0 340 480 S3129.6 E15031.4 ...../..... W359 MDG 205 FL200 256/025 361 80 4.7 / 3.1 14 01:05 MUDGEE -09 112.20 341 400 S3233.7 E14935.6 ...../..... W137 CWR 200 FL200 266/029 360 91 4.1 / 3.7 16 01:21 -YMMM COWRA -09 112.40 342 309 S3350.9 E14838.7 ...../..... W654 YNG 208 FL200 268/031 360 31 3.9 / 3.9 06 01:27 YOUNG -10 269.0 339 278 S3415.0 E14814.8 ...../..... W654 WG 203 FL200 270/033 360 67 3.4 / 4.4 12 01:39 WAGGA WAGGA -10 115.00 340 211 S3509.9 E14728.1 ...../..... W524 COR 216 FL200 270/033 360 73 2.9 / 4.9 13 01:52 COROWA -10 380.0 335 137 S3559.2 E14621.4 ...../..... W524 MNG 214 FL200 282/051 357 78 2.4 / 5.4 14 02:06 MANGALORE -13 113.20 325 59 S3653.2 E14511.7 ...../..... W477 VIOLA 197 *DES 14 2.3 / 5.5 03 02:09 45 S3705.8 E14503.0 ...../..... *TOD 197 FL200 282/052 357 0 2.3 / 5.5 00 02:09 -13 339 45 S3706.1 E14502.8 ...../..... W477 BOL 197 *DES 25 2.2 / 5.6 04 02:13 BOLINDA MELBOURN 362.0 20 S3727.7 E14447.9 ...../..... H119 ML 159 *DES 12 2.2 / 5.6 02 02:15 MELBOURNE 114.10 8 S3739.6 E14450.5 ...../..... DCT YMML/16 164 434 8 2.1 / 5.7 05 02:20 MELBOURNE INTL S3740.4 E14450.6 ...../..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaipanDan 5 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 JP & Casen - thanks for this thread, it helped me to figure out how to setup plans for my 727 and 732, as well as the Twin Otter I like to fly non-RNAV too since the GPS is only default FSX I replaced it with a weather radar Casen you may be interested I wrote down the process I can setup and fly Non-RNAV flight now using PFPX, and don't need enroute charts unless ATC is going to give me special directions. Until PFPX fixes the Non-RNAV route building, this is the process I will use to create them myself: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29331868/PFPX%20Non-RNAV%20Flight%20Planning%20HOW%20TO.txt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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