ETOPS and NAT Planning

[ESzczesniak 25]

A couple questions about ETOPs and NAT planning that I can't find in the manual.

1. I've been messing around with settings. I am getting CRP's (critical points) for ETOP's instead of ETP's (equal time points). Can anyone enlighten me as to why I get one or other and what settings may need changing? As I understand it, ETP's should be for the ETOP's.

2. Is there a way to tell to program to use the NAT tracks? I find the auto route ignores them regardless. It's not until asking the program to find a wind optimized route that it puts me on a NAT.

3. Is there a way to tell the program to travel on a specific NAT, but otherwise auto build the route?

4. What fuel planning rules would a US originating flight to Europe (let's just say KBOS to EGLL) use? And on reverse?

[moritz382 3]

Would be great if you look into the manual.

[ESzczesniak 25]

Would be great if you look into the manual.

So I guess you read the manual and not forum posts...

A couple questions about ETOPs and NAT planning that I can't find in the manual...

If you can find answers to these questions in the manual, please let me know. I certainly can not.

Specially:

1. This is a question re: ETOPS planning. The manual discusses that CRP is for unbalanced ETOPS solution. Some of us don't know what unbalanced solutions are and how to balance them.

2. Simply unable to find in the manual. In fact the manual under the advanced route editor says that PFPX prefers to plan via tracks, yet this isn't how the auto function is working for me.

3. I can find the instructions to route via a specific fix, but this window does not except NAT tracks as a valid routing when I try it.

4. This is again a planning rule, it's not the manual's job to tell me what policies apply where.

[moritz382 3]

4. Fuel

"There are many different fuel planning rules and regulations worldwide

or even differences between various aircraft types or the kind of operation within the same authority.

For example, a European airline would normally use EU-OPS fuel policy

as published by the EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency), whereas

an airline based in the United States would use FAA Domestic rules (For

domestic flights) or FAA Flag rules (For international flights)." page 55 PFPX manual

[jskiffington 2]

Would be great if you look into the manual.

How is this helpful? We're all on our first day using the product. Why hang out on the forum if you're not going to help?

A couple questions about ETOPs and NAT planning that I can't find in the manual.

1. I've been messing around with settings. I am getting CRP's (critical points) for ETOP's instead of ETP's (equal time points). Can anyone enlighten me as to why I get one or other and what settings may need changing? As I understand it, ETP's should be for the ETOP's.

2. Is there a way to tell to program to use the NAT tracks? I find the auto route ignores them regardless. It's not until asking the program to find a wind optimized route that it puts me on a NAT.

3. Is there a way to tell the program to travel on a specific NAT, but otherwise auto build the route?

4. What fuel planning rules would a US originating flight to Europe (let's just say KBOS to EGLL) use? And on reverse?

Can't answer all your questions, but for (2), when you generate the route select "Find" and then go to "Advanced..." Make sure that "Wind optimized route: is selected. For the KJFK-EGLL route I just planned, this hooked up to NATX. This is the only way I've found.

[moritz382 3]

for 2: Check that your tracks are online and that no hook is set at "ignore tracks".

Best Regards,

[bvagner 0]

Hi,

I do confirm for 2), it's the same for me :

I planned a CYUL-LFPG route, and it doesnt follow a NAT, only DCT points accross the Atlantic, even 1 point in common with an actual NAT (which is prohibited if I do not follow a track).

I precise :

- I fly a valid FL for a NAT,

- The box "Ignore tracks" is UNchecked

- The box "Wind optimized toute" is checked (but no change on this if unchecked)

- All data have been updated (airac/tracks msg).

- I simulated a flight date & time which fit with NAT availability

If it can help :

- Only 3 NAT eastbound are displayed (S, W and Y) , wheras the NAT message has 8 eastbound tracks today (TMI 241)

- The displayed tracks are not exactly the same than message. Or, rather, they do not stop at the right point. Example : the last point displayed on map on NATS is 5720N, and on the message, there is SUNOT and KESIX thereafter.

Kind regards,

benoit

(FPL-TEST-IN

-B77L/H-SDE1FGHIJ1RWXYZ/LB1

-CYUL2315

-N350F370 YUL DCT MT J551 HO DCT 5750N DCT 5840N DCT 5830N DCT 5720N DCT NIBOG

UN551 TADEX DCT BEL UL10 DUFFY UL15 HON DCT COWLY UN615 WOD UM605 DPE

-LFPG0909

-PBN/A1B1C1D1L1O1S1 NAV/RNVD1E2A1 DOF/130829 REG/AZERT PER/D)

[moritz382 3]

for 2: I did it via the normal autoroute.

[bvagner 0]

Good for you! I even havn't the NAT T available.

It is on the message, but not on the map

[Jordanmc321 0]

With the NATS I was planning a flight from KJFK to EGLL and for it to follow a NAT I had to check the box "Ignore Tracks", also if I had wind optimized route active it would jump between 3 NATS (U,T and S). If I were to deselect wind optimization it would put me on NAT X but the exit would be incorrect.

The route with "Ignore Tracks" checked and wind optimization off "MERIT3 JFK DCT PVD DCT TUSKY N63B VIXUN DCT 4950N NATX 5220N DCT 5110N DCT LESLU UL180 ABDUK UL607 NUMPO UP2 BEDEK TOMO2F"

The route when wind optimization is on and "Ignore Tracks" checked "MERIT3 PUT DCT EBONY N109B DOTTY DCT 5250N DCT 5540N NATT 5630N DCT 5720N DCT MIMKU UL10 HON TOMO1D"

The route when "Ignore Tracks" is unchecked "MERIT3 PUT DCT TOPPS N125A YAY DCT 5550N DCT 5740N DCT 5830N DCT 5820N DCT MIMKU UL10 DUFFY UL15 HON TOMO1D" wind optimization on this route makes no difference.

Regards,

Jordan

[bvagner 0]

Am I the only one to have only 3 out of 8 track displayed?

And the 3 do not go till the shanwick oceanic boundery?

[Frank254 1]

Am I the only one to have only 3 out of 8 track displayed?

And the 3 do not go till the shanwick oceanic boundery?

Could it be you are using the current Navigraph cycle? If so, download and install a new version of the Navigraph PFPX file. There were obviously some fixes missing in the old file.

[Dave Lamb 9]

A couple questions about ETOPs and NAT planning that I can't find in the manual.

1. I've been messing around with settings. I am getting CRP's (critical points) for ETOP's instead of ETP's (equal time points). Can anyone enlighten me as to why I get one or other and what settings may need changing? As I understand it, ETP's should be for the ETOP's.

2. Is there a way to tell to program to use the NAT tracks? I find the auto route ignores them regardless. It's not until asking the program to find a wind optimized route that it puts me on a NAT.

3. Is there a way to tell the program to travel on a specific NAT, but otherwise auto build the route?

4. What fuel planning rules would a US originating flight to Europe (let's just say KBOS to EGLL) use? And on reverse?

The answers to 1-3 above are a bit complex....and I'll come back to this. Question 4 is easier to answer and let me do so from the perspective of the FARs (Federal Air Regulations).

ALL US carriers operating flights to/from the USA must meet FAA regulations for fuel planning, alternate planning, route planning...all of this under 49 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) Part 121 (for scheduled operations) and Part 135 (for supplemental--aka non scheduled---operations).

ALL NON-USA carriers must comply with 49 CFR Part 129, which specifies under which rules they must operate (ICAO rules essentially). They must file their Operations Specifications with the FAA and get a operating certificate to operate to/from the USA. While a foreign carrier may operate segments within the USA under Part 129, they may NOT operate flights within the USA that allow for loading and unloading of passengers or cargo wholly between those two domestic US points (Cabotage rule).

Now that the FAR quotations are out of the way, the simple answer is this: IF you are a US carrier operating anywhere in the world, you must use FAA rules. If you are a European carrier flying to/from the USA, EU-OPS would be appropriate as they are ICAO Annex 6 compliant.

Clear as mud? Don't worry... I do this for a living and I still had to look it up. I haven't even gotten into the ICAO rules...gives me a headache.

Kind regards,

David Lamb

FAA Licensed Aircraft Dispatcher (Part 121)

Indianapolis, IN USA

[Dave Lamb 9]

OK...now let me address a couple of your other questions...

CRP = ETP. I haven't done a FP yet with FAR (US) fuel planning; I just did one with EU-OPS in a B763 and got CRPs as well. When I looked closely at the flight plan, like you, since I don't work with ETOPS in my current job, I remember ETPs as well, but CRP and ETP are the same thing. If you think about it, CRP is probably more accurate a term, since it implies the point by which you have to make a decision to go to airport A.

In my flight plan, there were two CRPs at the same location and time, but the time back to Gander was different than the time to Shannon. This is correct given the winds aloft consistent with the NAT track I was using.

As for the question of "telling the program" to use a specific NAT track, I didn't find a way to do that; however, in the RW, if I don't specify a route, it will default to the MFT for the flight (based on fuel -- not time). Here, it looks like it analyzes the winds and gives you the best NAT track for the wind conditions....kinda cool actually.

My guess is (and I'll know this with more experimentation), that if you put in a route yourself, you will probably get it back when you hit compute. I've got to play around some more with this, but again, to override the default route in the rw, I have to put in a route (either a canned one already built, or one I have to build from scratch). BTW, while I've said this, this program can build the route for you OR you can build a route on your own. How to do the latter I'm not quite there, but if I had to guess, once I put it in, it will do the ETOPS calculations based on the ETOPS diversion airports I specify for the route.

My guess is also the answer to your question about specifying a NAT track and then having the program build the route on both ends is NO. I suspect the reason has to do, again with RW, you don't build a route using a piece in the middle and then appending on both sides. Building a long haul route by hand involves looking at wx charts over a given time in progression, then planning the route in one continuous direction. If I have to do that in the rw by hand, my guess is that this program won't do it either.

One more word about the US vs. Europe originating thing....it's not the point you originate, it's the carrier (US or European) that drives the fuel policies and procedures used for the flight. I've explained how this works from the FAA perspective, so just remember which airline you are using and that will drive the rules you use.

Hope this helps....and again, more to follow.

Kind regards,

David Lamb

FAA Licensed Flight Dispatcher (Part 121)

[bvagner 0]

Could it be you are using the current Navigraph cycle? If so, download and install a new version of the Navigraph PFPX file. There were obviously some fixes missing in the old file.

As you can see in the screen I posted above, I use Navigraph 1309, which is the most recent one.

[FlightSimSoft.com 283]

As you can see in the screen I posted above, I use Navigraph 1309, which is the most recent one.

Your probllems are for sure related to a faulty Navigraph cycle.

They published one with many missing fixes.

Suggest to download Navigraph cycle 1309 again, this should cure your Problems.

[FlightSimSoft.com 283]

A couple questions about ETOPs and NAT planning that I can't find in the manual.

1. I've been messing around with settings. I am getting CRP's (critical points) for ETOP's instead of ETP's (equal time points). Can anyone enlighten me as to why I get one or other and what settings may need changing? As I understand it, ETP's should be for the ETOP's.

2. Is there a way to tell to program to use the NAT tracks? I find the auto route ignores them regardless. It's not until asking the program to find a wind optimized route that it puts me on a NAT.

3. Is there a way to tell the program to travel on a specific NAT, but otherwise auto build the route?

4. What fuel planning rules would a US originating flight to Europe (let's just say KBOS to EGLL) use? And on reverse?

1) If you are getting CRP, you have entered a single ETP alternate in the Advanced/ETOPS section. If you enter a pair of Alternates (e.g. EINN/CYYT) PFPX will calculate an ETP.

2) The Autorouter automatically uses NAT tracks, unless specifically ignored (Ignore Tracks). Your Problem seems to be related to a faulty Navigraph cycle (see other post)

3) Yes, right click on a fix on the desired track and choose 'Via'. PFPX will not plan a route via this fix (and Tracks)

4) Doesn't matter where the flight originates, but the operator's requirements (European Airline would use EU-OPS, US Airilne would use FAA Domestic or Flag)

[ridgey 26]

Hi there,

I am also getting same problem as OP. PFPX doesn't go on a NAT track, and i can confirm that on the map, entry points and exit points are missing.

p.s Now when i click show tracks on the Map, I only have Echo displaying

Alex

[ArneH 15]

How long does it take until PFPX gets new released tracks? E.g. the eastbound NAT for tonight where released at 1615z, when will I be able to compute a flightplan with it?

[Dave Lamb 9]

1) If you are getting CRP, you have entered a single ETP alternate in the Advanced/ETOPS section. If you enter a pair of Alternates (e.g. EINN/CYYT) PFPX will calculate an ETP.

2) The Autorouter automatically uses NAT tracks, unless specifically ignored (Ignore Tracks). Your Problem seems to be related to a faulty Navigraph cycle (see other post)

3) Yes, right click on a fix on the desired track and choose 'Via'. PFPX will not plan a route via this fix (and Tracks)

4) Doesn't matter where the flight originates, but the operator's requirements (European Airline would use EU-OPS, US Airilne would use FAA Domestic or Flag)

Hi Christian,

I loath to disagree, but I put in CYQX and EISN in as the ETOPS alternates and got CRPs and no ETP. Now I'm not so awfully sure that in this scenario it's a big deal, since the CRPs are at the same point and are at the midpoint of the ETOPS sector. However, I'll have to try it with three or more ETOPS alternates as ETPs then would become more of an issue. I can scan and send you the OFP if you like to demonstrate. Let me know and I'd be happy to help.

Kind regards,

Dave Lamb

[dashcapt 5]

Hi Christian,

I loath to disagree, but I put in CYQX and EISN in as the ETOPS alternates and got CRPs and no ETP. Now I'm not so awfully sure that in this scenario it's a big deal, since the CRPs are at the same point and are at the midpoint of the ETOPS sector. However, I'll have to try it with three or more ETOPS alternates as ETPs then would become more of an issue. I can scan and send you the OFP if you like to demonstrate. Let me know and I'd be happy to help.

Kind regards,

Dave Lamb

[dougsnow 50]

EISN is Shannon FIR - not the airport. Use EINN and report back

[FlightSimSoft.com 283]

If you want ETPs, you have to define a 'pair' between which airports the ETPS should be calculated.

Enter them vertically (see screenshots)

If you wnat CRPs, enter them horizontally

If a CRP or ETP is the 'better' Solutions is depending on the Scenario you are working on.

[bvagner 0]

Your probllems are for sure related to a faulty Navigraph cycle.

They published one with many missing fixes.

Suggest to download Navigraph cycle 1309 again, this should cure your Problems.

Ok, thanks for answer. It works -almost- fine now. I still have oddities* on longer routes planning, but it will be easier to modify manualy.

* 2 example of oddities founded :

- for a KPAE-LFPG route, it always, whatever the atlantic route (nat or random route) get me pass through HLN vor, which is 430nm eastbound Seattle, in the middle of nowhere, and force me a big hook over USA (flight plan route is +10% the great circle distance). I've to force to avoid HLN vor to get a very close to the orthodromical route (+2%).

- for a KSEA-PHNL route, I never use the A331 route, but always random points just a few nm rightbound the route. Cannot figure out why.

Kind regards,

[bvagner 0]

Your probllems are for sure related to a faulty Navigraph cycle.

They published one with many missing fixes.

Suggest to download Navigraph cycle 1309 again, this should cure your Problems.

I'm sorry, but actually, the problem isn't solved at all, I still have the same problem, even with Aersoft Airac 1309

Look yourself :

- The NAT A starts and finishes in the middle of nowhere

- The NAT B C & D doesn't even exist

Nevertheless, the NAT message is full

(NAT-1/3 TRACKS FLS 310/390 INCLUSIVE

SEP 01/1130Z TO SEP 01/1900Z

PART ONE OF THREE PARTS-

A SUNOT 59/20 63/30 65/40 66/50 EPMAN

EAST LVLS NIL

WEST LVLS 310 320 330 350 360 370 380 390

EUR RTS WEST NIL

NAR NIL-

B PIKIL 57/20 61/30 63/40 64/50 64/60 MUSVA DUTUM

EAST LVLS NIL

WEST LVLS 310 320 330 350 360 370 380 390

EUR RTS WEST NIL

NAR NIL-

C DINIM 51/20 51/30 50/40 48/50 NOVEP YYT

EAST LVLS NIL

WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390

EUR RTS WEST NIL

NAR NIL-

D SOMAX 50/20 50/30 49/40 47/50 RONPO COLOR

EAST LVLS NIL

WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390

EUR RTS WEST NIL

NAR NIL-

END OF PART ONE OF THREE PARTS)

(NAT-2/3 TRACKS FLS 310/390 INCLUSIVE

SEP 01/1130Z TO SEP 01/1900Z

PART TWO OF THREE PARTS-

E BEDRA 49/20 49/30 48/40 46/50 URTAK BANCS

EAST LVLS NIL

WEST LVLS 310 320 330 340 350 360 370 380 390

EUR RTS WEST NIL

NAR NIL-

F ETIKI 48/15 48/20 48/30 47/40 45/50 VODOR RAFIN

EAST LVLS NIL

WEST LVLS 310 320 340 350 360 370 380 390

EUR RTS WEST REGHI

NAR NIL-

G SEPAL 47/15 47/20 47/30 46/40 44/50 42/60 DOVEY

EAST LVLS NIL

WEST LVLS 310 320 340 350 360 370 380 390

EUR RTS WEST LAPEX

NAR NIL-

H 45/40 43/50 41/60 JOBOC

EAST LVLS NIL

WEST LVLS 320 340 360 380

EUR RTS WEST

NAR NIL-

END OF PART TWO OF THREE PARTS)

(NAT-3/3 TRACKS FLS 310/390 INCLUSIVE

SEP 01/1130Z TO SEP 01/1900Z

PART THREE OF THREE PARTS-

J 44/40 42/50 40/60 SLATN

EAST LVLS NIL

WEST LVLS 320 340 360 380

EUR RTS WEST

NAR NIL-

REMARKS.

1. TMI IS 244 AND OPERATORS ARE REMINDED TO INCLUDE THE

TMI NUMBER AS PART OF THE OCEANIC CLEARANCE READ BACK.

2. ADS-C AND CPDLC MANDATED OTS ARE AS FOLLOWS

NO ASSIGNED LEVELS

END OF ADS-C AND CPDLC MANDATED OTS

3. FOR STRATEGIC LATERAL OFFSET AND CONTINGENCY PROCEDURES RELATED TO

OPS IN NAT FLOW PLEASE REFER TO THE NAT PROGRAMME COORDINATION WEB

SITE AT WWW.PARIS.ICAO.CREWS ARE REMINDED TO OFFSET AT AND NOT BEFORE

THE OCEANIC ENTRY POINT AND MUST RETURN TO THE CENTRELINE PRIOR TO

THE OCEANIC EXIT POINT.

4.OPERATORS ARE REMINDED THAT THE CLEARANCE MAY DIFFER FROM YOUR

FLIGHT PLAN, FLY YOUR CLEARANCE.

5.UKAIP.ENR2.2-13 PARA3.5.2 STATES THAT NAT OPERATORS SHALL FILE

PRMS.

6.FLIGHTS REQUESTING WESTBOUND OCEANIC CLEARANCE VIA ORCA DATALINK

SHALL INCLUDE IN THE RMK/ FIELD THE HIGHEST ACCEPTABLE FLIGHT LEVEL

WHICH CAN BE MAINTAINED AT THE OAC ENTRY POINT.

7.DUE TO REYKJAVIK REQUIREMENTS, DURING THE PERIOD OF VALIDITY OF

THE WESTBOUND OTS, FLIGHT LEVEL 340 IS NOT AVAILABLE TO TRAFFIC

TRANSITING THE SHANWICK OCA WHICH HAS A LANDFALL BETWEEN PRAWN AND

KENKI INCLUSIVE-

END OF PART THREE OF THREE PARTS)

Honnestly, this problem starts to be very annoying, especially if your own airac doesn't match.

I've PFPX1.03 installed.

Thank your for help,

Benoît