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Constructive Critism


ridgey

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Hi there,

I wanted to really ask some questions on where aerosoft is at recently, i want to build a balanced post, and i don't want to be flamed for saying stuff that i don't think is going well.

Firstly

Positives==

It makes me so proud that you have this charity in Ethopia, you didn't have to do it, but you have. The recently record break on IVAO with over 2300 people online at once, led to 2300euros being donated to this charity. I think this was a brave and an extremely commendable decision, and i think you deserve all the praise you can get.

The quality of your scenery making [in house developers] kinda advanced over 2010, it was a big step up from older sceneries in terms of performance and quality, congradulations :).

Negatives==

I think customer/staff relations is strained at late, i will make some examples;

The Airbus X still doesn't work properly on most people's machines, but the thing that dissappoint's greatly is the lack of news and updates, i check the forum and it seems to be just the community posting.

AES. Oli is a busy man outside the relms of flight sim, this we know, but i feel this area of development needs more people to help OLI out. I say this becuase most people who have spent hundreds on FS addons like to fly to airports that are supported by AES.. I will chose airports if they have AES, highly above those which don't. I feel that high quality sceneries are being developed quicker than the AES support that comes for them, would it be out of the question to increase the size of this area of aersoft, AES is a vital tool to many of us.

Unfinished projects update? - My example is the CRJ. Firstly i want to make it clear that I never wish to push and put pressure on a software for release before it is ready. For the CRJ [like NGX], many are just waiting patiently for the completion of the project, when it's ready it's ready, BUT, i feel it is good PA to keep the community updated, which is not really happening, saying stuff like, we just finished this area of the project waiting on this to do this, etc goes a very very long way, pictures/videos go further ;).

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Marriages have the Seven Year Itch, Sims have the Four Year Fumble.

FSX is now a mature product, yet still has not - and now never will - acheive the broad-based acceptance within the market of previous iterations. A far more complex product to develop for than FS9, expectations among simmers are rising, yet tolerance of the implications of that demand are remaining for most, at some child-like level:- "Are we nearly there yet..?" :mellow:

It's not just staff that influence customer staff relations...

What we need to see is a more educated and informed mindset among consumers, not some backbiting about a product that isn't what it was never intended to be, but which is by dint of customer insistence, evolving into more than was intended. Why would that be anything other than slow..?

Development cycles are longer because of the increasing sophistication desired in the product, but also due to the global financial position reducing the number on development teams, extending cycle times from revelation to RTM considerably and in many cases requiring the actual persons involved to work across several different projects at the same time, usually for less money. And that's not just in the sim world... :unsure:

Not flaming, but in constructive criticism, I would suggest that your post is really to satisfy YOUR demands and requirements, and not to do with any observation or recognition of the issues involved. Also if you wish to offer constructive criticism, perhaps you could also spend a little more time on the grammar if you wish to be taken seriously.

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  • Aerosoft

Hi there,

I wanted to really ask some questions on where aerosoft is at recently, i want to build a balanced post, and i don't want to be flamed for saying stuff that i don't think is going well.

Firstly

Positives==

It makes me so proud that you have this charity in Ethopia, you didn't have to do it, but you have. The recently record break on IVAO with over 2300 people online at once, led to 2300euros being donated to this charity. I think this was a brave and an extremely commendable decision, and i think you deserve all the praise you can get.

The quality of your scenery making [in house developers] kinda advanced over 2010, it was a big step up from older sceneries in terms of performance and quality, congradulations :).

Negatives==

I think customer/staff relations is strained at late, i will make some examples;

The Airbus X still doesn't work properly on most people's machines, but the thing that dissappoint's greatly is the lack of news and updates, i check the forum and it seems to be just the community posting.

AES. Oli is a busy man outside the relms of flight sim, this we know, but i feel this area of development needs more people to help OLI out. I say this becuase most people who have spent hundreds on FS addons like to fly to airports that are supported by AES.. I will chose airports if they have AES, highly above those which don't. I feel that high quality sceneries are being developed quicker than the AES support that comes for them, would it be out of the question to increase the size of this area of aersoft, AES is a vital tool to many of us.

Unfinished projects update? - My example is the CRJ. Firstly i want to make it clear that I never wish to push and put pressure on a software for release before it is ready. For the CRJ [like NGX], many are just waiting patiently for the completion of the project, when it's ready it's ready, BUT, i feel it is good PA to keep the community updated, which is not really happening, saying stuff like, we just finished this area of the project waiting on this to do this, etc goes a very very long way, pictures/videos go further ;).

I'll have another look at the open items on the Airbus but last time I did so (few weeks ago) there was simply not a lot that we could solve. We see the same items coming up and up and we give the same advise over and over. And as far as we know it solves what is reported on. Keep in mind that this is one of our best selling products, of the many thousands of customers we see only a small fraction contact support. But a fraction of many of a lot. It's the curse of a public support forum. Customers with a problem write, happy customers fly ans this makes the overall tone always negative after you sold a few thousand copies.

For AES you got to keep in mind that we simply can not support all airports for technical reasons and that there are developers who simply refuse to work along. Resources has very little to do with how many airports are supported.

About the updates about projects. I think there is no other company that keeps potential customers as informed as we. The moment we got something to show we put it online. For the CRJ we posted weekly updates and I think you will be hard pushed to find a non published project as publicly shown. However we only are only a partial developer of this project. We supply parts and will sell it. But it is not a project we manage. DA does that.

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Unfinished projects update? - My example is the CRJ. Firstly i want to make it clear that I never wish to push and put pressure on a software for release before it is ready. For the CRJ [like NGX], many are just waiting patiently for the completion of the project, when it's ready it's ready, BUT, i feel it is good PA to keep the community updated, which is not really happening, saying stuff like, we just finished this area of the project waiting on this to do this, etc goes a very very long way, pictures/videos go further ;).

Ridgey, I really would know no other company apart from Aerosoft who keeps customers informed as they do. It's what I love about them. Just got to the Bronco topic in the preview forum. You see it grow before your eyes. I think you only look at the CRJ, as far as I know not an internal project of Aerosoft. I know they done the modeling and you can not say they did not show what was done on that part. I enjoyed the weekly updates of that project and it looks like little else I seen in FSX.

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Thank you Matthias for your time to answer this thread, appricated greatly.

For sure, you guys are very good at putting up new previews,, its something that other develops do not do. I think you have the right idea about it.

Regarding the Airbus, i didn't realise that circles of problem and suggested fixes were going round so much, so thank you for the clarity.

Regarding AES, I know of a couple of developers that are awaiting support, i just think that the software can do so much more, the basic vehicle and set up, has been around really since the begining of the release, maybe some new feautures/ but again, it takes resources and time..

Also can we have a little subforum about the progress on the Ethopian project? [unless i have missed it,] and can we get involved?

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I'll have another look at the open items on the Airbus but last time I did so (few weeks ago) there was simply not a lot that we could solve. We see the same items coming up and up and we give the same advise over and over. And as far as we know it solves what is reported on. Keep in mind that this is one of our best selling products, of the many thousands of customers we see only a small fraction contact support. But a fraction of many of a lot. It's the curse of a public support forum. Customers with a problem write, happy customers fly ans this makes the overall tone always negative after you sold a few thousand copies.

For AES you got to keep in mind that we simply can not support all airports for technical reasons and that there are developers who simply refuse to work along. Resources has very little to do with how many airports are supported.

About the updates about projects. I think there is no other company that keeps potential customers as informed as we. The moment we got something to show we put it online. For the CRJ we posted weekly updates and I think you will be hard pushed to find a non published project as publicly shown. However we only are only a partial developer of this project. We supply parts and will sell it. But it is not a project we manage. DA does that.

Regarding the Airbus: You are writing in every update which comes that problems like the INOP Chrono switch can be fixed soon. HOW SOON IS SOON? This problem is known since the Airbusses release, and you say it would be easy to fix it. So why don't you do it?

Also think about those many customers who don't even think about contacting the support. Keep in mind that the Airbus X is for not experienced simmers. I could bet that there are many simmers who just want to fly after work. They just don't take the time for contacting the support or visiting the forum.

And also you can't see if the Bus is used or if it is in the hangar after one week because it is to buggy.

In the last point about the Bus you're right of cause. The customers who don't have problems (or don't want/aren't able to report) aren't always going into the forum and say how great the Bus is.

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Regarding AES, I know of a couple of developers that are awaiting support, i just think that the software can do so much more, the basic vehicle and set up, has been around really since the begining of the release, maybe some new feautures/ but again, it takes resources and time..

I've always thought that perhaps more frequent updates for AES would be nice, like 5 new airports each month as opposed to 15 every three (of course this mightn't be feasible, but if it were) , and that the basic

opperations of AES could be updated a little as nothing much has changed in the product since its creation apart from some new textures...

But praise where praise is due, AES is brilliant, its my favourite addon and the one I use the most often, So thanks a million to Oliver for that...:wub:

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Hello Ridgey,

Mathijs is absolutely correct regarding the Airbus X Forums.

Everything that can go wrong has gone wrong and folks have posted these issues sometimes many times over.

So basically if people go to that forum they would then find there issue has been written before and most probably been answered numerous times.

We have left certain Items that may be troublesome with detailed posts with suggestions and who to contact with dll.xml and FADEC.txt files should they need to.

The forums have a very good but often under used Search function which we have made mention of in the forum.

A lot of forums have a policy whereby if a question has been asked before and a resolution given they wont reply to it simply because there is a "Search" facility.

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One more thing about AES: It is (not only in my opinion) the best addon there is on the market for both, FS9 and FSX, and it has the most customer-friendly way of working: you only pay for what you really want/need.

Got a scenery pack with lots of airports but only use 1 or 2? You'll never have this problem with AES. You decide where and when you want to use it.

There is only one limitation for this great product: it is - as you mentioned - the fact that somebody has to write the code for an AES airport. This takes time and skill and Oliver is the man to do it. There are still a lot of airports that will get AES in the future, but looking at the current list I would say that AES already spread all over the world: http://www.aerosoft.com/shop-re/links/aesairports.html ;)

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I have to agree with JimLacie on this. Aerosoft have, within the boundaries of what is achievable in a complex variable environment like software development got about the best balance between information and availability on forthcoming products.

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  • Deputy Sheriffs

One more thing about AirbusX: ;)

Although I never experienced problems like CTD, heavy nosedive etc. with AirbusX, I understand customers frustration. And I know there are always hints and suggestions to solve the problem, but they are difficult to find. And as there is no further SP for the Airbus announced so far, why not put this suggestions/hints from Aerosoft together in one or more (refering to the different problems) stickies?

I know other forums, where you can mark threads as "solved", so maybe this could be another improvement.

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why not put this suggestions/hints from Aerosoft together in one or more (refering to the different problems) stickies?

I know other forums, where you can mark threads as "solved", so maybe this could be another improvement.

I like that, it might even stop those too lazy or unsure of how to use the search function asking the same questions over and over if they can see a pinned post with solutions to common issues.

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  • Developer

...and that the basic opperations of AES could be updated a little as nothing much has changed in the product since its creation apart from some new textures...

Work in process...

removed

I post something here, but the response just one post later shows me, that there are person outside, spending just 1 minute for a full analyse about what they just see, no need to invest more then this, sorry, this is not in any relation to what is needed to improve addons, what we all spend in time to make all this possible. It is easy to request something, to request more resources, to ask for more addons, new ideas. To realise them, needs sometimes a littlebit more, then only 5 Minutes. And if you saw a screen, you always find someone who is able to state that nothing change. So, have a nice time and wait for what is released, no preview, now discussion about whats going on. When it's ready, it is shown, you can buy it or not.

Learned my lesson today.

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Work in process...

Very nice!!! but as above it's just a new model and texture, no new functionality,

For example; the Fuel truck is still on the left as opposed to the common right side position to facilitate the boarding of pax at the same time as refueling... Also it might be nice to perhaps model actual pax walking from plane to bus / terminal, or have baggage carts actually go to the plane and baggage or ULD's that go up the belts... obviously this would have an FPS effect so perhaps the option to disable it on the AES menu... Just some suggestions.

But, it does look great and any improvement is always welcome, thanks in advance.

Rónán.

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Regarding the Airbus X...

We know that there are some issues, but please note the difference between bugs and missing features.

The questions and bad critics that keep comming up are:

-CTD's

-Nosedive on AP disconnect

-Throttle inop for some users

-Missing SID / STAR and Holdings

-Missing proper VNAV system

The bad thing about the CTD's is that we know where in the code it happens, but we really don´t know why and therefore how to fix it.

Nothing in our code should cause it. This has been tested over and over again. Something weird is happening deep inside FSX, wich our debugging tools can´t reveal. This doesn´t mean that MS is responsible. It simply means we cannont fix something that isn´t broken, but simply isn´t 100% compatile with FSX.

But it mainly only happens when exiting or re-loading the Airbus X, and really shouldn´t mean a hazard for Your flight.

Bad excuse, but simply a honest description of the problem.

The throttle issue is really pesky.

We have suggested some possible fixes, but again this is one of those issues that we can´t explain.

Though it isn´t an solution, I´m sure that people with this issue can get a refund.

Regarding the nosedive when disconnecting the autopilot..

This is due to the fact that we have used the default FSX FBW system, wich btw is totally unexplained in the FSX SDK.

We didn´t know about this behaviour before very late in the project.

The only fix would be to custom code our own FBW system, wich would require some really serious C++ programming.

If You disengage the AP timely, You can still succeed to correct the nosedive. If You want to land manually, You will allready know that at 5000 ft.

Bad excuse again maybe but saying that it can´t be landed either with autoland or by hand flying is plain wrong.

I think I have landed the bus more than 100 times wihout crashing (CTD in the end though when exiting ;)).

The missing SID, STAR, Holding and VNAV I simply won´t discuss, because that has been emphasised 100 times with capital letters ever since we announced the project and are not even bugs, but simply missing features.

The problem with Airbus X was that customer expectations and demands was too high.

Thats why we continually emphasised what the project was about, but alot of people wouldn´t listen, bought it and started pointing out missing features that clearly had been told.

Problem was also that we started out planning something even simpler than what the Airbus X eventually became.

This meant that we really streched the limit and sometimes even surpassed it with the technics used for coding the various systems.

With hindsight this was a wrong move, wich cannot be rolled back.

But note the Airbus X is still a succesfull product within it´s set limitations. Even real airlinepilots has stated that this is the perfect addon

for their sparetime entertainment.

I simply stopped monitoring the Airbus X forum, cause the same issues kept popping up over and over, though allready answered numerous times.

Snave comes the truth very near, saying that customer expectations has reached unseen levels, hard to achieve.

Customer demands means that developement time has risen considerable, though the price for addons has remained very much the same.

We all like to msee addons as realistic as possible, but we also need to accept that FSX has it´s limits.

FSX is not a professional simulator, but merely a complex flying game (I know this will cause an outrage).

Believe me...

I spend more than 15 month on the Airbus X, 30 hours per week - so did the rest of the developement team, some even spending more hours on it. No one wants to see those 3 major bugs fixed more than my fellow developers and I.

If we could... then we would !

Just my few words on this...

Finn

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Oh That's too cool. A topic where we can speak frankly and freely ?

The thing is Aerosoft gives the impression to leave deliberately and silently the flighsim market.. I say GIVE THE IMPPRESSION.

In the previews forum, there are no further news anymore and slowly but shurely, RoS and trains sim projects are taking the largest place.

OR, Is it just that Aerosoft dont want to communicate anyomore ? Is it just that is so easier to "drop" new stuff just like

that, throwing some eat to...

FS consumers might need to be educated but come on, we need some ethics too.

:byesad_s:

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Oh That's too cool. A topic where we can speak frankly and freely ?

The thing is Aerosoft gives the impression to leave deliberately and silently the flighsim market.. I say GIVE THE IMPPRESSION.

In the previews forum, there are no further news anymore and slowly but shurely, RoS and trains sim projects are taking the largest place.

OR, Is it just that Aerosoft dont want to communicate anyomore ? Is it just that is so easier to "drop" new stuff just like

that, throwing some eat to...

FS consumers might need to be educated but come on, we need some ethics too.

:byesad_s:

I really don´t understand what You mean ?

Look in the preview forum:

Aircraft:

-Bronco X

-Dimona X

-Robin X

-Bell 205 Huey

-CRJ

-F-14

-Dimond Katana X

-Bae 146

Scenery:

-Vilnius X

-Antarctica X

Thats only stuff from Aerosoft internal developement.

If thats nothing new for the future ?

Finn

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Oh That's too cool. A topic where we can speak frankly and freely ?

The thing is Aerosoft gives the impression to leave deliberately and silently the flighsim market.. I say GIVE THE IMPPRESSION.

In the previews forum, there are no further news anymore and slowly but shurely, RoS and trains sim projects are taking the largest place.

OR, Is it just that Aerosoft dont want to communicate anyomore ? Is it just that is so easier to "drop" new stuff just like

that, throwing some eat to...

FS consumers might need to be educated but come on, we need some ethics too.

:byesad_s:

What was I saying about customers needing to wise up?

Do Keynesian macroeconomic principles not pervade your thinking?

Aerosoft is both publisher AND developer. Aggregate demand is a key factor in what appears on the shelves. The virtual market is exactly the same. You simply don't even have the arithmetic right - look at the sum total of products available before making such an erroneous judgment, and read what has been said about the necessary sophistication levels. With no offence to the train simmers among us, trains don't operate with anything near the same level of development sophistication as even an AI aircraft for FSX, regardless they share a common ancestry. :angry:

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  • Aerosoft

Oh That's too cool. A topic where we can speak frankly and freely ?

The thing is Aerosoft gives the impression to leave deliberately and silently the flighsim market.. I say GIVE THE IMPPRESSION.

In the previews forum, there are no further news anymore and slowly but shurely, RoS and trains sim projects are taking the largest place.

OR, Is it just that Aerosoft dont want to communicate anyomore ? Is it just that is so easier to "drop" new stuff just like

that, throwing some eat to...

FS consumers might need to be educated but come on, we need some ethics too.

:byesad_s:

You can ALWAYS speak your mind here. We got very relaxed rules, seriously.

Just today we discussed the release plans for 2011 and I am happy to report that we have nearly the same amount of FS9 and FSX releases planned as last year. As there are always new projects popping up unexpected I am sure we will end up with more releases then in 2010. We are hiring new staff as we speak to get it all done (we are growing very fast at this moment).

But I see what you mean. I think the impression will get even larger in the next few months as we are gearing up to release more simulators and we find it hard to change the customers perspective about Aerosoft. The future Aerosoft will be a company for serious simulators. Of nearly any kind. As long as it needs a good sized manual we like to handle it. As I said, this does not indicate any decline of our interest in MSFS, we gladly let the world know that it is our bread an butter at this moment. But projects like Jet Thunder, that is getting pretty close to release, are very much what Aerosoft is in 2011. Just like new bus simulators etc.

I checked the preview forum and compared it to a state of 6 and 12 months ago. Twelve months ago we had less projects announced there, six months ago more. But the difference is not very large. So it got to be an impression, not a factual statement. It IS a good comment though and I'll discuss it with the staff involved. Thanks!

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Regarding the Airbus X...

................................................

Just my few words on this...

Hey,

hmm..this sounds to me that there isn't a plan to continue the AirbusX project to a more complex version. I am just asking because another Aerosoftler told us Aerosoft is currently working on such a version. Would be nice to get a Yes or No to have clearness.

Chris

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  • Aerosoft

Hey,

hmm..this sounds to me that there isn't a plan to continue the AirbusX project to a more complex version. I am just asking because another Aerosoftler told us Aerosoft is currently working on such a version. Would be nice to get a Yes or No to have clearness.

Chris

Yes.

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Hey thanks Mathijs.

As a matter of fact, I truly understand that some strategic changes are unavoidable. It is just that Aerosoft had a really know-how in scenery designing.

Even if we add up your freelances or sub-contractors, you will not make the same amount of FS9/X sceneries in 2011. You know that, i know that. Of course there are new uncertainties with MS Flight but.. but... there are so many sceneries to make (some good developers will take your place, FSDT will do it, Fly Tampa, Orbx will make it...) but Aerosoft is the european flag here, the european ship. Are profits becoming so low ( and piracy so high ) that Aerosoft must focus on others markets ? You designed most of german airports but there are so many more to do.around the world...

Help Obiwan Kenobee, we need you.

(and you Mister one penny philosopher... ):crylaugh_s:

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Regarding the Airbus X...

We know that there are some issues, but please note the difference between bugs and missing features.

The questions and bad critics that keep comming up are:

-CTD's

-Nosedive on AP disconnect

-Throttle inop for some users

-Missing SID / STAR and Holdings

-Missing proper VNAV system

...

I simply stopped monitoring the Airbus X forum, cause the same issues kept popping up over and over, though allready answered numerous times.

...

Finn

OK -> Constructive Criticism:

Yes, you are right, Finn, mentioning the above problems regarding the AirbusX, and yes there may be numerous posts about these problems although solutions or workarounds were posted already. But there are some more issues, let me give you two examples:

http://www.forum.aerosoft.com/index.php?showtopic=38157&view=findpost&p=284238

This issue is about the missing TCAS flying online. I only ask a simple question after three month waiting, because Mathijs himself posted that he will ask someone from Aerosoft but did not give the answer. What is so difficult about answering this question? Either, in this case, Scott (whoever this person is), is able to integrate TCAS Online or not. If not, no problem, but why do you not give this negative answer? Posting "No" will take maybe one or two minutes. And I (+ some others asking the same question) know where they are and can focus on other things.

http://www.forum.aerosoft.com/index.php?showtopic=41330&view=findpost&p=279123 (sorry in advance this one is from the german language forum)

The same here. I only ask where it is possible to eliminate maybe the "tank temperature" warning in some of the many xml-files. So I show you that I will solve this problem by myself, I only need a little help where to find the trigger for that message. Here too, I never get an answer.

I find it very sad that the AirbusX forum isn't looked in by one of the developers. Aerosoft says they are a professional company. In my humble opinion, a professional company should give support to a sold product also in long term. Although we all know, that there will be every time users who are not using the "search" function of the forum, or users who maybe write in a not so polite manner, but this is well known everywhere in business, it is not related to flight sim products. But as a company who decided to develop products by their own (as Aerosoft did with the AirbusX) and sell it, support should be given everytime and the forum looked up regularly to answer e.g. my above questions. And if you get nerved by some forum trolls, then ignore them, but don't stop giving support to serious customers. It is a general business rule, that good and quick support will end in a longterm satisfied relationship with your customers continuing to buy your products. As I can only speak for myself, I am more than disappointed about the lack of support (examples were given above) that I stopped buying products from Aerosoft for now and bought sceneries from another company instead with which I am more than satisfied. Barcelona, Stuttgart, AES credits, the upcoming CRJ, Iceland are the first on my list. And to avoid posts now saying how are you able to buy so much products (secretely accusing me of pirating), I run a well situated business giving me the opportunity to buy add-ons about 50-100€ a month for my hobby.

Regards

Henry

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