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SID/STAR waypoints for Radar Contact


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Hello,

Waypoints for the designated SID and STAR don't seem to be included in the FSX export format, as far as I can see. The problem with this is that when I import this plan into Radar Contact, the first waypoint is the first one on the first airway, and so RC starts giving me headings to my first waypoint instead of allowing me to fly the SID. The reason for this is because of the way RC requires the flight plan to be set up, the first waypoint has to be less than 30nm from the origin airport. It interprets this as you wanting to fly a SID and will leave you alone until you have flown your SID and are on course on the airways.

So, please can the SID and STAR waypoints be included in the FSX export file? I cannot see a way to get PFPX to do this.

I hope I explained this well enough.

Thanks

Jonathan

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Here is an example of what I mean: the route produced by PFPX is BIKF SKAR1B ING G3 VALDI/N0451F370 N623 TUNOD/N0447F390 N623 IBGAX L199 MILTA M870 IKAMU IKAM2A EYVI.

The SKAR1B SID contains the following waypoints in PFPX: KEF METIL GAKTU SKARD. The IKAM2A STAR contains the following waypoints in PFPX: IKAMU OBANO BILDI

The attached pln file does not contain the above SID and STAR Waypoints.

<FlightPlan.FlightPlan>
<Title>BIKF to EYVI</Title>
<FPType>IFR</FPType>
<RouteType>HighAlt</RouteType>
<CruisingAlt>7000</CruisingAlt>
<DepartureID>BIKF</DepartureID>
<DepartureLLA>N63° 59' 06.00",W022° 36' 20.00",171</DepartureLLA>
<DestinationID>EYVI</DestinationID>
<DestinationLLA>N54° 38' 13.00",E025° 17' 16.00",646</DestinationLLA>
<Descr>BIKF to EYVI created by PFPX - Professional Flight Planner X (http://www.pfpx.com)</Descr>
<DeparturePosition>29</DeparturePosition>
<DepartureName>KEFLAVIK</DepartureName>
<DestinationName>VILNIUS INTL.</DestinationName>
<AppVersion>
<AppVersionMajor>10</AppVersionMajor>
<AppVersionBuild>61472</AppVersionBuild>
</AppVersion>
<ATCWaypoint id="BIKF">
<ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>
<WorldPosition>N63° 59' 06.00",W022° 36' 20.00",+000171.00</WorldPosition>
<ICAO>
<ICAORegion>BI</ICAORegion>
<ICAOIdent>BIKF</ICAOIdent>
</ICAO>
</ATCWaypoint>
<ATCWaypoint id="ING">
<ATCWaypointType>VOR</ATCWaypointType>
<WorldPosition>N63° 48' 11.30",W016° 38' 16.64",+000000.00</WorldPosition>
<ICAO>
<ICAORegion>BI</ICAORegion>
<ICAOIdent>ING</ICAOIdent>
</ICAO>

...

<ATCWaypoint id="IKAMU">
<ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
<WorldPosition>N55° 20' 40.30",E024° 38' 12.50",+000000.00</WorldPosition>
<ATCAirway>M870</ATCAirway>
<ICAO>
<ICAORegion>EY</ICAORegion>
<ICAOIdent>IKAMU</ICAOIdent>
</ICAO>
</ATCWaypoint>
<ATCWaypoint id="EYVI">
<ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>
<WorldPosition>N54° 38' 13.00",E025° 17' 16.00",+000646.00</WorldPosition>
<ICAO>
<ICAORegion>EY</ICAORegion>
<ICAOIdent>EYVI</ICAOIdent>
</ICAO>

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Yeah but can't you override this? Set up a flight plan with no SID but then force RC to think that you will fly a SID, thus being able to add one in your FMS during preflight and have RC leave you alone.

I still wish there was a command for you to tell off the ATC in RC when it tells you to do stupid stuff....which is too often imo. RC seems to be the best option for atc we have, but it still is a rotten mess.

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I don't use Radar Contact, but on a related note, I find the exclusion of SID and STAR waypoints an issue for me. First, the world map in PFPX looks strange with some STAR/SID waypoints depicted, but some not depicted. It is very selective in which waypoints it draws the magenta line on, with no rhyme or reason. Second, I use the FSX formatted flightplan exported from PFPX to load into my weather program, Active Sky Evolution, to get wind info for the STAR waypoints because I need to type that wind data into the PMDG NGX's FMC descent forecast page so that the plane flies an optimal descent flightpath. FYI, FSBuild allowed all SID/STAR waypoints to display in their flight map and the exported fsx flightplan.

I understand that this info may have been removed because it's not standard procedure to have this in the base flightplan as the user is supposed to select the SIDs and STARs separately in the FMC, as the procedures can change with weather conditions. However, there should be an option to allow these waypoints to be included, as we see here that two highly popular addons need this critical navigation info.

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Could someone from Flightsimsoft respond to this as to when it will be addressed? Perhaps you could make an export option to RC in the next update or include in the FSX plan so that we can fly our SIDs & STARs?

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I use the FSX formatted flightplan exported from PFPX to load into my weather program, Active Sky Evolution, to get wind info for the STAR waypoints because I need to type that wind data into the PMDG NGX's FMC descent forecast page so that the plane flies an optimal descent flightpath.

I understand that this info may have been removed because it's not standard procedure to have this in the base flightplan as the user is supposed to select the SIDs and STARs separately in the FMC, as the procedures can change with weather conditions. However, there should be an option to allow these waypoints to be included, as we see here that two highly popular addons need this critical navigation info.

As you say yourself, usually the STAR choice is done during the cruise or descend phase of the flight depending on the runway in use at the arrival airport. The info would be given by ATC, or even the ATC could ask for vectored approach without any STAR.

So the Flight Plan entered inside the FMC before the flight will not contain any STAR information, and PFPX is right by not including it. PMDG 737 NGX allows you to enter and use a flight plan without a STAR, and to insert the active landing runway and related STAR inside your LEGS information during the flight.

However, even if less realistic, some simmers prefer to choose a STAR and landing runway before take-off. Would be nice for those, for PFPX to offer an option to save OFP with STAR included (and SID also, for same type of reason).

Chris

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Hello to all,

deleting the SID and STAR waypoints out of the plan will make the flightplans unusable for the FS ATC in both versions of the filghtsimulator if you are importing the flightplan directly to a supported airplane. Even that now the Flightplan will be accepted by the FS ATC the waypoints are now missing for FSX and FS2004. The have been in the plan up to the version 1.04 of PFPX. I would really appreciate that this would be changed back.

Best regards

Thomas

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However, even if less realistic, some simmers prefer to choose a STAR and landing runway before take-off. Would be nice for those, for PFPX to offer an option to save OFP with STAR included (and SID also, for same type of reason).

Hi Chris, this is the point I was hoping to make. It is unrealistic for FMC or real life dispatch purposes, but the inclusion of these waypoints is necessary for our own flight simulator addon purposes. There ought to be a option to have the user generate a flightplan formatted for the FMC, without the SID/STAR/runway info, and one generated so that programs like Active Sky or Radar Contact are aware of these waypoints.

Also, I have seen on Flightaware that routes are submitted with SIDS and STARS included! Not sure if these are the same routes submitted by dispatch and/or the cockpit crew to ATC, but it's worth noting.

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Hi Chris, this is the point I was hoping to make. It is unrealistic for FMC or real life dispatch purposes, but the inclusion of these waypoints is necessary for our own flight simulator addon purposes. There ought to be a option to have the user generate a flightplan formatted for the FMC, without the SID/STAR/runway info, and one generated so that programs like Active Sky or Radar Contact are aware of these waypoints.

Also, I have seen on Flightaware that routes are submitted with SIDS and STARS included! Not sure if these are the same routes submitted by dispatch and/or the cockpit crew to ATC, but it's worth noting.

You do not need to include SID/STAR inside your FP while using FSX and add-ons.

I use myself FSX, PMDG 737 NGX, Active Sky 2012, Radar Contact v4. I used to plan with FS Commander but have now switched to PFPX.

I never include SID and STAR inside my flight plan. I load the generated plan to Radar Contact and check the appropriate options to be able to fly any SID I want for take-off. Usually, I am using ATC vectored approaches instead of STARs (but it would work all the same).

Once in the cockpit to prepare the flight, I load the same flight plan inside the FMS, prepare the plane, and contact Radar Contact ATC to get ATIS information and other info. I get the departing runway this way, and at this time I insert the correct SID inside the FMC.

this way is far more realistic and is fully usable with all those tools...

Chris

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Chris is correct that RC4 provides options that let you fly DPs and STARs without ATC vectoring within 30 nm of the departure or destination. But Johnathan Fenech is correct that some of the new RNAV DPs extend well beyond 30 miles. So do STARs. For example look at the MIP4 arrival into KLGA from STG that is well over a hundred miles long. A flight plan exported from PFPX to FSX and imported to Radar Contact causes the flight to be vectored direct to KLGA once past STG, omitting the long button hook to the south that is part of the procedure. I can see two solutions: 1) put the route into FSBuild and export the route - with all the DPs and STAR waypoints - into FSX, or 2) load the PFPX plan into FSX and manually edit edit in points. Till the PFPX folks add an option to export DP and STARs to FSX .pln files, although I like PFPX, I'm sticking with FSBuild and solution #1.

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Hello Chris, I just wanted to provide an example of why the option of having STAR waypoints in the flightplan is important, to me at least, when flying the NGX. When I used FSBuild, I basically made two flightplans. First, I created a FP without the sid/star info because it is more realistic, and it makes more sense to add that info to the route myself when I first import the route into the FMC. But once that route is activated in the FMC, I then go back to FSBuild and create the same flightplan with SID/STARs included. Why?

When I am close to the TOD in the NGX, I go into the DES FORECAST page and input 3 altitudes for wind entries. They are usually the first altitude below the cruise alt, an intermediate altitude (around FL180), and 7000ft or whichever waypoint is the last before the ILS FAF. With Active Sky, I can just load up the briefing page, lookup the STAR waypoints that match those 3 altitudes, and find the appropriate winds by altitude to plug into the FMC DES forecast page for each of the three altitudes and the STAR waypoints they correspond to.

But with the same flightplan created in PFPX, I don't see those STAR waypoints in the exported flightplan I use in Active Sky, and therefore have to use the winds at the destination airport. This results in some variation from what the winds would be at the star waypoints during the descent.

I hope I explained this adequately. Bottom line, STAR waypoints are very important for anyone who uses the NGX (and now PMDG 777) descent winds forecast to get an accurate VNAV glidepath. Without these waypoints, we are at a slight disadvantage and it WILL impact our descent performance. I think for now, I will copy paste the flightplan from PFPX and paste it into FSBuild just to have a flightplan to export into Active Sky Evolution's briefing page. But I would really appreciate if PFPX would add an option to include the SIDS/STARs in the exported routes. Having to still rely on an older program just to satisfy this one requirement kind of ruins the whole PFPX experience.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello,

has there been any news in this regard from the developers? Will a future patch of PFPX contain an option to export the SID/STAR waypoints individually in FSX pln format?

Thank you

-E

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Hello,

has there been any news in this regard from the developers? Will a future patch of PFPX contain an option to export the SID/STAR waypoints individually in FSX pln format?

Thank you

-E

I am a RC4 user too and I would really like to see this feature added in future update!

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  • 1 month later...

I'm a PFPX and RC4 user as well and I too have been having this issue. There definitely needs to be an option to be able to include SIDs and STARs on export for FSX PLN formats. The way it stands now we can't fly STARs because the waypoints are ommitted from the exports, and therefore ATC programs think we are flying from our last enroute waypoint straight to the airport (i.e. no STAR); even though the enroute waypoints could be more than a hundred miles away. On some STARs it isn't much of an issue because some are straight shots to the airport, but flying STARs into mountainous areas or long routes is rather frustrating.

For those wondering about a workaround, when flight planning your route in PFPX do not select a STAR as part of your route (or if you have PFPX auto generate a route for you you can still do so but then go into "Edit Route" mode to remove the STAR portion by selecting the " - " on the STAR dropdown list - this will remove the STAR). Not removing the STAR or selecting one from the dropdown list will cause the issue as described above. Instead, manually insert the waypoints of the STAR directly into the route legs via the "Edit Route" menu. PFPX will treat these as manually entered waypoints - not a part of a STAR - and will therefore export the waypoints. The key is to not select a STAR (and have it autofill the waypoints) but to manually insert the waypoints of the STAR.

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  • 1 month later...

I hate to bump an old thread but I wanted to add some info. In the real world, atleast in my OPS, we add the SID and STAR to the flight plan for a reason. Flying is all about timing. We will add the anticipated SID and STAR to the FMC in order to get a close idea to arrival time. In the corporate world, you want to give your principal an accurate flight and arrival time. Alot of important meetings and phone calls are based on these times. When I give an arrival time of 1610, it means my stairs are touching the ground at 1610. We calculate this time from blocks to blocks. The boss watches the arrival time on airshow when ever they are not watching movies or SAT TV. They sometimes show up late and expect you to make that time up. On another note, would be nice to have the FSX ATC flight plan with the SID/STAR so that you don't get vectors when flying them. Also as in the real world, if you receive different clearances, you just delete the SID/STAR and add the cleared one.

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  • 1 month later...
  • 2 months later...

Bumping again. Will the developer please answer this question?

To start, it's extrememly frustrating to type a post here and then have it dumped because you're not signed in when you click on "Post". Wish you would fix that.

Right now I have to cut and paste the route into another planner (FSBuild) in order to get a .pln file with the SID/STAR included for Radar Contact. We'd sure appreciate the ability to include SID/STAR waypoints in the FSX .pln export for ATC purposes. It's very cumbersome to have to use someone else's flight planning software to make this work.

Regards

Bob Scott

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Bob,

I don't understand. I use RC on every flight and I always fly a SID / STAR when there is one. You simply select if you want altitude restrictions or not (depending on the SID) and RC doesn't care what direction you fly as long as you're within 30 nm of the departure airport. This is all covered in the RC pdf manual pages 109-111, including "Forcing a DP" at the bottom of page 109.

The workaround for flying a very long STAR is covered above by E6BAV8R.

Andre

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Bob,

I don't understand. I use RC on every flight and I always fly a SID / STAR when there is one. You simply select if you want altitude restrictions or not (depending on the SID) and RC doesn't care what direction you fly as long as you're within 30 nm of the departure airport. This is all covered in the RC pdf manual pages 109-111, including "Forcing a DP" at the bottom of page 109.

The workaround for flying a very long STAR is covered above by E6BAV8R.

Andre

Andre--I already use my own workaround for the STARS, as I described, by importing the PFPX route into another flight planning program (FSBuild) which will write a .pln file that includes the STAR waypoints. It's a somewhat unwieldy extra step, but less complicated than manually adding SID/STAR waypoints as E6BAV8R describes..

Regardless, a workaround is still a workaround--an option in PFPX to include the SID and/or STAR waypoints in the exported FSX .pln file would enable RC4 to make direct use of the FSX .pln file produced by PFPX without having to resort to any of the known and cumbersome workarounds for the problem.

Regards

Bob Scott

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Andre--I already use my own workaround for the STARS, as I described, by importing the PFPX route into another flight planning program (FSBuild) which will write a .pln file that includes the STAR waypoints. It's a somewhat unwieldy extra step, but less complicated than manually adding SID/STAR waypoints as E6BAV8R describes..

Regardless, a workaround is still a workaround--an option in PFPX to include the SID and/or STAR waypoints in the exported FSX .pln file would enable RC4 to make direct use of the FSX .pln file produced by PFPX without having to resort to any of the known and cumbersome workarounds for the problem.

Regards

Bob Scott

Hi Bob

I also use fsbuild as a workaround for rcv4, However I disagree slightly on what should be added to PFPX.

I don't want to see the current export to fsx changed in any manner. To add Sid/Star waypoints to this flight plan would screw up two other addons I currently use, namely AvilaSoft EFB and FSC. They both have the capability to add or alter sids/stars to the planned routing, which fits with exactly what I want.

What I would like to see from PFPX is an additional export capability to RCV4 which would be in the same FSX Format only with Sid/Star way points added. The user should be able to export this plan to a subdirectory of their choice. I would select to export the plan to RCV4 subdirectory RCV4/Flight Plans.

This is what I currently do with FSBuild and RCV4 loads and uses the this plan quite nicely.

Following this recommendation would insure that no fsx flight plan currently created by PFPX is altered in any way.

Ralph Walker

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  • 3 weeks later...

Add another voice to the group asking for the option to include a SID and/or STAR in the flight plan file, particularly for Radar Contact 4 use. I know they aren't usually included, except possibly under a few special circumstances (e.g. Germany). As a rule, I don't normally include them in a saved flight plan file. But for those STARs that are too long to be flown correctly in RC4, it would be nice to include them simply as enroute waypoints in the file. Speed/Altitude constraints don't need to be included, just the name and position of the waypoint. And yes, I know there about E6BAV8R's workaround for including a STAR. But a workaround shouldn't be necessary when the data is already included in PFPX! The developers have addressed other requests, and it's really not too much to ask for a box to select/deselect the inclusion of the SID and/or STAR in the saved file.

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Same problem here, SID and STAR's seems to be an problem for RC4. I've noticed that some commands from the tower are also strange. For example; at departure the tower says Fly runway heading and climb to 6000ft and follow flightplan as filed" But after I reached 6000ft and activate my LNAV/VNAV, I receive an warning that I must follow the assigned Heading. So I turned back to the heading and fly as ATC tells me to do. But then again I receive another warning that I've had to listen what ATC is telling me and that I'm off course. I did all what the ATC was telling me and he ask me if I need any help. Very very annoying and I decided to use the default ATC again.

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