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Mathijs Kok

I do not like this idea

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There will be many who think (know) that an idea as this will never work. Nobody will buy a fictive airport (though I beg to differ as Emma Field remains one of the best selling scenery products ever), who wants to pay real money for a plot on an fictive airpark etc etc etc... Now these people are entitled to their opinion and I would even like to know why they feel that way, never to old to learn right?

But I would like to keep those comments out of the other messages and combined here so we keep the momentum going on this project. This is vital for this project in the first few weeks. So please post those comments here or do not be angry we move them here. We value you opinion and most certainly will read and comment on them.

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I'll post here voluntarily:

"It'll never work because...

...there are several properties in the underrun too close to the runway threshhold. You might like to move those two spur roads / taxiways south a bit? Especially if AF has ILS. All those aircraft operator/owners moving around in the approach area might upset the beacons...

OK - it's fictional and there are many RW airports with houses and road traffic closer to the runways, but just thinking "environmentally" if a new airport is built, one should consider saftey and build in a way to keep the approaches free and safe.

(If there is a position as "Devils Advocate" then I volunteer for this... :D )

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Well I would say the the Owners Association will need to lobby strongly with the guys who will set up the routing to use 09 as much as possible!

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Well, what should I say about this project?

I myself started this hobby, because it's called simulation. In my native german language, 'to simulate' means 'to make things after...'.

Ok, at about 1996 I wanted to be a pilot. The (former) private pilot license (PPL) would have cost me about 15TDM (~7500€). Because I didn't own so much money, I decided to 'simulate', bought me a computer and a copy of FS98, and from that day, I could be a F/O and later on a captain of an jetliner. That's my story.

'Andras Field' is fictive, so in my opinion it's no simulation (in the words meaning).

I would have liked more that you deal more with simulating real aviation. There are a lot of airfields which suffer realisation or error correction for Microsoft Flightsimulator X.

Aerosoft decided different and I do not think, that this will be a flop.

I am an scientific educated 'elder statesman', who comes out of 'prehistoric times' where engineers and scientists were built out of knowledge and experience. Our houses, towers and bridges still stand and will last to stand!

Today it's 'service time'! I think, there are many reasons why people around the globe are afraid of reality and search the 'fiction'.

My conclusion: Gratulation to Aerosoft's Aviatic 'Second Life'.

Good luck but I'm not with you.

Regards

P.S.: and btw. I personally really don't like that people 'built' a fictive civil airfield/airparc on behalf of a fictive german military place which never has existed in Bavaria. 'Machmaning Fliegerhorst' has never existed which is not obvious in your postings. You can google about this.

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I may not buy "land" to build on and probably won't fly in online mode, but it's a nice airport. Worth the $25 I paid. :)

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@ HansW

I disagree with you.

You wrote, you won´t call it simulation because Andras Field is fictive.

But that is exactly what simulations do!

Scientists try to forecast the followup of a nuclear explosion.

The Bomb is fictive, not build in reality.

Other scientists try to simulate the Big Bang, this theorie might be the best available, but it is still a fictive scenario.

How about the weatherforecast ?

They try to compute where we have the next thunderstorm.

This TS might never appear in reality, god knows how often they fail :mad:

It is not a `make things after´... it is a `make things before`.

So hence Andras Field is fictive, a Airfield in general it is not. So you can simulate how an Airfield like AF might work.

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Hi FlyTweety,

this is not the place to start a discussion about what is a simulation or not.

Only one last statement to this: you can not predict the future, if you have no proven model of the past!

If you like we should discuss this via PMs and give the community the result later on in a different thread?

Regards

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Well, what should I say about this project?

I myself started this hobby, because it's called simulation. In my native german language, 'to simulate' means 'to make things after...'.

Ok, at about 1996 I wanted to be a pilot. The (former) private pilot license (PPL) would have cost me about 15TDM (~7500€). Because I didn't own so much money, I decided to 'simulate', bought me a computer and a copy of FS98, and from that day, I could be a F/O and later on a captain of an jetliner. That's my story.

'Andras Field' is fictive, so in my opinion it's no simulation (in the words meaning).

I would have liked more that you deal more with simulating real aviation. There are a lot of airfields which suffer realisation or error correction for Microsoft Flightsimulator X.

Aerosoft decided different and I do not think, that this will be a flop.

I am an scientific educated 'elder statesman', who comes out of 'prehistoric times' where engineers and scientists were built out of knowledge and experience. Our houses, towers and bridges still stand and will last to stand!

Today it's 'service time'! I think, there are many reasons why people around the globe are afraid of reality and search the 'fiction'.

My conclusion: Gratulation to Aerosoft's Aviatic 'Second Life'.

Good luck but I'm not with you.

Regards

P.S.: and btw. I personally really don't like that people 'built' a fictive civil airfield/airparc on behalf of a fictive german military place which never has existed in Bavaria. 'Machmaning Fliegerhorst' has never existed which is not obvious in your postings. You can google about this.

Okay, good points and all very valid. Yet, when we use FSX we all 'play that we are pilot' right? Nothing bad about that, heck we make our living from people who do so, we are the last to complain. But realism is a very big word that I personally try to avoid as much as possible for FS products. Even the best scenery is at best a faint representation of the real thing. All designers take huge liberty with sizes and placement of object. We got to, you can not afford to buy products that be very realistic and most certainly there is not hardware that could run it. In our mind it is not such a big leap to something that is not modeled after something that does not exist. Put it this way, next time you take-off in the PMDG 747 (or any other aircraft) look to your left and see the empty seat next to you. Customers complain when the color of something should be 255,219,004 and not the 255,219.006 we used but the whole missing crew member is accepted without any comment. Realism is a very relative term for flight simulation! And we have released more 'realistic' scenery then any other addon company so I think we got that one covered as well!

I do not understand how to place your comment on the fact we given our fake airport and fake history. I thought it was more or less obvious the history is just as make believe as the airport (the text starts with: "Andras Field was opened in 1943 as Machmaning Fliegerhorst" after all. I would be glad to add the text the history is also fake, but I feel kind of funny to lay it on that thick, if you understand what I mean. But as we always say. Every product we make is only interesting for 15% of the flightsimmers. This will be no exception in the negative sense, initial reactions and sales are very impressive. We already ran out of commercial plots so also the people who make their living from FS addons see the fun in this.

If somebody would make a fake Schiphol or Frankfurt I would not use it, though. Nobody would buy that, and a few people per minute are now buying this one.

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But realism is a very big word that I personally try to avoid as much as possible for FS products.

Mathijs is quite right in that "realism" in sims is quite nebulous a term. One of the most "realistic" simulation experiences I have had was with the wonderful Emma Field and attending the flying events there, yet the airfield was totally fictitious. However, the ambience of the airfield, the modelling of the buildings complete with sound effects and meeting pilot friends there online made it the most realistic part of my FS2004 world.

That is very much what appeals to me with Andras Field, meeting people online and flying together in a shared environment to be enjoyed, or just flying offline and having somewhere to call "home" from which to set off on adventures across the globe.

all the best

Jane

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Hmm,

I thought this thread is called 'I do not like this idea '.

Regards

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Hmm,

I thought this thread is called 'I do not like this idea '.

Regards

Lol.

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P.S.: and btw. I personally really don't like that people 'built' a fictive civil airfield/airparc on behalf of a fictive german military place which never has existed in Bavaria. 'Machmaning Fliegerhorst' has never existed which is not obvious in your postings. You can google about this.

Hello Hans,

I understand all the points you're saying, just felt the need to comment on this one. I think to fully appreciate Andras field, and more the things that happen around it, you need to accept a bit of role-playing. It's not the airfield, but the concept around it as a test case for what might be a whole new side of virtual aviation, and like cars benefit from Formula one technique, so might the sim world from techniques tested and used in this project.

This is in no way intended to contradict you or disagree, just shining a light on the other side of Andras Field

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Felt the need to add a bit more.

It has been my personal believe many people are taking this hobby too serious. Everybody who uses FS is role playing, we pretend to be pilots. Nothing wrong with that as role playing is the base for almost anything we do as a hobby. But I am not the kind of person who has seatbelts on my office chair. I don't call my wife in the intercom to bring me coffee. I got no problems with using the pause option. What makes me enjoy flightsimming most is easy explained in to things:

  • The people (customers, friends etc)
  • The way you ever expand your skills and knowledge. You can complete a shooter game but you can never complete FS.

Now we got previous products that we created and promoted that had a 'light touch'. Take for example one of the best selling scenery products Lukla. We promoted that with 'your first landing will not succeed' as a killer airport. Customers picked up on that very fast and started to land every kind of aircraft there, just to see if it could be done. Is that realism? Well yeah, the sim is okay, the aircraft are okay7, the scenery works. Did a 737 ever land on Lukla? No. Could it? Possibly yes, it would never get off again. But thousands of our customers tried it. Because it is fun. I did it, I liked it.

I also like to land the PMDG747 in crosswind and a 150 feet ceiling. And I even mutter 'please remain seated' etc etc for the none existing passengers.

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Realism........

Exactly what is the definition of "realism" in a Simulation?

If we mean to copy reality to the very last detail possible with the tools at hand, then FSX still comes nowhere close, as there are literally thousands of real-world affects/effects that are either "fudged" or ignored completely.

I would suggest that instead, there are various levels of acceptable verisimilitude, and that each of us has to decide the level that they are comfortable with. In Aerosofts case, they have to take into account the demonstrated tastes of the larger percentage of their customers, and it seems that they are of the belief that there is a market for this product large enough to justify the time and effort necessary to construct it.

The creation of this sub-forum shows their commitment to soliciting the opinions of the potential customers, but as an additional aid I would suggest that as well as explaining why one does not like the idea of this product, interested parties might also provide suggestions as to what in particular they believe might be changed to make the product better/more attractive.

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Could the larger portion of this thread be moved to another thread - something called "Philosophic thoughts on Flight simming" or something.

I think its a very very good discussion, but I agree with HansW that the thread is called "I dont like this because...." and so all this good stuff dosent belong here - BUT the discussion should be continued.

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Felt the need to add a bit more.

It has been my personal believe many people are taking this hobby too serious. Everybody who uses FS is role playing, we pretend to be pilots. Nothing wrong with that as role playing is the base for almost anything we do as a hobby. But I am not the kind of person who has seatbelts on my office chair. I don't call my wife in the intercom to bring me coffee. I got no problems with using the pause option. What makes me enjoy flightsimming most is easy explained in to things:

  • The people (customers, friends etc)
  • The way you ever expand your skills and knowledge. You can complete a shooter game but you can never complete FS.

Now we got previous products that we created and promoted that had a 'light touch'. Take for example one of the best selling scenery products Lukla. We promoted that with 'your first landing will not succeed' as a killer airport. Customers picked up on that very fast and started to land every kind of aircraft there, just to see if it could be done. Is that realism? Well yeah, the sim is okay, the aircraft are okay7, the scenery works. Did a 737 ever land on Lukla? No. Could it? Possibly yes, it would never get off again. But thousands of our customers tried it. Because it is fun. I did it, I liked it.

I also like to land the PMDG747 in crosswind and a 150 feet ceiling. And I even mutter 'please remain seated' etc etc for the none existing passengers.

I think Adras field will add to the role playing element for me, it has no preconceptions of a real airport, it can be how i want it to be.

We need German Airfields part 11 to give us some local airfield to fly to and from Adras. :)

Stu

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I had fly around AF a bit last few days and i have no problem to PAY for a beatiful made "fictive" airport in FSX. Why ? I see it more like a virtual "playground" for me as virtual pilots like me to fly in FSX and spendt few houres to just fly and enjoy the surroundings.

I had spendt a LOT of money to buy Aerosoft scenery and planes and i see AF just as a "extra" good scenery to my professionel made collection of airports.

Last day, i took a flight with default FSX Ultraligt and R22 helicopter to Innsbruch, Austrian ( spelled wrong .-). No map no GPS, just fly south yo button at lake, follow small river to right a bit, when your see a railroad after few min of flight, follow it to to left, it will take your close to long vally when your find Innsbruch. That would be impossibel in old FS2000 days, to know terrain like your "pocket".

This fictional AF airport, is very good to test new aircraft too.

Most important for me would be the "community" around AF. Technolygy dont stop here, in like 10 years, we can walk around with a avartar in AF and vist homes inside to see if friend home ( online) then go to house hangar and take a flight togehter to like Innsbruch, where friend deside to stay and walk around a bit in city and watch Inncbruch 2020 scenery from Aerosoft. I fly on to see new the new Munich 2020 scenery, and pick friend up 1 houre later in Innsbruch and we fly back to AF 2020 and chat about, how beatiful new Aerosoft 2020 scenery is, compare with old year 2010.

We arrive in dusk to Andras Field, and take few turns over the large AF Airpark, to see new houses. Easy to see who got money or not, big houses with helipads on top and large garden with walls around and big gate. After landing and taxi to house in airpark, we go to his place and watch latest videon of Aerosoft 2020 scenery, on the large screen in livingroom.

My friend tells me, he will tomorrow buy the new Discus X 2020 version 27.20 with improved virtual cockpit, we make a appointment to meet infront of his house in AF Airpark at hangar and walk to gliderfield togehter, maby we meet some there.

Well....this was fictional, but this is what is see for furture, to use fictional scenery like AF.

Have a great day all !

John.

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Could the larger portion of this thread be moved to another thread - something called "Philosophic thoughts on Flight simming" or something.

I think its a very very good discussion, but I agree with HansW that the thread is called "I dont like this because...." and so all this good stuff dosent belong here - BUT the discussion should be continued.

Alright then, let me get this thread back on the intended track for ya.....

I do NOT like this idea....... because I am not the publisher !

How's that grab you !?

:D

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