JamesClev 0 Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Hi All, I am looking at planning routes from the UK/Ireland to the Canary Islands and noticed that all the upper airways within the LPPC FIR have level limits between FL200-245. So that all upper airspace routes are planned direct from the entry point to the exit point of the airspace region. This causes errors during validation. No doubt in my mind I am missing something critical here. Any pointers from anyone? e.g. BEPA5A BEPAN P620 BANBA UP620 KORUL UQ600 DEMOS DCT ORTIS ORTI3V Thanks James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rónán O Cadhain 71 Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 I've also noticed this, throws the fuel figures way off when a good 40 minutes of the flight is planned to be flown at FL240... Thanks, Rónán. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heidem 5 Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Only solution is DCT. I've looked at www.edi-gla.co.uk for routes to the Canary Islands through LPPC FIR and they all go DCT from basically Spanish airspace to Casablanca FIR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmncm 0 Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Hello, LPPC is a FIR in witch FRA (Free Route Airspace) is implemented. This system allows operators more flexibility in flight planning in Lisbon FIR. From official AIP ENR: Within the FRA area there will be no limitations on the use of “DCT “. Overflight traffic should plan directly from FRA airspace entry point to FRA airspace exit point. Arriving traffic should plan directly from FRA airspace entry point to the STAR initial waypoint. Departing traffic should plan directly from SID final waypoint to the FRA airspace exit point. So, like in real world the correct procedure is use a DCT. If you notice on PFPX map and enable the "DCT" you see that apart from US and oceanic, in Europe, Portugal is the only FIR that has this system (also implemented in PFPX) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rónán O Cadhain 71 Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 That system is actually implemented in Irish airspace as well, but the problem is that PFPX isn't taking it into account and instead forcing everyone down to FL240 to follow an airway. Thanks, Rónán. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmncm 0 Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Ok I see now the issue... I'm trying also compute a EGKK-GCLP for testing and he is only using airways no DCT from this side... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkursix 3 Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Looks like we need an updated direct database Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rónán O Cadhain 71 Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Also, for flights ending within the LPPC boundary there should be a direct route from the entry waypoint to the waypoint at the start of the STAR and from the SID to the exit waypoint, these don't exist, nor do directs between each of the individual waypoints within the FIR. Same goes for Irish airspace, off the top of my head the number of DCTs needed is the number of waypoints within and on the border of the FIR factorial, then multiplied by two for going the opposite direction, which is a lot of DCTs! Thanks, Rónán. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robb_speed 6 Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Are you guys using AS or NG nav? I just built EGKK-GCLA to test and it routed me through LPPC using just the entry/exit points, RALUS DCT BEXAL at FL380.I'm on NG airac.RobSent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rónán O Cadhain 71 Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 I'm still on the Airac that PFPX came equipped with. Thanks, Rónán. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robb_speed 6 Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Ronan, Same thing for your statement regarding LPPC arrivals. EGKK-LPMA routed me DEMOS DCT LIDRO to join LIDR4A.RobSent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robb_speed 6 Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 I'm using latest NG cycle 1309RobSent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robb_speed 6 Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 To the OP's original point and question. Why does it fail CFMU validation? But I guess that is not a PFPX issue.RobSent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamyJay 1 Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 Does it help if you edit your created route with DCT waypoints?jJust an idea.Mit freundlichem Gruss / Best RegardsSamySent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesClev 0 Posted September 3, 2013 Author Share Posted September 3, 2013 Hi Rob and all,I am using NG 1309 and it does route direct but it fails the CFMU complaining about the DCT route being too long/not allowed. That's what alerted me to this issue. Thanks for the info re: free routing. CheersJamesYPPHSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torben Andersen 15 Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 Just for the record: Denmark and Sweden have also implemented FRA (Free Route Airspace), but continues to have published airways as well. For the Danish rules see http://www.slv.dk/Dokumenter/dsweb/Get/Document-11228/EK_SUP_2013_05_en.pdf Torben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikkelgh 5 Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 @Torben: Didn't know about Denmark. Thanks for the info For other countries' implementation of FRA look here: http://www.eurocontrol.int/news/free-route-airspace-deployed-europe Best regards, Mikkel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamyJay 1 Posted September 4, 2013 Share Posted September 4, 2013 If i telnet correct Finland has implemented this route system too!Mit freundlichem Gruss / Best RegardsSamySent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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