Mathijs Kok

SID's STAR's, routing.

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Ok well if this is just a VFR field, all you need is basically an overview of the area with obsticles that would be in the area. Lets remember that a VFR pilot is suppose to be watching where he is going and not his instruments. in IFR flights that is the point of SIDs/STARs. they are to allow aircraft to fly in on certain tracks and heights to avoid the terrain and also other traffic inbound/outbound. same and an IAC. They allow the aircraft to fly normally at the MSA (minimum safe altitude/ minimum sector altitude) to a certain radial/track/dme then proceed down on the approach glide path to either a MDA or MA (depending on if its a non-precision approach or precision approach).

Now for traffic in the area, im guessing mostly those just sightseeing around will be flying VFR for the majority of the time so i cannot imagine that it will be to much of an issue with these charts. However for those that say may be coming in IFR from somewhere a bit farther away (Zurich, Munich.... etc) and will be flying IFR, may want to continue inbound to a certail track/radial from a navaid and then descend to a MSA and then either pick up a visual and continue on a visual approach. What i think most pilots will probably do is proceed to the closest Navaid and then proceed VFR to the field.

Another interesting thing i just thought about would be is this Field going to be in controlled or uncontrolled airspace? Will we have a manned TWR for VATSIM/IVAO flights? If not then it will most likely be in uncontrolled airspace. Ok just went into my FSX to just look around. I see an NDB has been stationed at the field so thats not bad. the Nearest VOR is KPT (Kempten) which is around 18 miles away to the Northwest which will work and also the EUR (Eurach) VOR to the Northeast.

So for departures, the only thing i can see that wont really work first off for IFR departures, is the Mountains to the South. You would need to proceed Northbound till above them and then be able to make a turn to the south to go southbound. Lets focus on the departures firstly also.

For both RWY09 and RWY27 there are some interesting hills right on the departure path. these for most of your prop planes with heavy loads flying IFR will be issues, for RWY27 a sid could be as easy as maintain rwy heading till passing 500ft (RA) then right turn track the 360 track outbound from the NDB and till say a radial dme from the KPT VOR then track that radial inbound to the VOR. for 09 departures, you have some more obstacles in the way. you have the houses that will be on departure path, then the hill with the cable car in the way and not in the far distance, the mountain range. this one may need a maintain runway heading till passing at least 500ft from the highest obstacle on the cable car hill then left turn to track the 360 track form the NDB outbound till a certain radial/dme from the VOR.

Blue=ELVUM->FUSSE at 11000ft->HDG~70°ANF 115.0 at 7500ft-> 60°-> at 12 DME ANF and 5500ft turn right 240° to intercept ILS27 110.5(3).

Missed App: Continue HDG 268°, at 2 DME ANF or 4000 ft, whichever is earlier, turn right 290° Climb 8000 -> Holding at KPT 90°270° at 8000ft

Continue to EUR desc 6000ft

RED= NORIN->OBAGA at 10000ft->ANF 115.0 at 7500ft->290°-> at 12DME and 5500 ft turn left HDG 110 to intercept ILS09 109.5

Missed App: Continue HDG 88°, at 2 DME ANF or 4000 ft, whichever is earlier, turn left HDG 73, Climb 8000-> Holding at EUR 90°270° at 8000ft

Continue to KPT desc 6000ft

Target is to get each App from north to keep away from the Hills

Additional the Range from ANF is too short, originally 22.7 NM (why ?), for me i changed it to 100 NM temporary.

See Finals.jpg for this idea.

But overall, ILS 27 is very (too) tight

post-43-127765477357_thumb.jpg

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An ILS is really expensive, also I don't think the terrain will allow it (at least on 27).

Why not use Navaids which are allready there. I think all we need is a cloudbreaking procedure like a simple VOR approach out of KPT for RWY 09 and with circling north of the airport for RWY 27.

And don't forget, it's much more fun to fly than a simple ILS approach.

Also a SID or STAR is not necessarily required for a small airfield. It's enough if you can reach some waypoint or better navaid of a lower airspace airway.

If we want to conduct IFR all the way down to the ground we will need at least an airspace class F, because in germany IFR is not allowed in class G airspace which is situated from ground till 1000, 1700 or 2500ft GND.

Which is again an expensive thing. ;)

So the question is: Do we need to be able to fly all the way down to ILS CAT 1 550m VIS and DA of 200ft, or is it enough to get down to a VOR or circling minimum (with at least class F) or down where Class G starts with a simple cloudbreaking procedure and then cancel IFR and continue VFR (Class G in Germany: 1500m Vis, ground contact, stay clear of clouds)?

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I did a quick test ride out of the KPT VOR. First of all i don't have the actual figures like threshold elevation from the scenery, so I took them roughly out of the simulator. With my mesh the threshold should be at around 2800ft MSL and on radial 108 and DME 17.2 of KPT.

The approach starts out of KPT VOR at 7000ft, the final descent starts at ~ 4 DME with 3° all the way down to 17.2 DME and 2800ft MSL.

It is an offset approach with a light left turn on short final. If you stay on track or north everything is fine. But if you drift to the south, lets say on R110 you will end up in a hill at around 3400ft.

There are two ways around this: Define a higher MDA to cover the hill in the south, or use a navaid from the target airfield, due to the laws of geometrie it won't be only 2° off till impact but a lot more than that.

This was only a quick test ride. I should be able to build a working and "legal" approach, but this will take some time (looking up figures for terrain clearance and stuff) and would also require knowing hard facts about the airfield and the surrounding terrain.

What do you think? ;)

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Well, unless you might be right that SID´s and STAR´s not really necessary for Andras Field i´m sure, for a lot of Simmers they are important.

Simmer love the Procedures as you can see when you following Threads like the Aerosoft A320 ect.

Many guys would be very dissapointed when there aren´t at least 1 for each direction.

Nevermind that there will be posibly an (Online) ATC, those, which are using the Field offline or at times when the Tower/Radar is unmanned are pleased to have SID´s and STAR´s.

It´s not only "nice to have", it´s a "need to have" in my eyes.

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We could live without a STAR as long as we have procedures in place for the actual approaches. I'd start these either at the NDB or the VOR/DME provided. SIDs will be essential though with the high ground. I'll have a word with a couple of guys at work who look at this sort of thing for real and see what they have to say on the matter.

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We need to get this thing on the road.

Unfortunately I have no clue as how to make a SID or a STAR that works for this scenery.

CAN anyone of you clever guys out there come up with a fully working SID/STAR solution? IF and we use it I shall grant the user a GOLD membership in the upcoming AA Club, (Andras Aviation Club) with all the benefits of such a Gold membership.

So hit it boys and girls.

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Looks like it's time for me to dig out the ICAO Doc 8168 Volume 2 - Construction of Visual and Instrument Flight Procedures and do some reading.

GREAT.

Read fast, learn, let us benefit from it, and become a hero at Andras Field. :rolleyes:

Edit.... I just downloaded the file myself. JEEZ man. its 800 pages of stuff as dry as the Sahara desert. Might be good as a substitute for sleeping pills though. :lol:

Happy reading Chaders.

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GREAT.

Read fast, learn, let us benefit from it, and become a hero at Andras Field. :rolleyes:

Edit.... I just downloaded the file myself. JEEZ man. its 800 pages of stuff as dry as the Sahara desert. Might be good as a substitute for sleeping pills though. :lol:

Happy reading Chaders.

Ole do we have any ideas on pattern height etc if not i can work on em

regards

craig

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See Finals.jpg for this idea.

But overall, ILS 27 is very (too) tight

Mathijs,

a few remarks.

For my tests today I flew to KPT and then a southern direction to intercept the ILS 09 (it's easterly winds today). Going out towards the West, I'd suggest a straight climb to about 5000 ft and then left turn to intercept KPT again.

As this is supposed to be a former Air Force Base, I don't see it too unlikely for it to have ILS, particularly in this area which has a lot of low cloud and fog in winter.

Kempten VOR would be the logical start of any IAP, certainly to 09 but also to 27. Eurach should not be used any more as it is withdrawn in real life and therefore won't be in many databases. FUSSE would be another but due to the Terrain I'd suggest to make it an arrival route towards KPT and then work out the rest from there.

The APP to 27 can be drawn from KPT either directly to the VOR like you suggest and with a teardrop back onto the ILS, or it could go onto a sort of downwind and then onto the ILS. From the East, I'd suggest startig at KOGOL, as it is on an airway and in the correct distance too.

For SIDs, I would do two sets, one to KPT again and the other to KOGOL. FUSSE again will require quite a bit of climb gradient so it can be a transition after KPT.

I'll try to put something together but I am a lousy draftsman, so I'll have to figure out how to draw a proper map. Where is Georges Lorsche and his "Final Approach" when one needs it :)

Best regards

Urs

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Looks like there is a couple of us looking at this. Maybe we should co-ordinate so we're not wasting effort. Does anyone know what the prevailing winds are at the field as it will affect the orientation of the Hold any IAP will need. I'd suggest this should be at ANF obviously to the north of the beacon to give us the best terrain clearance. Depending on if we make this a left or right hand hold would let us know if a teardrop or alternate (like a long downwind) procedure would be used to align us with the final approach course.

One area I am struggling with is getting good elevation data to work with. Does anyone have a KML file that has the position of the runways NDB and VOR on the field. I might be able to get by with Google earth.

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One area I am struggling with is getting good elevation data to work with. Does anyone have a KML file that has the position of the runways NDB and VOR on the field. I might be able to get by with Google earth.

Hi,

Regarding elevation a kml file won't help as the airport area is actually flattened in FSX.

The elevation is 777 meters.

Runway: N47* 38.8688' and E10* 45.6512'

VOR: N47* 39.0696' and E10* 46.4375'

NDB: N47* 38.8636' and E10* 44.5232'

Andras

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Hi,

Regarding elevation a kml file won't help as the airport area is actually flattened in FSX.

The elevation is 777 meters.

Runway: N47* 38.8688' and E10* 45.6512'

VOR: N47* 39.0696' and E10* 46.4375'

NDB: N47* 38.8636' and E10* 44.5232'

Andras

Hi Andras,

I was trying to find out the elevation of the surrounding areas for obstacle clearance heights on the instrument approaches. I figures I could get a rough idea that should be close enough for the sim.

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Hi Richard,

may be it's of interest for you: in this post I put together the data that needs to be changed in Navigraph files to make Andras and its navaids visible in the FMC of PMDG and Flight1's Mustang/Cheyenne/Fokker/Super 80 Professional.

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Just a little query, The DME's associated with the 2 ILS at the field appear to be set to 0 at the opposite thresholds to where they should be. It's usual for a DME to read zero at the threshold of the runway that you're approaching not the far end of the runway.

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just to clarify, I'm not an expert in this and I did some kind of "reverse engineering" to find out what kind of data needed. Problem is that the format for the various addons supported by Navigraph is very different. In some cases it was not clear what the different values are standing for and I tried a best guess by comparing the values between the different entries.

So if you have data that make more sense, just tell me where to put them.

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just to clarify, I'm not an expert in this and I did some kind of "reverse engineering" to find out what kind of data needed. Problem is that the format for the various addons supported by Navigraph is very different. In some cases it was not clear what the different values are standing for and I tried a best guess by comparing the values between the different entries.

So if you have data that make more sense, just tell me where to put them.

Sorry mate my previous post was regarding the DMEs in the actual scenery. I've not tried your changes to the FMC data as yet.

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Sorry mate my previous post was regarding the DMEs in the actual scenery. I've not tried your changes to the FMC data as yet.

OK ;)

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GREAT.

Read fast, learn, let us benefit from it, and become a hero at Andras Field. :rolleyes:

Edit.... I just downloaded the file myself. JEEZ man. its 800 pages of stuff as dry as the Sahara desert. Might be good as a substitute for sleeping pills though. :lol:

Happy reading Chaders.

Welcome to my life as a controller! Reading books that are done by lawers to make sure everything is hard to understand!

I have been trying to find a decent map of the area that i can work on. One that perhaps has height clearance of the mountains but have not been able to find one as of yet.

Just a little query, The DME's associated with the 2 ILS at the field appear to be set to 0 at the opposite thresholds to where they should be. It's usual for a DME to read zero at the threshold of the runway that you're approaching not the far end of the runway.

I dont know what airports you fly into as that is not where you will find an ILS DME reading normally.

The DME for a ILS is at the Localizer station and the LOC is found 1000ft from the opposite end of the runway that the ILS is used for (e.g. the LOC for rwy09 will be found 1000ft from the end of the threshold for rwy27). Hence why you should never read a DME of 0 for the LOC at the start of the rwy you plan to use.

So to answer your question, these are the correct readings for the ILS for each rwy.

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I dont know what airports you fly into as that is not where you will find an ILS DME reading normally.

Several in the UK. I can say with some certainty that the ILS's at EGNM EGNV EGNH and EGCN read 0 at the threshold of the active approach runway.

The DME for a ILS is at the Localizer station and the LOC is found 1000ft from the opposite end of the runway that the ILS is used for (e.g. the LOC for rwy09 will be found 1000ft from the end of the threshold for rwy27). Hence why you should never read a DME of 0 for the LOC at the start of the rwy you plan to use.

So to answer your question, these are the correct readings for the ILS for each rwy.

But remember because of the design of the DME system it's possible to allter the response time of the beacon to have a zero reading some distance from the ground station. Quite often where one DME services 2 runways the DME transponder is placed half way between the two thresholds and the response delay is reduced to make it under read by half a runway length. This gives the zero reading on the threshold. Obviously this is only the case with ILS associated DMEs.

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GREAT.

Read fast, learn, let us benefit from it, and become a hero at Andras Field. :rolleyes:

Edit.... I just downloaded the file myself. JEEZ man. its 800 pages of stuff as dry as the Sahara desert. Might be good as a substitute for sleeping pills though. :lol:

Happy reading Chaders.

Hi

Well if you want a can make you stars and sids as i have worked on those for lkpr in real live. Just pm me if you want.

Sekerka

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Hi

Well if you want a can make you stars and sids as i have worked on those for lkpr in real live. Just pm me if you want.

Sekerka

I have sent you a PM buddy.

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How complex do these procedures need to be? I am starting drafting as we speak and just wanted to know how intense these IFR sheets need to be.

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How complex do these procedures need to be? I am starting drafting as we speak and just wanted to know how intense these IFR sheets need to be.

Already under construction: see here

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