Steering the BushHawk on the ground

[etrpilot 0]

Hi all,

There was another tread about this from a while back but it did not really answer the question I have. First off I do not have rudder pedals so please keep that in mind. With the BushHawk with the tail dragger wheel version or the ski version the auto rudder does not work on the ground so I find it impossible to steer using my flight yoke with the auto rudder enabled. With the float version the auto rudder does work for me so steering is fine both on the ground and in the water.

If I reassign my joystick axis so instead of controller the ailerons I am controller the rudder I can steer both the taill dragger wheel version and the ski version no problem on the ground. Also if I leave my flight yoke controlling the ailerons and user the keyboard to control the rudders I can also steer with no problem on the ground and in the water. So I know the BushHawk does respond to rudder movements on the ground. So my question....is it possible to control the steering of the BushHawk on the ground using a flight yoke and auto rudder and not having to use the keyboard rudder controls or rudder pedals.

Thanks

Eric

[Snave 466]

Hi all,

There was another tread about this from a while back but it did not really answer the question I have. First off I do not have rudder pedals so please keep that in mind. With the BushHawk with the tail dragger wheel version or the ski version the auto rudder does not work on the ground so I find it impossible to steer using my flight yoke with the auto rudder enabled. With the float version the auto rudder does work for me so steering is fine both on the ground and in the water.

If I reassign my joystick axis so instead of controller the ailerons I am controller the rudder I can steer both the taill dragger wheel version and the ski version no problem on the ground. Also if I leave my flight yoke controlling the ailerons and user the keyboard to control the rudders I can also steer with no problem on the ground and in the water. So I know the BushHawk does respond to rudder movements on the ground. So my question....is it possible to control the steering of the BushHawk on the ground using a flight yoke and auto rudder and not having to use the keyboard rudder controls or rudder pedals.

Thanks

Eric

Erm, yes. Use differential brakes.

[etrpilot 0]

Thanks for the reply Snave. I did try that and yes it does work. The tight turn radius is quite nice. If I had rudder pedals with toe breaks the whole thing would be a non issue for me. However I find using the keyboard for differential braking as awkward as using the keyboard for rudder control. And while it certainly does answer my question, my question did not get to the heart of the matter which is why does the autorudder not work on the ground with those 2 versions of the BushHawk and is there any way I can get it to work. It might be interesting to note that Microsoft's Extra 300 s acts the same way as those BushHawks yet the Cub, the Maule and the DC 3 do not.

Thanks

Eric

[Snave 466]

Thanks for the reply Snave. I did try that and yes it does work. The tight turn radius is quite nice. If I had rudder pedals with toe breaks the whole thing would be a non issue for me. However I find using the keyboard for differential braking as awkward as using the keyboard for rudder control. And while it certainly does answer my question, my question did not get to the heart of the matter which is why does the autorudder not work on the ground with those 2 versions of the BushHawk and is there any way I can get it to work. It might be interesting to note that Microsoft's Extra 300 s acts the same way as those BushHawks yet the Cub, the Maule and the DC 3 do not.

Thanks

Eric

Try to switch the tailwheel lock off (Ctrl+G, defualt key). Possibly you have an out-of-phase tailwheel lock command in the sim, perhaps from a saved flight. Try loading the default Cessna first, THEN loading the BH - does it steer now on autorudder?

[horst18519 231]

Maybe I didn't understand your problem, but Simon already gave all the answers to it.

There are 2 ways to steer a taildragger aircraft like a DC3 or the Bush Hawk taildragger on ground:

- differential brakes

- throttle+rudder

Sometimes you use both techniques, sometimes only throttle+rudder. In this case give the throttle a boost and deflect rudder to max. The boost from the engine gives the tail a big big momentum to make a nice turn almost on the spot.

This should work with autorudder as well as with 3-axis joysticks and/or pedals.

For the differential brakes just assign 2 keys for them.

[etrpilot 0]

Try to switch the tailwheel lock off (Ctrl+G, defualt key). Possibly you have an out-of-phase tailwheel lock command in the sim, perhaps from a saved flight. Try loading the default Cessna first, THEN loading the BH - does it steer now on autorudder?

Hi,

Thanks again for your reply. Yes I have tried all those items actually, on my system it is Shift+G for the tailwheel lock. I went so far as to reset all the controls to default settings, I reset my default startup flight to the MS original one, I have loaded the the Cessna first, in fact my own default flight was set that way. One interesting thing I have found is the tailwheel lock seems to have no effect on the piper cub at all. I did take a look at the controls\standard.xml file and there is only the 1 entry in it for the tailweeel lock. I am starting to wonder if this has something to do with having a Saitek flight yoke and throttle quadrant because the other person that had the same setup had the same problem months ago.

One thing I have not looked into is any fsuipc issue, but I don't have a registered version so I thought it would be a non issue. I will keep trying to figure this out.

Eric

[etrpilot 0]

Maybe I didn't understand your problem, but Simon already gave all the answers to it.

There are 2 ways to steer a taildragger aircraft like a DC3 or the Bush Hawk taildragger on ground:

- differential brakes

- throttle+rudder

Sometimes you use both techniques, sometimes only throttle+rudder. In this case give the throttle a boost and deflect rudder to max. The boost from the engine gives the tail a big big momentum to make a nice turn almost on the spot.

This should work with autorudder as well as with 3-axis joysticks and/or pedals.

For the differential brakes just assign 2 keys for them.

Hi and thanks for your reply.

Just to clarify my issue, I have a Saitek flight yoke and throttle quadrant. I do not have rudder peddles. When on the ground I cannot control the steering with the flight yoke with autorudder turned on. I can control the steering of the DC3 on the ground with the flight yoke and autorudder turned on.

I have tried all of Snave's suggestions and still it does not work. Yes I can use the keyboard to control the steering, but I find it awkward. I would certainly prefer controlling the plane on the ground using the yoke with the autorudder turned on. I did follow your suggestion of the large boost of throttle but that did not help either.

Months ago another user had the same problem and they were also using the saitek flight yoke. Is there any possiblility of that being the issue with the BushHawk and not the DC3?

Thanks

Eric

[Snave 466]

No.

[horst18519 231]

Now there are taildragger aircraft and there are taildragger aircraft. Some of them have steerable tail wheels (afaIk), but the Bush Hawk doesn't, so you can't 'steer' her, no matter what kind of hardware you use. You can only use the 2 ways I described above. They sure work with the Bush Hawk, even with autorudder.

[etrpilot 0]

Well I am giving up on this problem, I simply don't believe it works and here is why.

I installed FSX deluxe to another computer, then installed sp1, ran fsx, then I installed sp2 and ran fsx, then I installed the BushHawk as the only addon to this fresh install of fsx. I then tested it with no joystick having been hooked up yet at this point, using the mouse yoke and autorudders I still had no directional control on the ground. I then hooked up a simple logitech joystick, not my saitek flight yoke, and I had the same problem, and yes I have tried without and with the latest service pack for the bushhawk. And I did make sure to load the cessna c172 first and I did try toggling the tailwheel lock. The OS was XP mce 32bit

So on two seperate computers with different joysticks and one system having a completely clean version of fsx deluxe installed it did not work. I have followed the instructions very closely. The only way I have directional control of the BushHawk on the ground is to use the keyboard for rudder control or use the keyboard for differential braking, both of which I find awkward but I will live with it.

Thanks for you help.

Eric

P.S. If you think this is user error I would be happy to consider what you think I could be doing wrong.

[Guest Hodge001]

Hi Eric

I also have the Saitek yoke, and I do agree that using the keyboard for rudder control, or any FS controls actually, can be awkward, but I was also wondering why you don’t use the left / right toggle switch on the right hand side of the yoke to act as you rudder control / differential brakes in say mode 2 during ground operations, you can then go to mode 1 for airborne operations and have the toggle switch revert back to whatever it is currently programmed for.

Just a thought.

Jim Hodkinson

[horst18519 231]

Eric, I see that this problem is annoying, but as I said before: maybe it's rather a misunderstanding. There is no actual steering of a taildragger aircraft like the Bush Hawk. You can only use brakes and the thrust force on the deflected rudder.

To test if everything is ok for you, you simply have to deflect the ailerons with autorudder turned on. Does the rudder move? If no you've got a problem (autorudder doesn't seem to work in that case). If it moves (which I expect) you've got everything you need. The rest is practice.

[Snave 466]

One tip for FSX is that you need to combine rudder deflection with nose-down elevator on these non-steering taildraggers. FSX exaggerates the effectiveness of the elevator taking some weight off the tail as slipstream effect.

But at the end of the day this is NOT about rudder control - you have been told numerous tmies that this model does NOT have tailwheel steering, so the link with rudder/autorudder/or any joystick issue is simply not relevant. But still you keep coming back to it.

Why?

What you need to learn is differential braking - using separate keys for left/right brake. Keypress braking is TIME sensitive in FSX and the braking force increases with press duration. For mild steering it's tap,tap,tap, for tighter turns `PressAndHold`.

That's it, and all you need to do.

[etrpilot 0]

....

But at the end of the day this is NOT about rudder control - you have been told numerous tmies that this model does NOT have tailwheel steering, so the link with rudder/autorudder/or any joystick issue is simply not relevant. But still you keep coming back to it.

Why?

What you need to learn is differential braking - using separate keys for left/right brake. Keypress braking is TIME sensitive in FSX and the braking force increases with press duration. For mild steering it's tap,tap,tap, for tighter turns `PressAndHold`.

That's it, and all you need to do.

You ask why. Well, if you read the replies from Thorsten Reichert, who I assume to be the developer, he has clearly stated 3 times in this thread that it should work. By 'it' I am talking about autorudder control on the ground with the BushHawk. Now if the developer would say, no that does not work, then that would be fine with me. But he has stated clearly that it should work. Since it should work and since it is how I prefer it to work why would I not try to get it to work?

[etrpilot 0]

Hi Eric

I also have the Saitek yoke, and I do agree that using the keyboard for rudder control, or any FS controls actually, can be awkward, but I was also wondering why you don't use the left / right toggle switch on the right hand side of the yoke to act as you rudder control / differential brakes in say mode 2 during ground operations, you can then go to mode 1 for airborne operations and have the toggle switch revert back to whatever it is currently programmed for.

Just a thought.

Jim Hodkinson

Jim,

Thanks for the suggestion, I will give that a try and see how I like it. It sounds promising.

Eric

[etrpilot 0]

Eric, I see that this problem is annoying, but as I said before: maybe it's rather a misunderstanding. There is no actual steering of a taildragger aircraft like the Bush Hawk. You can only use brakes and "the thrust force on the deflected rudder".

To test if everything is ok for you, you simply have to deflect the ailerons with autorudder turned on. Does the rudder move? If no you've got a problem (autorudder doesn't seem to work in that case). If it moves (which I expect) you've got everything you need. The rest is practice.

I followed your suggestion above. As a test I loaded the piper cub. I made sure that the autorudder was turned on. I then viewed the tail of the plane as I turned my flight yoke. The ailerons moved but the rudder did not visually deflect. However the aircraft did turn and I was able to control the direction of the aircraft on the ground with the autorudder even though visually the rudder was not deflected. Have you actually tested this yourself to see if FSX actually shows the movement of the rudder on aircraft using autorudder? I don't know if what I am seeing is normal for fsx or not. If it is not then clearly I have some kind of problem on 2 machines, using 2 seperate joysticks.

I then performed the same test with the BushHawk. Again the rudder did not visually move but the aircraft did not turn and was not under directional control on the ground with the autorudder.

I understand that with taildraggers the steering for the aircraft on the ground is not actually done by the tailwheel but by either differential breaking or "the thrust force on the deflected rudder". If you had said that the BushHawk does not react to autorudder control on the ground and that was how it was designed, then fine I would have accpeted that as a design choice. However you have said 3 times that the BushHawk should react to autorudder control on the ground for taxiing but I cannot get it to work for me. And I can't get it to work on 2 seperate machines, one of which has a clean install of FSX and the BushHawk.

So I am trying to figure out why it does not work on my two machines when you have said that it should work. I am willing to accpet I am doing something wrong but I honestly cannot see what it can possibly be.

Thanks

Eric

[bumprock 9]

... However you have said 3 times that the BushHawk should react to autorudder control on the ground for taxiing but I cannot get it to work for me. And I can't get it to work on 2 seperate machines, one of which has a clean install of FSX and the BushHawk.

So I am trying to figure out why it does not work on my two machines when you have said that it should work. I am willing to accpet I am doing something wrong but I honestly cannot see what it can possibly be.

Thanks

Eric

I have the Saitek AV8R-01, running FSX w/Acceleration in Win 7 on my laptop and the most recent version of the Bush Hawk. While I do not normally use auto rudder, I tried it both ways and had no issues steering on the ground. Twisting the stick is my rudder assignment, and in AR banking on the ground also turned the rudder, but forced a shallower turn, unless I also depressed the brake for differential braking while turning. Taxiing around O'Hare in Chicago was no problem both with and without autorudder.

Then, I changed the season to January and the weather to winter wonderland, icing effects turned on, climbed to 10,000 feet and iced up. My rudder would not come unstuck. I was able to bank and landed. Now, when I landed I could not turn with the rudder control in either normal or autorudder, and differential braking did not work using the rudder control, but using the key assignments did, though it was a pain.

Once the rudder iced up, resetting the failures and turning off icing effects did not restore the steering. The only way to get it back was to save and restart the flight or start a new flight. This had been a problem befrore the new upgrade, and apparantly it has not been fixed.

This may have relevance to your problems.

SW

[etrpilot 0]

Thanks for your input SW.

When you said "... AR banking on the ground also turned the rudder" did you mean that you visually saw the rudder deflect or simply that the airplane turned. I ask because I am now trying to determine if MS FSX actually shows the rudder deflect when using only the autorudder feature and not using any twisting stick or rudder pedal controls. You see if the autorudder on your system actually visually shows the rudder deflecting then I have a problem with my autorudder and not with this aircraft because I cannot see the autorudder visually deflect the rudder on any of my aircraft. Knowing what FSX is supposed to do would be helpful in this situation.

Thanks

Eric.

[Paul G 13]

Thanks for your input SW.

When you said "... AR banking on the ground also turned the rudder" did you mean that you visually saw the rudder deflect or simply that the airplane turned. I ask because I am now trying to determine if MS FSX actually shows the rudder deflect when using only the autorudder feature and not using any twisting stick or rudder pedal controls. You see if the autorudder on your system actually visually shows the rudder deflecting then I have a problem with my autorudder and not with this aircraft because I cannot see the autorudder visually deflect the rudder on any of my aircraft. Knowing what FSX is supposed to do would be helpful in this situation.

Thanks

Eric.

Indeed the autorudder does not use the rudder animation when active; for any aircraft.

Two things I would recommend doing are: Use a twist action joy stick, or buy rudder pedals (Unless you're saving up for a pair.)

[etrpilot 0]

Indeed the autorudder does not use the rudder animation when active; for any aircraft.

Two things I would recommend doing are: Use a twist action joy stick, or buy rudder pedals (Unless you're saving up for a pair.)

Thank you Paul for the confirmation on the animation of the rudder. That helps me a lot. I do have a twisting joy stick actually but I don't like it, so yes longer term solution will be pedals.

Eric.

[horst18519 231]

I do have to admit that there is indeed some bug (?) in FSX I didn't discover yet, just because I never used the autorudder option, nor seem to have the testers on our beta team back then.

You are right that FSX does not show rudder animation/function on tailwheel aircraft with a non steering tailwheel and with autorudder on. So I was not correct with what I wrote above that it would be possible to steer the Bush Hawk this way.

The weird part is that this works for the amphibian version of the Bush Hawk despite the fact that this version also has no steerable wheels. The front wheels are just like tail wheels mounted at the front of the aircraft.

So FSX definitely has some bug here, a bug that we can't fix.

But I guess 99% of flightsim users have a yoke/joystick with 3 axis anyway. If not use the rudder keys on your num pad as suggested above.

[etrpilot 0]

Hi Thorsten

Yeah it does sound like an MS "feature" to me. Even one of the MS planes, the Extra 300S does the same thing, I cannot use autorudder on the ground to control it as well. It was important to me to make sure it was not my system and something I could fix. So it will remain a mystery and for now I will heed the advice of others and yourself to use the keyboard for ground control. It is not a big deal. It's not like I am spending hours driving around an airport, LOL.

Thanks for you time.

Eric

P.S. I do really enjoy this airplane and the "assisted flights" too.

[horst18519 231]

It is not a big deal. It's not like I am spending hours driving around an airport, LOL.

I sure hope so, the Bush Hawk is an aircraft, no taxi.

Funny thing is that last week I visited a big airport for an upcoming addon and we taxied around its taxiways for at least 20 minutes in a C172. That felt totally weird even though we had a steerable front wheel.