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Using Alt Constraints from SID


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I'm trying to plan a flight from EGKK-EHRD in the 737NGX 800WL. The departure is from rwy 26R and SID CLN8V. ZFW is 132680 and I'm using ICAO Minimum fuel policy.

With no constraints, I get: ATC ROUTE: N0440F290 CLN8V CLN UL620 REDFA REDF2R

with *TOC between DET and DAGGA on the departure. Looks OK but FL290 is very high for this short flight of only a couple hundred miles, and the SID constraints are not being observed.

Looking at the alt constraints on the chart for CLN8V, I entered the following alt constraints:

ACORN: 5000

DET: 6000

CLN: OPT

From reading another post my impression is that the waypoint and constraint is interpreted as the point where you can start climbing to the specified alt, so even though on the chart, DET is 5000, after DET you can climb to 6000. I couldn't enter a PBD waypoint as a constraint (eg. DET014005 for the first 6000ft constraint).

Recalculating gives: ATC ROUTE: N0275A060 CLN8V CLN UL620 REDFA REDF2R

There is a *TOD from FL255 after ARTOV on the UL620 airway but no *TOC. Should I interpret that as saying that FL255 is not achievable? I tried putting this route into the NGX FMC and cruise at FL250 and it says UNABLE CRZ ALT.

Suppose I enter FL190 instead of OPT at CLN, I get: ATC ROUTE: N0275A060 CLN8V DAGGA/N0378F190 CLN8V CLN UL620 REDFA REDF2R

That looks better, and now it flight plan shows FL190 at REDFA but there is still no *TOC in the plan.

What am I doing wrong? How can I include the alt constraints and be sure that the aircraft can achieve the altitudes in the plan?

Thanks,

Barry

Here's the flight plan without constraints:

AOA73A NAOA01/B737-800 CF ROUTE: (AUTO)
DEP: EGKK/LGW 26R ELEV 203 FT COST INDEX: 30 TTL G/C DIST: 180 NM
ARR: EHRD/RTM 24 ELEV -14 FT INIT ALT: FL290 TTL F/P DIST: 223 NM
FUEL BIAS: 100.0% TTL AIR DIST: 211 NM
AVG WIND CMP: TL019 KT
ALT: EHAM/AMS 24 ELEV -11 FT 35 NM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CONFIG DOW PAX CARGO TOTAL ULOAD LIM ZFW TOW LDW
STANDARD 91300 158 10800 41380 3320 ZFW MAX 136000 173000 146300
PLN 132680 140598 136677
ACT ...... ...... ......
FUEL CORR ENDUR
TRIP 3921 ........ 00:39
CONT 5% 407 ........ 00:05
ALTN EHAM 1166 ........ 00:11
FINAL RESV 2424 ........ 00:30
MIN T/O 7918 ........ 01:25 .....................................
EXTRA 0 ........ 00:00 CAPTAINS SIGNATURE (....)
TAXI 250 ........ 00:10
RELEASE 8168 ........ 01:35 I ACCEPT THIS OFP AND I AM FAMILIAR
WITH THE PLANNED ROUTE AND AERODROMES
FUEL TANK CAP 45900 LB / MAX EXTRA FUEL 9623 LB LIM BY LDW
TRIP CORR FOR 2000 LB TOW INCR: +35 LB / 2000 LB TOW DECR: -31 LB
2000 FT LOWER: -6 LB / EET 00:39 CLB: 250/280/78 DES: 78/280/250
EGKK/LGW STD 12:45 ETD 12:45 ACT OFBL ..... EST T/O 12:55 ACT T/O .....
EHRD/RTM STA 13:40 ETA 13:39 ACT ONBL ..... EST LDG 13:34 ACT LDG .....
TTL BLCK ..... TTL FLT .....
ATC ROUTE: N0439F290 CLN8V CLN UL620 REDFA REDF2R
ALTERNATE PLANNING
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALTN/RWY DIST ALT/FL COMP TIME FUEL DIFF ROUTE
EHAM/24 35 6000 TL011 00:11 1166 - RTM DCT AMS
EHEH/21 53 FL070 TL007 00:15 1508 +342 INKE1B INKET INKE2E
EBBR/25L 97 FL140 HD004 00:23 2328 +1162 WODY1B WOODY WOOD2B
EDLV/09 126 FL190 TL012 00:27 2661 +1495 ARNE2B ARNEM T196 TEBRO P71
SOBTU SOBT1W
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AWY WAYPOINT MT ALT WND/VEL TAS DIST FUEL REM / USED LEG ACC
NAME TMP FREQ GS REM POSITION ETO / ATO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EGKK/26R 203 7.9 / 0.3
LONDON/GATWICK 223 N5109.1 W00011.0 ...../.....
CLN8V 23IWW 258 *CLB 4 7.2 / 1.0 03 00:03
219 N5108.2 W00016.9 ...../.....
CLN8V DET31 080 *CLB 3 7.1 / 1.1 00 00:03
216 N5108.7 W00012.2 ...../.....
CLN8V ACORN 068 *CLB 16 6.4 / 1.8 03 00:06
200 N5115.3 E00011.8 ...../.....
CLN8V 31DVR 098 *CLB 13 6.0 / 2.2 02 00:08
187 N5113.7 E00032.4 ...../.....
CLN8V DET 027 *CLB 5 5.8 / 2.3 01 00:09
DETLING 117.30 182 N5118.2 E00035.8 ...../.....
*TOC 014 FL290 284/036 439 26 5.2 / 3.0 04 00:13
-45 437 156 N5143.5 E00045.4 ...../.....
CLN8V DAGGA 014 FL290 284/036 438 6 5.1 / 3.0 00 00:13
-45 436 150 N5149.3 E00047.6 ...../.....
CLN8V CLN 084 FL290 283/036 421 13 5.0 / 3.2 02 00:15
CLACTON -45 114.55 455 137 N5150.9 E00108.9 ...../.....
UL620 ARTOV 073 FL290 282/035 423 11 4.8 / 3.3 02 00:17
-45 453 126 N5154.3 E00125.5 ...../.....
*TOD 073 FL290 282/035 423 22 4.6 / 3.6 02 00:19
-45 453 104 N5201.0 E00159.2 ...../.....
UL620 REDFA 073 *DES 19 4.3 / 3.8 06 00:25
-EHAA 84 N5206.9 E00229.3 ...../.....
REDF2R MASOS 115 *DES 45 4.2 / 4.0 07 00:32
39 N5148.0 E00335.8 ...../.....
REDF2R EHRD/24 073 -14 39 4.0 / 4.2 07 00:39
ROTTERDAM N5157.7 E00427.2 ...../.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WIND INFORMATION - OBS ASKY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(CLIMB) ARTOV (DESCENT)
FL280 285/036 -42 FL330 284/039 -54 FL280 270/029 -43
FL230 276/033 -29 FL310 284/037 -50 FL230 261/026 -30
FL170 269/029 -16 FL290 283/036 -45 FL170 260/023 -16
FL110 263/026 -2 FL270 279/034 -40 FL110 261/019 -2
FL050 257/020 +6 FL250 276/033 -34 FL050 259/016 +7
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
END FLIGHTPLAN 00037 AOA73A NAOA01 EGKK-EHRD 05NOV2014
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I'm not answering your question about SID constraints in PFPX but just a general comment about flights from EGKK to EHRD or EHAM:

You really can't get much higher than FL180 or 200 because the departures out of EGKK keep you at 6000 until leaving the east coast of England. And the Dutch controllers like you well below FL240 at REDFA. There isn't much room between CLN and REDFA--maybe 90 miles???

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Thanks for all the responses. I was wondering how to know in advance the flight planner is suggesting something ridiculous. I know some rules of thumb like taking the distance and turning it into a flight level, for example EGKK-EHRD is 200 miles so fly at FL200. And then with the departure restrictions even FL200 might be too high. I'll try to keep that in mind for future flight planning.

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Thanks for all the responses. I was wondering how to know in advance the flight planner is suggesting something ridiculous. I know some rules of thumb like taking the distance and turning it into a flight level, for example EGKK-EHRD is 200 miles so fly at FL200. And then with the departure restrictions even FL200 might be too high. I'll try to keep that in mind for future flight planning.

Really the only thing I can suggest is to run the check to make sure it's a valid route and you'll get errors when something is wrong. Look those up and you'll probably find the altitude restrictions on that route there. At that point, just change your cruise altitude to something that fits in that range instead of using the optimum value.

To get the SID/STAR constraints, you can always use the speed/altitude section in the advanced options when planning the flight and put in those restrictions.

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Really the only thing I can suggest is to run the check to make sure it's a valid route and you'll get errors when something is wrong. Look those up and you'll probably find the altitude restrictions on that route there. At that point, just change your cruise altitude to something that fits in that range instead of using the optimum value.

To get the SID/STAR constraints, you can always use the speed/altitude section in the advanced options when planning the flight and put in those restrictions.

Thanks, I'll try out the validation and see if it catches the issue and set the cruise alt manually.

As far as adding the constraints, I tried that as described in the OP, but the results are confusing: No TOC indicated, and it still sends me to an unrealistic altitude for TOD. The ATC route basically just says the flight will be "above 6000" if I'm interpreting N0275A060 correctly. Also it indicates a descent to the first alt restriction that it would let me enter. It really seems like SID alt constraints are not supported as the first response to my OP states. For flight planning purposes, this seems reasonable actually, since you don't necessarily know which SID will be assigned, or if ATC will clear to higher altitude early, so I guess it's up to the planner to note the restriction and add some extra fuel and also cap the cruise altitude.

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Hello Barry,

Whilst not a resolution for the SID restriction a useful option is to add the City Pair level capping as published to the PFPX RAD:

post-5872-0-49707100-1415554652_thumb.jp

Whilst not fully correct as it only applies to two intersections it could be adjusted to suit:

EG4047 ¦ London Group to EH** ¦ Not above FL235 ¦ if via REDFA/VABIK ¦ H24

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Hi Stephen,

Thanks very much for the tip. I admit I don't understand this particular feature very well, it is new? Any documentation or tutorials?

Thanks,

Barry

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Hello Barry,

Christian is currently rolling out filtering based on the Route Availability Document, you can download a copy for the various AIRAC cycles HERE

Part of that document contains details for City Pair Level Capping, not yet in use by PFPX, but can be added as above.

The RAD is also used to resolve those error codes returned when validating a route.

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