Sharrow 107 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I can't help noticing that over the last year or so the amount of casual fs related chit chat on this general forum has essentially come to an end and I am seriously struggling to remember the last time there was an interesting conversation going on around here. In a word this general forum has become boring. The thing is that Mathijs will be the first to tell you that the community is what keeps people engaged and interested in their hobby, and he would be right of course. Flight simming by its very nature is something one does mostly in private and as such online communities of fellow simmers offer a whole extra dimension to the hobby. Getting to read and comment on what other people have or have not discovered is an important part of keeping the hobby alive and current. Of course there are one or two other FS-centric boards out there where one can get exactly this sense of community but my point is that one does not get it here at Aerosoft (at least not anymore) and that, in my opinion, is a great shame indeed. Funnily enough it is the lack of posts by Simon (Snave) which started me thinking about what I am now writing. Simon, pretty much single-handedly, has been responsible for putting off a significant number of people over the years who had the willingness (if not always the superior technical knowledge) to make a community of this forum. And that is pretty sad actually. Now it seems he has moved on and who can blame him considering how sterile this environment has become. But let's not give Simon all the credit shall we! The pinned topic in the general forum discouraging talk about other developers (and even freeware) products is also just as guilty. I can certainly understand this rule applying in all the various support sub-forums but to have it apply to the general forum as well is in my opinion a real community killer. Hopefully this post can shake things up a little around here as I am sad to see the direction that this community is headed. Please, oh please, feel free to disagree!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaspis29 29 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Agreed :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emi 5161 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I think all peoples are just sitting in front of their new NGX Well I have to go back to it now, bye 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerosoft Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558 Posted August 11, 2011 Aerosoft Share Posted August 11, 2011 Ahhh Snave. He's absent because he's under moderation. He went to far and we decided we wanted to read his posts before he could post them for a while. Now I think we all agree that Snave got a big and often nasty mouth. He's also rather skilled at trolling. Yet while doing so he often points out things that need pointing out. And he has vast knowledge and I can point out many messages where he assisted us or other users. Just check the Katana forum, he knows that engine and helped other a lot. He knows how I feel about him and he knows he will stay under supervision. But I will remove the moderation check on his posts and let him back in. I have been moderating forums for 15 years in some form and I have never banned anybody fully that was not a racist or a spammer. If you feel Snave behaves bad, let me know. We'll not budge on the 'other companies software' thing. We have always allowed it to be discussed to some degree but it is hard to avoid it getting out of hand. See no matter how you turn it, this is an Aerosoft forum and part of our PR. It's intended to promote and support Aerosoft products. Now we have seen our forum used to promote or bash other peoples products (Airsimmers comes to mind in both cases, lol) and both things are not right. There are many forums without commercial links that would welcome these posts. Also keep in mind it is summer, we had forum upgrades and not a lot of releases. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaspis29 29 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Ahhh Snave. He's absent because he's under moderation. He went to far and we decided we wanted to read his posts before he could post them for a while. Now I think we all agree that Snave got a big and often nasty mouth. He's also rather skilled at trolling. Yet while doing so he often points out things that need pointing out. And he has vast knowledge and I can point out many messages where he assisted us or other users. Just check the Katana forum, he knows that engine and helped other a lot. He knows how I feel about him and he knows he will stay under supervision. But I will remove the moderation check on his posts and let him back in. I have been moderating forums for 15 years in some form and I have never banned anybody fully that was not a racist or a spammer. If you feel Snave behaves bad, let me know. We'll not budge on the 'other companies software' thing. We have always allowed it to be discussed to some degree but it is hard to avoid it getting out of hand. See no matter how you turn it, this is an Aerosoft forum and part of our PR. It's intended to promote and support Aerosoft products. Now we have seen our forum used to promote or bash other peoples products (Airsimmers comes to mind in both cases, lol) and both things are not right. There are many forums without commercial links that would welcome these posts. Also keep in mind it is summer, we had forum upgrades and not a lot of releases. As far as I can say your supervision in this forum (haven't seen the others) for the time I've been here has been good, sometimes excellent. From the side of comparison, I haven't and I'm never going to promote anything that competes with Aerosoft products, but as far as the interfierance with products that have been made by Aerosoft and another company I can say that mostly I would say: Aerosoft, and why can't I express that the other thing... well... nicely saying is bad. I'm not a part of the Aerosoft team nor I represent anyone in the case if I speak that will bring down any commercial aspect for the company. I haven't (I hope) crossed any rules of ethics, but time to time I would like to give a fair comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerosoft Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558 Posted August 11, 2011 Aerosoft Share Posted August 11, 2011 As far as I can say your supervision in this forum (haven't seen the others) for the time I've been here has been good, sometimes excellent. From the side of comparison, I haven't and I'm never going to promote anything that competes with Aerosoft products, but as far as the interfierance with products that have been made by Aerosoft and another company I can say that mostly I would say: Aerosoft, and why can't I express that the other thing... well... nicely saying is bad. I'm not a part of the Aerosoft team nor I represent anyone in the case if I speak that will bring down any commercial aspect for the company. I haven't (I hope) crossed any rules of ethics, but time to time I would like to give a fair comparison. Yeah but.... consider if we are a commercial partner of a company and handle a few thousand of their boxed products every year. They bring out a product that is not as good everybody wants and people burn it down on our forum. You can believe me that the CEO of that company will talk to me. Or remember Airsimmers who told us they would start legal action if we showed any direct comparison between there Airbus and ours. Even when customers posted it. It's all in the tone however. Your posts are almost without a doubt well documented, written with knowledge and a pleasure to read. If they were all like that the whole rule would hardly worthy of mentioning. But they are not. We all know how easy it is to let a discussion online go out of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rónán O Cadhain 71 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I do miss all the banter that went on these forums, It was great up and until the Airbus X was released and after that it took a rather steep decline. The PMDG forum has now taken over a "the" FS forum, for the time being anyway. And, if it matters, I liked Snave's direct, to the point and blunt answers, he said what needed to be said and didn't pussyfoot around it. Okay, sometimes a bit crude but hey-hoe, it works. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snave 466 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I can't help noticing that over the last year or so the amount of casual fs related chit chat on this general forum has essentially come to an end and I am seriously struggling to remember the last time there was an interesting conversation going on around here. In a word this general forum has become boring. The thing is that Mathijs will be the first to tell you that the community is what keeps people engaged and interested in their hobby, and he would be right of course. Flight simming by its very nature is something one does mostly in private and as such online communities of fellow simmers offer a whole extra dimension to the hobby. Getting to read and comment on what other people have or have not discovered is an important part of keeping the hobby alive and current. Of course there are one or two other FS-centric boards out there where one can get exactly this sense of community but my point is that one does not get it here at Aerosoft (at least not anymore) and that, in my opinion, is a great shame indeed. Funnily enough it is the lack of posts by Simon (Snave) which started me thinking about what I am now writing. Simon, pretty much single-handedly, has been responsible for putting off a significant number of people over the years who had the willingness (if not always the superior technical knowledge) to make a community of this forum. And that is pretty sad actually. Now it seems he has moved on and who can blame him considering how sterile this environment has become. But let's not give Simon all the credit shall we! The pinned topic in the general forum discouraging talk about other developers (and even freeware) products is also just as guilty. I can certainly understand this rule applying in all the various support sub-forums but to have it apply to the general forum as well is in my opinion a real community killer. Hopefully this post can shake things up a little around here as I am sad to see the direction that this community is headed. Please, oh please, feel free to disagree!!!! I obviously disagree. The main reason that erudite and informed persons leave fora is generally that the forum starts pandering to the lowest common denominator, and in so doing leaves educated, informed debate behind, to be replaced by banal, facile repetition for the mindless and those too dumb to think for themselves. I know of NO forum in the flight simulation community that has ever improved from choosing to cater to the least intelligent... perhaps you can provide some pointers? The reason that things become boring is because the zest is gone, the entertainment value is gone, the education value has disappeared - or regular attendees drift away because every time they visit, they see the same old sh*t about opening bloody doors, or engines cutting out above 20,000 feet. And like it or loathe it ( and I neither know nor care which), part of the zest for visitors to fora comes from the excitement of seeing who has been stupid enough to take on the clever dicks, or smart enough to beat them at their own game. Not to mention accuracy of response and informed advice and guidance. Your post lacks perspicacity and awareness. The forum is boring because YOU make it so. Not you as an individual of course, although we all thank you for your contributions (having viewed your recent posting history, I am sure others will see what I mean...) but rather because having identified what you perceive as being the reason, YOU as a forum user have taken absolutely no responsibility to do anything about it... And that, gentlemen, is where the problem truly is. And that is the blunt and straightforward truth. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rónán O Cadhain 71 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Well Snave hit on something there, this forum has turned into a place where people only ask the most basic of questions and seek support that can only be provided by the Aerosoft team. No longer do they pose questions that challenge us who know more, or for that most part even arouse our interest. They are so basic, we leave them to those below us. Everyday I view the Aerosoft forums and everyday I'm met with the same old tripe, some support questions and some applause of up and coming projects, nothing new, nothing interesting. The PMDG forums have become my main forum now, as questions asked there are challenging, you get a range of answers and insights that has been lost from this forum. Aerosoft needs a new project that will spark the interest of the advanced simmers and pilots and draw them back to this forum. Sceneries are nice, but it needs a good aircraft project to really excite interest in the community. The DA CRJ could have done this, but unfortunately due to circumstances beyond control, this project has been dragged out too long. The airbus advanced project could have done this, but unfortunately, it is hidden deep in the depths of the aerosoft forums. Perhaps the BAE project could be the solution to all this silence if it was handled well and got the community involved, we shall see. *Personally, I'd love to see the FSlabs airbus project forums brought into the aerosoft ones, as that would really get the community going, but for that we shall have to see, given that the project pertially competes with the Airbus X project. Hopefully we'll see movement soon anyway, and all the best to Aerosoft. *Admins feel free to remove this line if yee see fit. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snave 466 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Well, we certainly see the excessive zealotry of the `are we nearly there yet` crowd far too often for my tastes, but I do think Aerosoft need to accept some culpability that having announced a project they then allow the preview topics to slowly drift into limbo. As a marketing expert, my advice would always be to wait until you have a finished, market-ready product THEN start the building process of campaign and awareness, certain in the knowledge that as the interest reaches its crescendo, so the product lands with a mighty shockwave, not a dull thud..! In the modern age, and given the proclivity of developers and publishers to wack it out in Wednesday, tell everybody on Thursday, but only finish it on Friday, I think we have to recognise that is probably not going to happen... Among publishers Aerosoft are the best at getting the timescales right (I'm thinking here about the `never ready` projects from able, established teams that take longer to come to fruition than the real-life product they replicate in the virtual world) but topic boredom is directly related to the two-way street of `information and comment`... And what tends to make the waters tepid is when the heightened interest and joyous expectation is allowed to dribble down the drain of disinterest. And the same can be applied to forum topics: There are some bloody interesting topics in this forum, but they are surrounded by a miasma of mediocrity, meaningless and moronic.The forum can only be as good as the participants, but that applies equally to the quality of the contributor. And if the contribution is ###############, then ferchrissakes tell them so, don't sit around pretending that tolerance is better than a virtual kick in the teeth. One makes them think they're valued, the other lets them know for certain they're not. No doubt, no obfuscation. If you can't make the qualifying, you ain't gettin' in... and that is how you inspire, cajole or persuade contributors to raise their game. In any event, it doesn't matter how you do it, only the result. Because that result benefits EVERYONE. So if it's a sophisticated product and it is apparent the question is coming from someone who chews crayons and has `L` and `R` embroidered on his velcro-tied trainers, let them know THEY are the ones out of step, that THEY should raise their game. There are plenty of forums catering for beginners - even here. But why here? When the product range goes from semi-sophisticated all the way to virtually sucked pitot tubes as part of the pre-flight..? Managing expectation is a business by-word these days. But do we all appreciate it actually applies not just to the vendor, but also the end user? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rónán O Cadhain 71 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 +1 I mean for example, the BEA 146 project was anounced over a year and a half ago in May '10, I know aerosoft probably expected it to go faster, but we havn't even seen a screen shot yet, IMO, the topic should be deleted and then restarted when some tangible progress has been made. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharrow 107 Posted August 11, 2011 Author Share Posted August 11, 2011 Your post lacks perspicacity and awareness. The forum is boring because YOU make it so. Not you as an individual of course, although we all thank you for your contributions (having viewed your recent posting history, I am sure others will see what I mean...) but rather because having identified what you perceive as being the reason, YOU as a forum user have taken absolutely no responsibility to do anything about it... This post is doing something about it. As is questioning the policy of "no talk about anyone other than ourselves" in this forum. To me this policy looks EXACTLY like pandering to the lowest common denominator. It is saying that we live in fear of what may crawl out from the gutter spewing mortal hatred against this or other product. Mathijs mentions he has never banned anyone in 15 years and at first glance I was impressed. Wow, cool customer. But you know what - perhaps banning people who cannot control themselves is exactly what he should be doing. And yes, that includes you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rónán O Cadhain 71 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Lads, it's getting a little personal here now. At least what this topic has done is brought to light the elephant that is in the room, and now that elephant needs to be addressed, fixed, and hopefully removed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rónán O Cadhain 71 Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Strange thing I just noticed was that on Tuesday, the most ever users online on the aerosoft forums was recorded, yet nothing appears to have come of it... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerclaw 31 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 This post is doing something about it. As is questioning the policy of "no talk about anyone other than ourselves" in this forum. To me this policy looks EXACTLY like pandering to the lowest common denominator. It is saying that we live in fear of what may crawl out from the gutter spewing mortal hatred against this or other product. Mathijs mentions he has never banned anyone in 15 years and at first glance I was impressed. Wow, cool customer. But you know what - perhaps banning people who cannot control themselves is exactly what he should be doing. And yes, that includes you. Banning someone from a support forum is never a good idea. I am banned from the *****soft forums after questioning the attitude of the support staff. I bought one of their products, it didn't work as stated, and I questioned the remedies. My post was edited to look like I was swearing, and I didn't like it. I called the guy out on it, and again was edited to look like I was swearing and using foul language, I wasn't. In the end I DID use foul language in the sense I told him what I really thought of him. He didn't like it, and I got banned for life. Why have brought this up? Because not only did he lose MY custom, but the custom of all my friends too. We now boycott that companies products. After all, why buy something and not be able to get support for it? Snave has berated me many times, and do I dislike him for it? No! I find his posts stimulating, even when he's tearing a strip off me personally. I find the way he writes very interesting, more akin to reading a book from a famous author. He's way out of my league for any competition, and I can't wait for the day someone comes on the forum who DOES have the education to stimulate his mind even further. He DOES help many people with technical problems, even if he does use big words that many probably don't understand. I for one will be very disappointed if he, or anyone like him, got banned for speaking his mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snave 466 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Yes, I'd noticed that as well. But the problem is not, and never has been the quantity. Only the quality... We place emphasis on tolerance for the less able, but then do not seem to want to apply that same level of excusability to the more able. A dichotomy when it is the `less able` that need the help, while the `more able` that provide it are increasingly driven away by the exposition of stupidity when they want to enjoy a higher plane (sic) of discussion... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharrow 107 Posted August 12, 2011 Author Share Posted August 12, 2011 I am left with the impression that community is simply not really a priority on these forums. At least not in the sense in which I understand the word. On the one hand we have clear rules prohibiting discussion about anything not developed directly by Aerosoft (as opposed to published by Aerosoft in case anyone was wondering) and on the other we have Simon who's crusade in life is a seemingly insatiable need to instruct others in what HE thinks is important (mixed in with some very usefull support to those who's level of competence warrants it of course). Here are extracts from the (obviously commercial yet also very successful) OrbX Community forums pertaining directly to the two issues at hand: "While we are quite happy to have constructive comparative conversations about competitor's products, we will not tolerate blatant adverts for competitors software. Also, we would appreciate it if you refrain from blatant bashing of other boards or Orbx competitor's products. If you wish to make comparisons to competitive products please do so in the form of a balance pros/cons review or discussion." and "While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. Our decision is final in these matters." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snave 466 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Yes, but it is allied to an absence of excessive tolerance for those who cannot or will not think for themselves. They have a product range in a narrow band, and the expectation for the qualifications and perspicacity of the user base is reflected in the manner and approach with which they deal with stupid questions. One can reasonably argue that dumb questions are rude and insulting to the more experienced who attend a forum in expectation of concerted, informed information and debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simbakater 73 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Lot of this postings are nothing but bullhave a nice day; sorry to say so!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerosoft Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558 Posted August 12, 2011 Aerosoft Share Posted August 12, 2011 I am left with the impression that community is simply not really a priority on these forums. At least not in the sense in which I understand the word. And you are probably right. This is a community based around Aerosoft and not around simulation.With over a million pageviews a month and ever increasing accounts I would say we are not putting off people. --------- Few comments. I enjoyed this conversation more then most I seen here in weeks. In that aspect Sharrow hit the nail right on the head. I also saw Snave get more plus votes then ever before, so either he got his family involved or there are people who enjoy his rants and raves as much as I do. There is a thin line between being direct and blunt and insulting people. If that line would be fixed it would be hard, but it's not. It's not that people are all different but also that cultures are different. Put a Frenchman and a Dutchmen together and watch how culture can start wars. Even the way they greet each other causes problems. Even though that's hardly disputable, most Europeans have major problems understanding how different Americans can be. Some Amercan friends I got will use language that will be frowned up in bars in Amsterdam and see it as totally normal, while others seem to be looking for a bible and American flag all the time. I got problems with both of those groups, but not more than with some of my own relatives. I told it before but I was banned from the old Compuserve Flight Simulation forums (a long time ago THE place to be, in fact it was about the only place TO go) because I wanted to write SHIFT-F4 and forgot the F. Even though I was a moderator there I was banned for months. Everybody said they believed it was an honest mistake but rules were rules. I'll never moderate like that. There is however only one person you can call an idiot at this forum and that's me. I get paid for that. Nobody else does. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaspis29 29 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 There is however only one person you can call an idiot at this forum and that's me. I get paid for that. Nobody else does. Shaun?(paying part) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharrow 107 Posted August 12, 2011 Author Share Posted August 12, 2011 And you are probably right. This is a community based around Aerosoft and not around simulation.With over a million pageviews a month and ever increasing accounts I would say we are not putting off people. On the other hand the rise in page views and new accounts could also be attributed to the fact that Aerosoft is selling an ever wider range of products and as such more and more people are looking for support/information. The question though remains - do these new accounts decide to "hang around" here after they have recieved their dose of "support" and splash of "pr"? Would it not be better pr in the long term if more of them did? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snave 466 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 Lot of this postings are nothing but bullhave a nice day; sorry to say so!! Intellectually, you had nothing to say. Yet had to say it... In the light of the foregoing please consider whether you are part of the solution, or part of the problem. Instead of apologising, you should have stayed silent. And that's the real rudeness, right there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snave 466 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 On the other hand the rise in page views and new accounts could also be attributed to the fact that Aerosoft is selling an ever wider range of products and as such more and more people are looking for support/information. The question though remains - do these new accounts decide to "hang around" here after they have recieved their dose of "support" and splash of "pr"? Would it not be better pr in the long term if more of them did? If what you are saying is that you intend playing a more informational role in forum activities and will start providing cognitive assistance then yes, I'm all for it. But with that ever widening base also comes the risk of repetitiveness, inane questions and frankly foolish comment. Are you prepared to take a stand and actually assist in the long term..? Proselytising is only semantics unless it is transformed into action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerclaw 31 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 If what you are saying is that you intend playing a more informational role in forum activities and will start providing cognitive assistance then yes, I'm all for it. But with that ever widening base also comes the risk of repetitiveness, inane questions and frankly foolish comment. Are you prepared to take a stand and actually assist in the long term..? Proselytising is only semantics unless it is transformed into action. I personally can honestly say, "No" to that question. I'm not prepared to keep answering the same old questions time and time again, when most of the answers are a search away. What fascinates me is the way that post was written. I became a little more educated simply because I had to look up one of the words to understand it, and see it in context. I sincerely hope you have an intellectual equal to converse with in real life. The gift of words is a wonderful thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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