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While I don't really need SID/STARS to fly (I can read the charts thanks) What I really want in the Bus is a FLEX takeoff option. :wub: (i.e. Built in performance tables) Unlike SID/STARS a majority real world takeoffs on a dry runway involves some kind of reduced trust.

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While I don't really need SID/STARS to fly (I can read the charts thanks) What I really want in the Bus is a FLEX takeoff option. :wub: (i.e. Built in performance tables) Unlike SID/STARS a majority real world takeoffs on a dry runway involves some kind of reduced trust.

...then you will be happy! FLEX-takeoff is implemented...

Timo

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Actually aircraft which are non-RNAV when it comes to departure and arrival, are handled in a particular way and, being honest, would represent more of a burden than a relief.

Well, that's why I don't dare to fly online right now nor in the future and that's why so many people don't dare either... I simply am scared off by the hardcore simmers... I am sure there are a lot of friendly people online who won't mind helping out newbies, but overall I always get the idea you need to be a fanatic hardcore simmer who sleeps with charts under his pillow to even THINK about flying online...

I am more of a Airbus X kind of guy, I guess... :P

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Well, that's why I don't dare to fly online right now nor in the future and that's why so many people don't dare either... I simply am scared off by the hardcore simmers... I am sure there are a lot of friendly people online who won't mind helping out newbies, but overall I always get the idea you need to be a fanatic hardcore simmer who sleeps with charts under his pillow to even THINK about flying online...

I am more of a Airbus X kind of guy, I guess... :P

VATSIM and IVAO are learning environments, and I am sure/experienced myself that usually you will always be helped out if you indicate that it is necessary to do so (I certainly did when I was controlling virtually).

So of course, you will be given vectors if necessary, you can just "orbit left" instead of doing a hold...there are many ways to support a newbies.

But what shouldn't be forgotten is that because it is a learning environment, you should also be willing to learn, and eventually use things like charts/procedures. Also because - something that seems to be forgotten easily - the controllers are also doing this as a hobby, for their enjoyment. And I can assure you a large event with a lot of traffic will be less enjoyable for controllers if the majority of participating pilots have to be taken by the hand with bespoke vectors - just as even one aircraft unable to follow procedures can be irritating in real life.

You don't need to know SIDs and STARs when entering these communities, but if you understand other pilots and controllers as fellow simmers who also want to enjoy this - and I think you should - you might quickly notice that being able to use these things can and will make it easier (and more fun) for many. I did, and thus took the time to learn these procedures, instead of demanding vectors forever.

So, an airplane that, by design, is unable to efficiently and flexibly follow procedures as they are used in real life - and simulated at VATSIM/IVAO - can of course be used for online flying. But, in the end, when one wishes to further his knowledge and ability in this learning environment, IMHO it cannot be "great" for that.

Regards,

Robert

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so if your are a real world pilot please tell me how many times did you see the turbines rotating in the wind while you were seated on the pilots seat or to say it in aerosoft terms: focused on the pilots seat? and then tell me how many times did you see the sid and stars page on the fmc, while you were sitting there, even if you did not use it.

Every time I do the walk around... (May vary) Listen my friend, I am not here to argue with you. If you think commercial aviation revolves around sids or stars, then good for you. I just commented on your statement that it is realistic. I disagree on that. Reasons already stated by SimPilot767. We work in a dynamic environment which asks for some flexibility. At my homebase ATC will cut me some slack and get me in fast. Being familiar with the airport helps too (We can fly the approach blind) And I'll guarantee you, if you need a preprogrammed Stars to get the pattern, you won't make it in a real simulator.... realistic flying? The FO would enter data, if necessary, but usually we'll fly and adjust without the fmc, and on approach one looks in, one looks out. And, again, for real flying take out a Cessna or similar. Not an airliner. It's like comparing an English sports car with a bus. (sorry for the Italian, German sports car fans, I like the british classics)

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No need to be rude.

I did not blame Aerosoft for not including SIDs and STARs, only that it is advertised as being (I quote) "ideally suited for online flying" and that's simply not true. It is not more suited than the default Airbus and that is not ideally suited at all.

As for online flying itself, there is nothing magical to it and newbies are more than welcome. Somehow the idea that SIDs and STARs are a complex feature has been spread and that's not the case either. Again, as the name says it, it's Standard. The decision of Aerosoft not to include them and labelling them as complex can be misleading. Actually it is much simpler to choose a runway and then the acording SID (3 clicks) than putting the waypoints one by one into the FPLN page.

If I read correctly the Aerosoft airbus doesn't have shared cockpit right? otherwise I'd be more then happy to fly an approach with you online without using Stars to show you it's not that big deal. And if you are a hardcore simmer, come prepared! If you studied the layout and workings of charts, you'd be able to fly any stars procedure without even looking at the FMC. The comments about online flying made me curious, btw, so I am going to try out this bus on Vatsim, see if I can kiss the runway. Never flew online before, so that would be a nice experience.

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read what i asked...i said while you are sitting on the pilots seat...no walk around. focused on the pilot seat.

Ok, you are right... When I am upfront I divide my attention between the sids, stars page and the wingflex.

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And if you are a hardcore simmer, come prepared! If you studied the layout and workings of charts, you'd be able to fly any stars procedure without even looking at the FMC.

How would you fly an RNAV Transition without lookin at the FMS? What do you do when ATC clears you for a different transition than the one expected? Just wondering, because that's what is done at my 'homebase' (Munich approach) every day. :)

btw, may I ask what your homebase is?

Regards

Robert

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Ok, you are right... When I am upfront I divide my attention between the sids, stars page and the wingflex.

I make out from your posts that you are a Bus driver for some UK company. I am sure that you have flown to PMI on many occasions. So did I. In more than 10 years of frequent visits there I have seen STAR flown few times and they were done only when pilot was unable to meet ATC requirement for quick line up.

Regarding SIDs. Same location. 99% euro flights we get direct to VOR - can't remember the name (MHN I guess) straight after contacting departure. Does not matter whit RWY you get off. If it's direction south you get turn left and direct to... etc.

PMI is one of the busiest airports during summer. Of course STARS have to be set up - just in case - but I can tell that this is just waste of time. That's why PNF does it as the right seat gets proper training :)

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How would you fly an RNAV Transition without lookin at the FMS? What do you do when ATC clears you for a different transition than the one expected? Just wondering, because that's what is done at my 'homebase' (Munich approach) every day. :)

btw, may I ask what your homebase is?

Regards

Robert

Most of the crews knows the data by heart. Thats the job you know. Why? simple, what you do if system fails? Everyone has to be prepared before the flight, other wise if things end up good, the first question will be about pre flight briefing. Even VATSIM pilots know this :)

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Well after visiting the Forum again thinking that they would be some more exciting information on the Bus so close to it's release, the battle of words continue. It's suppose to be a hobby and pastime, everybody has a different view on how FSX should be perceived but above all else it's all down to having fun or am I missing something? The day I get paid to fly virtual planes in the virtual world of FSX then thats the day I'll take it seriously, and everybody should take a breather, step back and wait for the Bus to be released and then see what the simming world makes of it (and we all know the answer to that).  

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i get more and more the feeling that real pilots can´t read...or they can read but can´t understand simple sentences...that could explain to me some aircraft crashes...

That is why STARS and SIDs are not a must - since they can not be read.

Get off, summer holidays are about to get over so either buy the product or not.

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i get more and more the feeling that real pilots can´t read...or they can read but can´t understand simple sentences...that could explain to me some aircraft crashes...

Well after that statement I think you have over stepped the line......

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Most of the crews knows the data by heart.

No they don't. Most do at their homebase, yes, but the rest...I see enough deviations from

procedures to not believe that. And how could they - flying to four or five different airports a day.

And even those who do - you can't follow an rnav transition re-clearance without looking at the FMS. And being able to quickly select a procedure might just help there, avoiding that nagging question from the controller "are you turning yet?". :)

Also, folks at PMI might have a certain way of controlling their traffic, which works best for them. But I assure you life at LHR, FRA, MUC or AMS is quite different.

Regards,

Robert

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SIDS and STARS... sigh... I would like to know from some real life pilots how often they actually fly a (complete) STAR. Hardly ever, I think. And this goes for ALL the functions the 'hardcore simmers' are begging for all the time. This Airbus X will let you experience everything a real life Airbus pilot does and encounters in real life. If there will ever be an advanced version, I wonder how much of the added functions will actually be used in real life! Hardly ever.

This Airbus will give me the experience a real life pilot has and that's all I need. I don't need tons of failures which never or hardly ever happen in real life. I don't need the possibility to manually operate all systems when this never or hardly ever is done in real life. I don't need STARS which are hardly ever flown in real life.

I think 'hardcore simmers' lost track of what real life flying is about nowadays: getting the passengers safe from A to B with as little interference from pilots as possible. B) The Airbus isn't made for diehards who love to push as much buttons as possible and who like to keep manual control of everything. That's totally unrealistic. And so this Airbux X will give us everything we need to simulate a REALISTIC flight, as they are done in real life everyday. Isn't that what we all want...? If you want to do it the Hollywood way, wait for the advanced version. :P

(I am exaggerating, obviously, so don't take everything too seriously, but I hope you do get my point!)

SID/STAR in simulator (mostly). In real flight we get ATC vector (mostly). Again it depends on a lot of factors. Departure, weather, schedule, slot and so on. I am not sure I answered the question. (And yes we do still use paper maps guys)

Regards

D

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How would you fly an RNAV Transition without lookin at the FMS? What do you do when ATC clears you for a different transition than the one expected? Just wondering, because that's what is done at my 'homebase' (Munich approach) every day. :)

btw, may I ask what your homebase is?

Regards

Robert

So you're telling me you're a pilot and you, hypothetically, couldn't fly a RNAV transition using GPS? I can. I'd be happy to fly it on vatsim. And if they clear me for a different transition than the expected? I'd use the 'direct to' feature. Most transitions can be flown using the GPS or VOR/DME or a combination of both for lateral guidance. The verticle constraints you control. I fly from LHR, and as it happens I fly to yours day after tomorrow.

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i get more and more the feeling that real pilots can´t read...or they can read but can´t understand simple sentences...that could explain to me some aircraft crashes...

No hard feelings my friend, but I'll be the wise one and end this discussion here and now. I do hope you will enjoy this hobby for what it is FUN, and let us handle the real flying so you get where you wanted to go, SAFE. The crashes comment disappoints me a bit, but it shows that you are fortunate enough never to have been involved in one (aviation or otherwise) I sincerely hope it stays that way for you, and yours.

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SID/STAR in simulator (mostly). In real flight we get ATC vector (mostly). Again it depends on a lot of factors. Departure, weather, schedule, slot and so on. I am not sure I answered the question. (And yes we do still use paper maps guys)

Regards

D

Exactly. And thank God for paper...It will get me wherever I want to go. (even if anything else fails)

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Does anybody know the initial rate of climb on airbus a320 is after rotation and through 10,0000 feet or so? I tried flying the default a321 and found it climbed way too much. Is 3000-4000 fpm normal first and then maybe 2500 fpm. I have no idea and new to this apologies if it's a stupid question.

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Does anybody know the initial rate of climb on airbus a320 is after rotation and through 10,0000 feet or so? I tried flying the default a321 and found it climbed way too much. Is 3000-4000 fpm normal first and then maybe 2500 fpm. I have no idea and new to this apologies if it's a stupid question.

I think I read somewhere in one of Mathijs' posts that the default airbus was way overpowered so I doubt very much whether the Aerosoft bus will suffer from this problem.

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Just curious, the manual speaks of mouse usage, left click, right click etc...but doesn't discuss how to apply the "push" button that's necessary on the FCU. Hoping it's not the middle mouse button, as EZCA camera controls that for it's pan view feature. What's working out for the beta testers on this?

Curt

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So you're telling me you're a pilot and you, hypothetically, couldn't fly a RNAV transition using GPS? I can. I'd be happy to fly it on vatsim. And if they clear me for a different transition than the expected? I'd use the 'direct to' feature. Most transitions can be flown using the GPS or VOR/DME or a combination of both for lateral guidance. The verticle constraints you control. I fly from LHR, and as it happens I fly to yours day after tomorrow.

Okay, first to clarify, I am talking about real life procedures here. In that context, what are you talking about when you say"GPS"? Since that's just one of the systems the FMS uses for navigation reference, you still have to look at and use the FMS here.

Now, RNAv transitions are completely disconnected from any VOR/DME, they are pure coordinates. So you can't use any of that for lateral guidance, regardless how well prepared you come. And GPS? Once again, your head is down there with the FMS for that. That one's "direct-to feature will take care of the first waypoint, yes. Now, do you prefer to manually input the other 11? Or simply being able to select something like ROKIL26? Either way, once again you can't do either without using the FMS. Or can you?

I'm not a pilot, I am an air traffic controller. We have to learn how our procedures are flown, and I have flown into "my" airport on the flightdeck of a CRJ and an A320. They used the FMS, as I had expected, but I am now curious about your whizz-bang method allowing you to leave it aside, just as Aerosoft left it aside in their A320 ( which I'm still going to buy btw).

Regards,

Robert

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I've followed this discussion for quite some time now, and thought I'd give my thoughts on the matter. What you are saying is simply not true.

Stedders, it is true. I'm a 737 FO for a major European-based airline. I know what I'm talking about. When was the last time you flew a SID out of Amsterdam? They're all Rnav, you fly the whole lateral track. Yesterday out of Antalya we flew the entire lateral track of the KUMRU1M. Don't tell me it's not true, because I did it just yesterday!

I fly the a320, and I hardly ever fly a star procedure direct from the FMC. Simply because ATC will not let us. The same for autoland, we never use it,under normal circumstances, company policy.

It'd be interesting to know where you fly, because it's certainly not Europe. Are you saying you never program a SID or STAR into your FMC? I'm not aware of any company that has that SOP. Obviously some airfields don't have SIDs or STARs, but when they do and it's in your flightplan, I'd be incredibly surprised if it was your "company policy" (another phrase that makes me disbelieve what you say) to not program your FMC with your filed flightplan. That's a disaster waiting to happen. Also, try flying into airfields without radar coverage - ATC can't vector you then! As for autoland, under normal circumstances it's not used, no, because the ILS is rarely safeguarded outside of LVPs at busier airfields, however, when LVPs exist then autolands have to be performed, that's our company policy.

If this is the kind of general misunderstanding guiding the development of this project and people who are trying to claim that the experiences of commercial pilots with thousands of hours are "simply not true" then I wish the Aerosoft Airbus the best of luck, it's going to need it to not turn into another Airsimmer disappointment. I'll wait for FSlabs to release their much more realistic version, thanks very much.

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Stedders, it is true. I'm a 737 FO for a major European-based airline. I know what I'm talking about. When was the last time you flew a SID out of Amsterdam? They're all Rnav, you fly the whole lateral track. Yesterday out of Antalya we flew the entire lateral track of the KUMRU1M. Don't tell me it's not true, because I did it just yesterday!

It'd be interesting to know where you fly, because it's certainly not Europe. Are you saying you never program a SID or STAR into your FMC? I'm not aware of any company that has that SOP. Obviously some airfields don't have SIDs or STARs, but when they do and it's in your flightplan, I'd be incredibly surprised if it was your "company policy" (another phrase that makes me disbelieve what you say) to not program your FMC with your filed flightplan. That's a disaster waiting to happen. Also, try flying into airfields without radar coverage - ATC can't vector you then! As for autoland, under normal circumstances it's not used, no, because the ILS is rarely safeguarded outside of LVPs at busier airfields, however, when LVPs exist then autolands have to be performed, that's our company policy.

If this is the kind of general misunderstanding guiding the development of this project and people who are trying to claim that the experiences of commercial pilots with thousands of hours are "simply not true" then I wish the Aerosoft Airbus the best of luck, it's going to need it to not turn into another Airsimmer disappointment. I'll wait for FSlabs to release their much more realistic version, thanks very much.

Well luckily it won't be full of useless functionality like air simmers and that will just make it buggy. This airbus will be a great and much awaited add-on for me and generally too basic for a real first officer of your level. It's all just a fun game anyhow.

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