Want to know why it is hard to do good scenery projects for the USA?

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

Well, we need to have a few thousand images, but from the outside as from the aircraft side and guess what's been popping up all over airports in the US these days.

So the good folks that help us with images are now hooded terrorists, how stupid can things get? Recently we have been asked to remove something from a scenery that is 50 by 50 meters and 18 meters high. You can see it from THREE highways around the airport and it stands out like a sore thumb on Google Earth (even has a 3d object there) and MS 'how's it called'. You know what was in the building? Air conditioning for the main terminals. Now I know they love their aircon there but seriously...

[simon747 98]

Funny!! As a kid I used to phograph cabins on various planes at Houston IAH; I would just walk on the plane nobody would stop me! Things have changed I guess...no they are too crazy!!

[Designer Paule 24]

Well, we need to have a few thousand images, but from the outside as from the aircraft side and guess what's been popping up all over airports in the US these days.

So the good folks that help us with images are now hooded terrorists, how stupid can things get? Recently we have been asked to remove something from a scenery that is 50 by 50 meters and 18 meters high. You can see it from THREE highways around the airport and it stands out like a sore thumb on Google Earth (even has a 3d object there) and MS 'how's it called'. You know what was in the building? Air conditioning for the main terminals. Now I know they love their aircon there but seriously...

Havn't seen this one yet, oh well now I know I could be questioned if I went to our airport

being there is a major base here where I live.

Paul

[Chris_327 42]

Well, we need to have a few thousand images, but from the outside as from the aircraft side and guess what's been popping up all over airports in the US these days.

So the good folks that help us with images are now hooded terrorists, how stupid can things get? Recently we have been asked to remove something from a scenery that is 50 by 50 meters and 18 meters high. You can see it from THREE highways around the airport and it stands out like a sore thumb on Google Earth (even has a 3d object there) and MS 'how's it called'. ou know what was in the building? Air conditioning for the main terminals. Now I know they love their aircon there but seriously...

Maybe they played the last level of the second splinter cell game; releasing a killer virus into LAX via the air conditioning system...

[BPL 39]

Security here in the US has gone far beyond protecting us and into the realm of threatening our freedom. In many cases, people are told by the police that they can't just sit near an airport and watch aircraft take off and land. One of my dad's former coworkers was told by a police officer that he couldn't park his car under the approach path to KGSO and watch the aircraft while he ate his lunch. To be honest, I'm more afraid of losing my freedom in the name of "security," than I am of a terrorist attack.

[Chris_327 42]

One of my dad's former coworkers was told by a police officer that he couldn't park his car under the approach path to KGSO and watch the aircraft

I honestly find this a quite interesting subject, as I've never heard anything of this sort in the UK. There's an interesting interview I listened to a while ago that says some airports are completely worthless to try to visit in the US because of security. It makes for quite a good listen: http://www.airplaneg...ting-with-phil/

By the way, if any of you haven't heard of this podcast, check it out!

[Designer Paule 24]

<br />Security here in the US has gone far beyond protecting us and into the realm of threatening our freedom. In many cases, people are told by the police that they can't just sit near an airport and watch aircraft take off and land. One of my dad's former coworkers was told by a police officer that he couldn't park his car under the approach path to KGSO and watch the aircraft while he ate his lunch. To be honest, I'm more afraid of losing my freedom in the name of "security," than I am of a terrorist attack.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Then I sure won't try taking pictures at KFAY! lol

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[Hiflyer 129]

Its a sign of the times! Years ago, I would read about Israeli airport security and would wonder how that felt, to live in a society that had become that paranoid. Then, after 9-11, America began to close in on itself as well, and so many things that had once been open and almost care-free became closed-in security-fests.

I remember once upon a time in Times Square on New Years eve you could wander around as freely as you wanted without a care in the world. Now, you are stopped every other block and frisked, forced to show your hotel reservations before you can move from block to block, and the entire area is cordoned off so that you are penned, like cattle, unable to wander once you have been finally allowed in.

Not..... quite the same.

When I was a kid, you could never go into the park at night without an escort of adults because anything could happen to you if you were alone..... My grandfather told me about when he was young when you could wander to the park at any time of day or night without a care in the world, and it seemed like some sort of fantasy. I didn't even believe him.

Now, as I get older, it seems that the world my kids are growing up in is getting tighter and tighter with its restrictions, and its hard to see where it will end.

Maybe one day they will describe to their grandchildren a time when everyone did not wear bullet proof vests to go to the restaurant, and their grandchildren will not believe them!

[Designer Paule 24]

When I graduated from Aviation HS back in 71 we had a laminated wallet sized diploma with a picture in our school uniform on the other side. I wrote the chief pilot at Lufthansa in Germany at the time Werher Utter if I can get permission to fly jumpseat. Wrote back no problem if Capt approves told me on day of flight to go to dispatch. Went saw Capt showed letter and diploma flew jump seat to Germany out of JFK in a 707. As a child I was always up in the cockpit when flying to visits in Germany. That's what built my interests in aviation. Next up my disappointment after building a model of the Hansa Jet captains side panel and not being allowed in the Junior High Science fair for it being amodel. A my hand built model! So I decided to cut school after that and hung around with Jules Bergman and astronauts at ABC TV studios during the Gemini program.

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[strid 1]

People always ask me why I like to fly. One word, FREEDOM !!! Well sort of, lol...

Founding Fathers of Quotes..

James Madison

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."

"The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home"

"But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever."

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."

Thomas Jefferson

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people there is liberty"

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent"

"Experience hath shown, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."

"Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day."

George Washington

"If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is Force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism."

Benjamin Franklin

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

A lady asked Dr. Franklin Well Doctor what have we got a republic or a monarchy "A republic," replied the Doctor, "if you can keep it."

"A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved."

"It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins."

"It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority."

Thomas Paine

"That government is best which governs least."

"To say that any people are not fit for freedom, is to make poverty their choice"

"When men yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon."

"It is the duty of the Patriot to protect his country from its Government."

Patrick Henry

"Give me liberty or give me death"

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."

Ron Paul

"Don't steal, Government hates competition."

John Adams

"Democracy never last long. It soon wastes, exhaust and murders itself. There was never a democracy that did not commit suicide."

"Children should be educated and instructed in the principles of feedom."

"But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever."

[Snave 466]

Security here in the US has gone far beyond protecting us and into the realm of threatening our freedom. In many cases, people are told by the police that they can't just sit near an airport and watch aircraft take off and land. One of my dad's former coworkers was told by a police officer that he couldn't park his car under the approach path to KGSO and watch the aircraft while he ate his lunch. To be honest, I'm more afraid of losing my freedom in the name of "security," than I am of a terrorist attack.

If that is happening then consider this:

The terrorists have won.

The intention of terror is to create a climate of fear, to impede the honest citizens going about their daily lives, to disrupt the efficient operation of the country and to insinuate a level of perceived threat that has everyone regarding their neighbour with suspicion.

Given the umpteen billions of dollars that have been invested in the many New Name `security` organisations in the USA I'd say the terrorists have probably satisfied the criteria on ALL counts...

Time to find a new country.

[mopperle 4162]

And on top of that, they are now forcing visitors to pay an entrance fee of 14 USD

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

If that is happening then consider this:

The terrorists have won.

The intention of terror is to create a climate of fear, to impede the honest citizens going about their daily lives, to disrupt the efficient operation of the country and to insinuate a level of perceived threat that has everyone regarding their neighbour with suspicion.

Given the umpteen billions of dollars that have been invested in the many New Name `security` organisations in the USA I'd say the terrorists have probably satisfied the criteria on ALL counts...

Time to find a new country.

You know Snave, there are times I think you are right.

I got the same love / hate relationship with the US as so many Europeans have. It's the best country in the world to travel in. There is no country in the world where you find so many people willing to go out of their way to help a visitor. I am sure there are some but I have yet to meet a American I was not able to relate to on some level. US and Canadian customers are by far the best customers we got. They are almost always polite and willing to work to solve a problem. As long as you are open and honest with them, they will accept a lot.

As a country however, most Europeans got problems. We just do not understand the US (foreign) politics. It just makes no sense. The power play forced upon other countries is just not of this day and age where you can win a war with an army but can never concur an country like you could in the 1900's. And now I (personally) feel they use fear as a tactic to get things done. I seriously dislike traveling to the USA these day because I know it will take me 2 hours to pass customs. I am Dutch, live in France, have lived in a number of other countries and I want to lean more about US aviation. How more suspicious can you get. So I give my fingerprints, my iris scan, see they got my bank records and a print out of my credit card for the last year. "Mr. Kok that trip to Morocco, could you tell us some more about that?" My well thinking brains shouts out that it's none of their business I got family and very good friends there, my business brain tells me to say "Just a trip to the sun". The last time I was asked if I flown or took a car to go from Morocco to Turkey. When I explained the two countries are not even on the same continent I was asked to remain seated. Took another two hours. It is really like most US governement representatives simply do not have a clue about the rest of the world and default to suspicion.

Asking people to call the police when you see a person making a photograph of an aircraft is just plain stupid and serves no purpose. Making posters like the ones they put up that appeal to the lowest instinct of people is stupid.

[Designer Paule 24]

You know Snave, there are times I think you are right.

I got the same love / hate relationship with the US as so many Europeans have. It's the best country in the world to travel in. There is no country in the world where you find so many people willing to go out of their way to help a visitor. I am sure there are some but I have yet to meet a American I was not able to relate to on some level. US and Canadian customers are by far the best customers we got. They are almost always polite and willing to work to solve a problem. As long as you are open and honest with them, they will accept a lot.

As a country however, most Europeans got problems. We just do not understand the US (foreign) politics. It just makes no sense. The power play forced upon other countries is just not of this day and age where you can win a war with an army but can never concur an country like you could in the 1900's. And now I (personally) feel they use fear as a tactic to get things done. I seriously dislike traveling to the USA these day because I know it will take me 2 hours to pass customs. I am Dutch, live in France, have lived in a number of other countries and I want to lean more about US aviation. How more suspicious can you get. So I give my fingerprints, my iris scan, see they got my bank records and a print out of my credit card for the last year. "Mr. Kok that trip to Morocco, could you tell us some more about that?" My well thinking brains shouts out that it's none of their business I got family and very good friends there, my business brain tells me to say "Just a trip to the sun". The last time I was asked if I flown or took a car to go from Morocco to Turkey. When I explained the two countries are not even on the same continent I was asked to remain seated. Took another two hours. It is really like most US governement representatives simply do not have a clue about the rest of the world and default to suspicion.

Asking people to call the police when you see a person making a photograph of an aircraft is just plain stupid and serves no purpose. Making posters like the ones they put up that appeal to the lowest instinct of people is stupid.

Alot of the fun has been taken out of growing up and getting kids interested or for some of us old farts the hobby of aviation.

[newmanix 61]

Sadly, I fear it will only get worse.

Currently, I work in an office highrise just a bew blocks South of LAX. From time to time I take my SLR and go spotting outside the LAX fence. If I am not in one of the popular spotting areas, the motorcycle cops will almost always pull along side me and ask for ID. When I show them my Airline ID and LAX security clearance ID they leave me alone. But if I should not have those ID's on me, they take my drivers license and run it through the computer. Once clear, they go away. At the very least, as long as you are not breaking the law, you can continue. They can't really stop you from doing it as long as you are on public property as it is your constitutional right as an American to take pictures of public places. Thus people, shouldn't be afraid. And if the police show up, so what. It shouldn't in my opinion be the primary excuse not to make American airport sceneries. Taking pictures inside the airport is also acceptable as long as it is in the area or your company or airline. If I work for Emirates, I should not be taking pictures on the Delta ramp etc. You just have to really know the law and the rules and you will be okay. If you explain to the police about why you are spotting and have a business card they will respect that as well. After a while, they get used to you.

I was in London recently (City of London) taking pictures of the Swiss re Headquarters and about 5 security guys came out and told me to put the camera away. As I was on the buildings property, I stepped to the sidewalk where I kept taking pictures. They tried to stop me there as well but I know the law there. They couldnt touch me if I am not on their property. Some friends of mine have had similar issues in Manhattan.

Mathijs, about your ordeal. Sadly I see this all the time. Once a British passenger was held in customs "secondary" for 4 hours and deported because he was arrested back in 74 for having marjuana. He lied on the i94 saying he was never arrested and they deported him for lying. When people such as yourself come to this country either to visit or reside through the correct channels, customs and border protection make you go through the most unnecessary billshit. But if you climb the fence illegally comming here and break your leg on the US side, you get free medical care, food, and housing payed by my $1,000 a month taxes.

I would love to emigrate to Europe. Sadly, it's hardest for a American to immigrate elsewhere, but very easy for so many to immigrate here.

[Designer Paule 24]

Without getting to of topic think about the us border guards that shot the drug smuggler from Mexico crossing the border illegally in the butt and the attorney general had the guards put on trial and into jail. Might have to google it. Question is are we safer at our borders than we were 9 years ago. HE'LL NO!

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[BPL 39]

Thank you, strid, for the excellent quotations from our wise founding fathers. If only the average American of today could have a fraction of that wisdom, we would be in much better shape. Thank you, Mathijs, for your kind words about our people.

What amazes me is that so many are willing to forfeit their freedom in favor of security and government provision. So many believe that foreign terrorists are more to be feared than tyranny. So many believe that they can trust a politician. So many are totally unconcerned that our freedom could be lost, as if it were eternally guaranteed. So many are blind to the loss of freedom before their very eyes. So many scoff at those who don't take their government at face value. So many believe that they can trust what they hear on the evening news. So many would rather sit gazing blankly into a television than think. So many are completely ignorant of what is happening to this nation, and don't care to be enlightened.

If you want to see the direction this nation is headed, talk to the average American young person. (I'm a 17 year old American, so I can insult them.) I guarantee you that the qualities mentioned above will be most apparent in them, and they are the citizens and politicians of tomorrow. And to quote again the founding fathers:

"If a nation expects to be ignorant — and free — in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson

"A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved." - Benjamin Franklin

"It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins." - Benjamin Franklin

"It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority." - Benjamin Franklin

"When men yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon." - Thomas Paine

"Children should be educated and instructed in the principles of freedom." - John Adams

[Gaura Mohana 23]

I was born in the USA, and so was my dad... and the only thing i can say regarding America is.....

I'm so damn pleased i did'nt grow up there...

and i really hope I will never live in the USA (visits are fine )

With all these new "Security" rules were just losing all freedom..... Whats next?

dont get me started on india though.. (notice that I didnt capitalize the I? that was completely intentional)

India has 2 Halfs- The Spiritual Cultural india which is awesome

and The rest-  Which is the Worst Crap in the world...

'Nuff Said

[hartson 3]

Living in the US I understand your points of view, but there are some place in Europe that are not so camera friendly either. London a year or two back went through a whole clampdown on people using cameras taking photographs of 'security targets'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7351252.stm

I personally was asked a few questions by two wandering police officers as I took photos of the London Eye and the Houses of Parliament. Now, it's not as if there aren't already a few photos of those points of interest already (and about a zillion postcards). Having said that I didn't have any trouble on a recent trip back to London taking shots from the same spot!

One issue that is coming up, and has been mentioned is that a SLR camera seems to provoke all sorts of interest whereas camera phones don't. That frankly is a little strange. I've heard you even get the same issue when going into soccer grounds in the UK. A SLR will get you the threat of being ejected, whereas a blind eye is turned to camera phones.

Talking of secenry products for the US I've always thought it a shame that the smaller airports in the US don't get more attention. Although we're still short a few Mega-Airports a set of (say) California airports would make an interesting project; Monterey, Palm Springs, Burbank, Oakland, and Tahoe just as an example.

And it would give you Europeans somewhere to fly in nice 'real' weather in the winter....

Getting back to the security issues at least my local airport (White Plains/KHPN) still has an observation deck. How I miss from my childhood the Queens Building at Heathrow Airport and the weekend trips there! Thought, is White Plains an interesting subject? Close enough to NYC but far enough away to be frame rate friendly, airline traffic jet and prop, more business jets than you can throw a large size stick at together with a local hub of GA?

[Hiflyer 129]

In some ways, now that the subject has been raised, I am almost surprised that things are not even more restrictive. I know that recently I and the kids were approached by the security of a nearby Mall for taking photographs on Mall property, which is apparently not allowed. We were outside in the parking lot taking panorama views of the surrounding countryside, since the Mall is on top of the highest hill in the area, with absolutely beautiful views.

It boggles the mind how they intend to control this when hundreds of people gather there (as they often do) to watch and take pictures of the local fireworks displays, or how they can control tourists who take pictures from the hotels adjoining and essentially sharing the grounds.

If a lowly Mall is that restrictive, I am almost surprised that you are not swooped down on by the freaking CIA for taking pictures of airplanes on airport property. (And maybe even not on airport property)

The pendulum has apparently swung from the assumption of harmlessness, to the suspicion of evil intent with no pit stop at common sense or practicality along the way.

[bionicCrab 7]

Nah americans haven't lost their freedoms at all. What they had before was a pure luxury, no need for security at all. Now that they have it, anything will seem like tyranny.

You ever seen those American movies and even TV shows where people meet you at the gate itself, how many countries had that before 9/11?

[Hiflyer 129]

Nah americans haven't lost their freedoms at all. What they had before was a pure luxury, no need for security at all. Now that they have it, anything will seem like tyranny.

You ever seen those American movies and even TV shows where people meet you at the gate itself, how many countries had that before 9/11?

Hmmmmmmmm.........

There is an old joke I remember: An American says to a Russian: "In the United States we have complete freedom of speech. I can even call the President of the United States an asshole to his face if I wanted to."

The Russian replies: "We also have complete freedom of speech, and I too can call the President of the United States an asshole!"

http://news.national...email-to-obama/

Its easy for governments to create restrictions, but nearly impossible to reverse those restrictions, even the most egregiously silly ones.

[Matjam 0]

I have a bit of a different perspective living near KEWR and commuting every day through the tunnels and riding the trains and subways. I was pushing my daughter in a stroller through Times Square on May 1st when a terrorist tried to set off a bomb. It was discovered by an attentive member of the public and handled by attentive police. Contrary to what many people think, that bomb could have caused great loss of life including that of me and my family.

Police have the right to ask questions of people doing unusual things in public places. Anyone who thinks this has led to some kind of "police state" is just showing their total ignorance of what it is like to live in a real police state. My freedom faces a much greater threat from terrorist killers than it does from the officials trying to protect us.

Not to change the subject, but I think the real tragedy for us who love aviation is how general aviation has become thoroughly unaffordable thanks largely to skyrocketing liability insurance costs. Excessive security has contributed to this as well, such as putting the whole DC area off-limits to GA. The movie One Six Right documents this problem in addition to being a beautiful film. A generation ago, a middle-class person could afford to rent or buy a single-engine aircraft. This is no longer true.

[BPL 39]

I have a bit of a different perspective living near KEWR and commuting every day through the tunnels and riding the trains and subways. I was pushing my daughter in a stroller through Times Square on May 1st when a terrorist tried to set off a bomb. It was discovered by an attentive member of the public and handled by attentive police. Contrary to what many people think, that bomb could have caused great loss of life including that of me and my family.

Police have the right to ask questions of people doing unusual things in public places. Anyone who thinks this has led to some kind of "police state" is just showing their total ignorance of what it is like to live in a real police state. My freedom faces a much greater threat from terrorist killers than it does from the officials trying to protect us.

I certainly understand and respect your views. I, of course, have no first-hand experience with living in a police state, but I am not totally ignorant of what it is like. I am not saying that we currently live in a police state, nor do I believe that security is bad. Without authority, we would live in a state of anarchy, which is just as bad as tyranny. I do, however, believe that the government is using terrorism as an excuse for excessive security and, therefore, control, for which government has an insatiable apatite. I'm not saying that we live in a police state; I'm saying that we will if we let our guard down. What frightens me is that people are unafraid of losing their freedom to big government. We should keep just as watchful an eye on authority as on terrorism. I fear losing my life to a terrorist; I fear losing my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness to the government. If we lose our freedom, it will happen so slowly that it will be almost imperceptible. That's why I want people to be informed and on their guard. To place complete trust in government would be naive. I don't fear officials that are trying to protect us. But in many nations around the world, officials are not trying to protect, but to control their people. This may not be the case here, but will it be in the future? That's why we should be concerned. There is absolutely no reason that this couldn't happen here. Unfortunately, many Americans believe this to be an impossibility.

A police officer has the right to question a suspicious person in a public place, but he has no right to tell someone who has committed no crime that he cannot be in a certain public place.

Perhaps it is hard for us to relate to each other because of where we live. I live in a city of just over 50,000 people in the South; you live in a gigantic metropolis in the North. Terrorism is something we small-town Southerners see on the news, not something we fear when walking down the street. Therefore I, as one who has no first-hand experience with terrorism, greatly respect your concern.

"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."

"Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or imagined, from abroad."

"The means of defence against foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home."

-James Madison

That is what I fear.

[bionicCrab 7]

Are you sure there isn't an actual war that was begun by the U.S government, and that targeted actual US citizens, or more specifically the urban lower class. That's what makes you a police state, your own actions, not the actions of 19 terrorists.