Exported plan incorrect -- missing a waypoint!

Pete Dowson · February 5, 2014

I've just had an odd result from a very simple plan. This is with PFPX 1.13.

LIRQ-LIME, it suggested BALUK Q64 PAR, which I accepted. It suggested SID BALU6C and STAR DORI3S, which were fine, but not relevant to this problem.

The problem is that the exported plan from this (to FSX, FS2004, or PM -- not tried any others) just contains the one waypoint, BALUK. No sign of PAR.

Regards

Pete

alpha117 · February 5, 2014

Hi Pete

I think the reason is that PAR is the 'transition' WP and PFPX thinks its not part of the 'route and therefore will not export it; as the arrival might change since the flight was planned.

Clive

Wiseblood · February 6, 2014

I have the same problem. EGCC-EGLL for instance, the flightplan is EGCC/LISTO/N615/HON/EGLL, yet LISTO only appears when exported. There is no HON transition into Heathrow as far as I can see and its not a requirement to use transitions on most approaches as far as I know, so this behaviour cannot be by design? Deleting the STAR on the edit page also removes the HON waypoint weirdly.

Either way it effectively breaks PFPX for use with Radar Contact or FSX ATC as I am immediately off course after LISTO as there is no means of exporting the STAR that incorporates the transition. Thats without mentioning the hassle of having to scan imported plans for missing final waypoints and then manually entering the airway and waypoint into the FMC.

I'm happy to be corrected but I think this must be a bug.

Richard

alpha117 · February 6, 2014

Richard

I've raised a support ticket on this issue now as there seems to be quiet a few people saying the same thing.

Support will come back with the answer

Clive

alpha117 · February 6, 2014

Mean while I have taken the data below straight from the 1402 cycle data (PMDG) from NavDataPro

STAR OCK1D FIX HON FIX WODNB FIX 12OCK SPEED 250 FIX OCK

STAR BOVA4A FIX HON FIX TOBID FIX SOPIT AT 15000 FIX WCONB FIX BOVVA

As you can see HON is the FIRST fix on the STAR in these example the OCK1D and BOVA4A STAR

Also the STAR chart shows HON as the first fix of the STAR (OCK1D)

On the FMC all I do is press 'DEP/ARR' key then select the ARR LSK1R or LSK2R then select correct arrival runway and STAR and then Transition . If you own the FMC USers Guide its on page 149

alpha117 · February 6, 2014

Just so we see its not PFPX. Below are images are from another product!!!! (just for information)

This one shows the 'ROUTE' in this case its along UN615. The STAR selected is OCK1D and the STAR Transition (STARTS) is HON

Now, this one shows the same ROUTE again its along UN615. Now the STAR has changed to WEAL1G and now we have a different transition from the route to the arrival phase(STARTS) which is now OCK.

This could happen and if it did how would RC and FSX ATC copy with that change?

So hopefully as you can see the route stays the same but how you get to the ROUTE (SID) and how you get 'FROM the ROUTE' to arrival (STAR) will be different and is dependent on ATC, weather etc

The route in the above cases is everything between SIDTS and STARTS and does not include SIDTS or STARTS

Hope this helps

alpha117 · February 6, 2014

I have the same problem. EGCC-EGLL for instance, the flightplan is EGCC/LISTO/N615/HON/EGLL, yet LISTO only appears when exported. There is no HON transition into Heathrow as far as I can see and its not a requirement to use transitions on most approaches as far as I know, so this behaviour cannot be by design? Deleting the STAR on the edit page also removes the HON waypoint weirdly.

Either way it effectively breaks PFPX for use with Radar Contact or FSX ATC as I am immediately off course after LISTO as there is no means of exporting the STAR that incorporates the transition. Thats without mentioning the hassle of having to scan imported plans for missing final waypoints and then manually entering the airway and waypoint into the FMC.

I'm happy to be corrected but I think this must be a bug.

Richard

FSX programs have always accepted the .pln and again these have always included the SID and STAR as part of the route I think it was the easy option to save 'routes' with everything in them and call them a route; because to be honest no one outside of real-world aviation would know any different and it also made writing the programs easier.

Now things have moved on and people want them more 'real world' and now there will be issues highlighted, rightly so, that these 'new programs' are wrong but in fact they are correct and its the older programs that need up dating. IMHO

RC and FSX ATC are 'old' programs and cannot cope with these new changes. RC might if the new version is ever released. FSX ATC, well that will not/cannot be changed, perhaps in P3D!

BTW I used RC from day one for many years, it was way ahead of its time in those days and is still very good today...but!!!

Clive

alpha117 · February 6, 2014

Also it could be that everyone is so used to the naming convention that FSX uses for its file. they call it a .pln, which means a 'plan'. no problem with that. We assume that the 'plan'(.pln ) would include everything for that flight; ie SID > ROUTE > STAR.

Now PMDG call their file .RTE, which is the correct way as its just the 'ROUTE' and nothing else. the 'two' variables in a 'Fliight plan' are the SID and STAR . What stays the same in a 'flight plan' is the 'route' section.

Wiseblood · February 6, 2014

Hi Clive,

Many thanks for your energetic input, and for submitting a support ticket.

I've just been looking at the 02/14 NATS Standard Route Document, and EGCC-EGLL lists the flight plan or route as LISTO N615 HON. Thats the route. Recommended STARS have the BNN prefix. PFPX gives me BOVA (no pun intended), however transition points listed for all STARS at EGLL in the NGX FMC are as follows: LAM OCK EPM BNN CHT. These roughly correspond to the STARS at EGLL.

So, HON is simply the final waypoint on the flight plan, not a transition. STARS are given by ATC, and are independent of the flightplan, or route.

Vroute (which isn't outdated) also lists the flightplan as LISTO N615 HON.

I still think its a bug.

Cheers

Richard

alpha117 · February 6, 2014

:excellenttext_s:

let's see what support says, they will probably change the export code :groupflip_s:

alpha117 · February 6, 2014

Here's a route EDDF > KATL

HVQ is the STAR transition

Here is the .pln file . The last WP in the .pln file is also HVQ which is the STAR transition and is also exported.

alpha117 · February 6, 2014

Route EGCC > EGLL

PFPX: LIST2R LISTO P18 STAFA L8 HON OCK1D

Exported .pln file:

<ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

<ICAO>

<ICAOIdent>STAFA</ICAOIdent>

</ICAO>

</ATCWaypoint>

<ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

<ICAO>

</ICAO>

</ATCWaypoint>

<ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

<ICAO>

</ICAO>

</ATCWaypoint>

<ATCWaypoint id="HON">

<ICAO>

</ICAO>

</ATCWaypoint>

<ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>

<ICAO>

</ICAO>

</ATCWaypoint>

</FlightPlan.FlightPlan>

</SimBase.Document>

Not sure what else to say now, looks like it works whatever the explanation :eyepop_s:

Juergen_DL3FY · February 6, 2014

hi,

back to Pete's problem

Pete ... You should use the victor airway from "FRZ L995 PAR" ...
then you can use the STAR way DORI3S or a another

Here the complete flight plan wich i have just flown

LIRQ FRZ5P FRZ L995 PAR DORI3S.PAR1S LIME
or
LIRQ FRZ L995 PAR DORI3S.PAR1S LIME

Note: My flight plan was created with the program FlightSimCommander

greatings Juergen

Wiseblood · February 6, 2014

In the example I gave HON is the final waypoint on the Airway N615 for this particular route. Nothing to do with any STAR. The transition here (if applicable) would be BNN to STAR BNN4A not HON. When the pilots punch the route into the FMC at the departure airport they input LISTO N615 HON, they have no fixed idea what the arrival RWY or STAR will be, thats up to the wind and ATC. The idea that the flight plan would consist of only LISTO is absurd.

Finally, if this were correct behaviour why do I then need to manually type in N615 HON, by the logic being suggested here all I would have to do is go to the ARR page, select my runway, select appropriate STAR and HON would be available as a transition. Well, it isn't!

Clearly a bug, and it needs fixing.

Juergen_DL3FY · February 6, 2014

hi again,

now the problem with EGCC > EGL from Richard

my plan is:
EGCC LIST2S LISTO N615 HON BNN EGLL
Try that ...

Start on Rwy06 in Manchester and for landing on Rwy 09L here whe use the transition 'BNN'
You can use this also: EGCC LIST2S LIC07 Y53 PEDIG M605 FINMA BNN EGLL
or
EGCC LIC07 Y53 PEDIG M605 FINMA BNN EGLL

greatings Juergen

Wiseblood · February 6, 2014

Juergen,

If i manually edit the generated route (its a saved route of mine I think) in 1.13 to LISTO N615 HON DCT BNN it works. This cannot be correct behaviour though? Or is this to do with the auto route problem thats been mentioned?

Cheers

Richard

Juergen_DL3FY · February 6, 2014

hi Richard,

you have thus made BNN to waypoint in the flight plan ... something must actually always go by DCT (as DIRECT).

However, BNN is indicated in my plan as a transition for the Rwy09L ... which is the difference

cheers Juergen

Juergen_DL3FY · February 6, 2014

hi,

have in my flightplan a mistake ...

it should be so:

EGCC LIST2S LISTO N615 HON BNN BNN EGLL

with two times BNN for Transition !-

sri Juergen

alpha117 · February 6, 2014

Hi Juergen

few questions on your route : EGCC LIST2S LISTO N615 HON BNN BNN EGLL

1. How would you enter that in a FMC!

2. What happens if you copy and paste that route into PFPX and the hit 'build'?

What would happen if you did this EGCC LIST2S LISTO N615 HON AUTO and then hit build?!

Clive

alpha117 · February 6, 2014

Also I think there is a terminology issue here as well and that is with 'Transition'.

Gary or someone could confirm this. Transitions are used in the USA/Canada but in Europe they are called 'FIXs. So instead of a STAR Transition you would have a STAR Fix

Also Transition WPs can be 100nms from the Airport only in the USA and Canada though.

Where as in Europe the STAR FIX Wp is normal very close to the airport, in other words where the 'routes 'transitions' into the arriva(STAR)l' !!

Maybe wrong, not sure

Clive

Juergen_DL3FY · February 6, 2014

The standard form as text string is:
EGCC LIST2S LISTO N615 HON BNN EGLL
generated thru the FlightSimCommander

for my Airbus X Extended (A320 AXE), the form is this (also generated thru the FSC):

[CoRte]
ArptDep=EGCC
ArptArr=EGLL
RwyDep=EGCC05L
RwyArr=EGLL09L
RwyArrFINAL=ILS09L
SID=LIST2S (or DESI1S)
STAR=
APPR_Trans=BNN
Airway1=N615
Airway1FROM=LISTO
Airway1TO=HON

This datas going into the MCDU1:

1. when the flightplan (EGCCEGLL01) is saved, then press LSK1L-button... the F-Plan now is loaded

.... otherwise (for typing the datas manually in) press LSKL4 for RETURN

2. fill out the INIT-page
3. take the F-plan page and put in the datas (LISTO, HON, BNN) <= this are DIRECT's now
4. select EGCC and use o5L and LIST2S (no other 'LIST' is there)
5. take it and press INSERT / the SID is programmed now

6. now the Rwy for EGLL and STAR or TRANS way
7. select the green marked EGLL and than select ARRIVAL (LSKR1)
8. under VIAS select Rwy ILS09L, then select BNN4A (oh, thats marked as STAR !)
9. press INSERT (LSKR6)

10. so, now putting in the airway .... in this moment the WP's are still DIRECT's
11. go to the first WP 'LISTO' and select it at the left side with the appr. button (here LSKL4)

12. press then AIRWAYS (LSKR5)

13. type N615 and put it in by VIA (LSKL1)
14. under 'TO' (LSKL1) now the end-waypoint 'HON'/ put it in there
15. there no more to do / insert it to the plan by pressing INSERT (LSKR6)

16. now check the hole plan. You can see that the AIRWAY 'N615' is now in the F-Plan

NOTE: There a small problem now. The first WP's are verry close together ... and the aircraft has problems to follow the way.
Thats the reason to set the first high to 5000ft. After WP LISTO set the cruising level to 32000ft. Maybe helpful or not ???

17. and to close-up.... take Fuel, PAX and Payload ...
18. complet the PERF/Take-off page , set FLAP to ? Take the Vr data für set the SPEED
19. set the flight level and then fly

A simplest way is to progamming one time and have it as file in the appropriated folder

What You have to do for a another type of aircraft ... you should know that !

NOTE: about the STAR Fix
... i cannot say anythings about that

cheers Juergen

alpha117 · February 6, 2014

Hi Juergen

Great stuff for the AirBus

Many Thanks

Clive

srcooke · February 6, 2014

The problem is within PFPX, it occurs because it automatically de-selects the SID/STAR when exporting, taking out the last route waypoint. Exactly the same issue occurs when de-selecting the STAR in the Route Editor.

UPDATE: The export error has crept in with v1.13, reverting to v1.12 and a full export is achieved including SID/STAR

CaptainTim · February 6, 2014

Kevin,

I've seen you mention a cruising altitude of 32000ft EGCC to EGLL. The max FL is FL195 on the routes specified in the UK SRD document.

Cheers,

Tim

Juergen_DL3FY · February 8, 2014

hi,

i understand it Tim.

So here then then different routes:

Jet-airway
EGCC LOVEL UN615 HON UL15 FINMA EGLL

Victor-airway is:
EGCC LIC07 Y53 PEDIG M605 FINMA EGLL

that says my program (FSC)

cheers Juergen

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Exported plan incorrect -- missing a waypoint!

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