NEW YEAR Question of the day (Last one)

[Dotsalgon 13]

Why is not intended as "Why you see it" but "why are they up"

Why Do I have the fealing that they are not up and they operate as flaps for approach ??

[Albrecht 9]

What do you see? A motorglider, which seems to fly without a pilot.

Why do you see it? Because I have eyes and my farsightedness is corrected by glasses (and I'm near enough to my screen)!

And how does it work? There is a pilot. But he is searching for his glasses under the seat.

OK, I'll go back to the "Let's have a laugh"-Topic.

[liam727 45]

"Why" is asked in qetion 2, "how" in question 3

I never said you're complete wrong, I just told you, that you're not completely right.

Uhm? So you think a glider enters a thermal with intended loss of energy, to get energy in the thermal? No, really.

And No the picture has nothing to do with thermals.

TMG = right

confused with an airplane? It actually IS an airplane.

No it is no Grob G 1 what ever this shopuld be (the only Grob TMG, I know of, is the G109)

The plane in the picture is a H36 Dimona from Hoffmann. And sorry, gliding is a mess with such a plane. It is a cheap way of flying, because of less maintenance costs and a low fuel consumption but not designed as a glider. You can fly without the engine, and you're allowed to do but belive me I tried it. It is a mess, at least for pilots who know "real" sailplanes also

sorry i meant g109 it was a typo. and im surprised its not it becasue it looks exactly like the grob.

even though its difficult, its clearly built as a motor glider, not a performance sailplane, which is why its a tmg. as said its efficient wings make up for the low horse power

[Tyrion 72]

found another source of information that might be it (I sure hope so lol)

So we agreed on 1) Both ailerons are deflected upwards

As for the why: To reduce stress on the outboard wing section, and in fact to increase wing effectiveness

how: As the aircraft is flying with a relative high AoA, there will be high stresses on the wings.

Because the wings are so long, they tend to twist easily. When the ailerons are in the normal (neutral) position,

This will cause the entire outboard wing section to twist trailing edge upwards. Because of this, overall lift will decrease.

When the ailerons are moved upwards, and thus moved outside the airstream (more or less, they will still be effective as ailerons) the twisting force on the wing decreases,

and the outboard wing section will remain in it's normal shape.

The ailerons will loose a little lift, but the normal wing will remain it's basic characteristics.

I hope this is the answer you're looking for...

[Pies 4]

What: Ailerons Deflected Upwards

Why: Manoeuvre Load Alleviation, to relieve structural loads

How: It works by redistributing the lift over the wing, therefore reducing structural load on the outer surfaces of the wing

I really hope this is correct, been racking my Brain and reseached sooo darn hard .

EDIT: Anyone notice the forums going extremely slow? It's taken me about 20 minutes just to add this one post, and even that was only after re-setting my Wireless D-Link Router!

[J.Schweigler 203]

You get closer and closer but now you mix 2 and 3. There is still one point missing.

@Tyron Wingtwist is no problem on such a plane. You have the problen in open class gliders with at least 25 meters wingspan and very slim wings. But there you have flaps all over the wing. So twist is not the issue here.

[Pies 4]

What: Ailerons deflected Upwards

Why: To relive structural loads on the Outer Wing Surfce

How: It's called Manoeuvre Load Alleviation. It is when both Ailerons are Symmetrically Deflected, causing the lift to be redistributed over the Wing, therefore reducing Structural Load on the Outer Surface of the Wing, and allowing the Load to be spread.

Correct?

[Lennart B. 6]

Both ailerons are moved above neutral.

This is used by R/C planes in some cases to make the final approach easier, it eliminates some lift, of which such a motorglider would have more than enough during landing, and the plane can approach with a higher angle of attack which causes more drag, which means that it will get slower before landing and it helps getting a good angle of attack to make a nice 3 point landing with a tail gear equipped aircraft. That´s how I know it from R/C use, don´t know if it is exactly right, and how it can be taken over to real flying, but at least it´s a try....

[J.Schweigler 203]

What: Ailerons deflected Upwards

Why: To relive structural loads on the Outer Wing Surfce

How: It's called Manoeuvre Load Alleviation. It is when both Ailerons are Symmetrically Deflected, causing the lift to be redistributed over the Wing, therefore reducing Structural Load on the Outer Surface of the Wing, and allowing the Load to be spread.

You're mixing 2 and 3 again. I want to know, how it works, that the plane does, what it does.

Both ailerons are moved above neutral.

This is used by R/C planes in some cases to make the final approach easier, it eliminates some lift, of which such a motorglider would have more than enough during landing, and the plane can approach with a higher angle of attack which causes more drag, which means that it will get slower before landing and it helps getting a good angle of attack to make a nice 3 point landing with a tail gear equipped aircraft. That´s how I know it from R/C use, don´t know if it is exactly right, and how it can be taken over to real flying, but at least it´s a try....

Yeah used by RC Planes, right.

I also Fly RC Models. But I haven't seen this technology yet on a full scale plane.

So still not complete answered, You're still all in race

Joachim

[Pies 4]

I am very confused at what is being asked? I am stating what the Aircraft is doing, and how that works?

[Tyrion 72]

what: ailerons deflecting upwards (both of them)

why: the decrease structural loads on the outboard section of the wings

how: When both ailerons are deflected upwards, the section of the wing where the ailerons are located, will loose some lift.

To make up for this effect, angle of attack will increase, causing the rest of the wing to increase lift.

The overall lift stays the same. This increase in angle of attack is possible because the aileron deflection (when not too much) actually reduces drag locally.

What the plane does: rate of climb and speed will stay approximately the same, angle of attack increases, outboard wings produce less lift and drag,

inboard wings produce more lift and drag.

[Pies 4]

What: Both Ailerons Deflected Upwards

Why I see: The Ailerons are in the upward position to reduce Load on the outer surfaces of the Wing

How: Both Ailerons deflected upwards means that the outer surfaces loose lift, therefore the Load is spread more equally over the Wing, overall lift is the same. It is called Maneouvre Load Alleviation.

I know the exact, answer, just not sure how you want it phrasing?

EDIT: Again the forum is ridiculously slow. Taken me ages just to do this one post... Off to re-set my Router again...

[J.Schweigler 203]

Hmm, at my end the forum is very fast. No problem here.

OK, Let me make it a bit more easy:

What do we see? Right, both ailerons up

Why do we see that? Rhight, it is to reduce the load on the outer wings. (I don't want to say more now)

But HOW does the plane do it?

This is the last question. Wich technical trick is used to get both ailerons up?

This don't means "what happenes when both ailerons are up?"

Now with 2 of 3 questions answered it should be rather easy

Now shoot!!!

[Pies 4]

Hmm, at my end the forum is very fast. No problem here.

OK, Let me make it a bit more easy:

What do we see? Right, both ailerons up

Why do we see that? Rhight, it is to reduce the load on the outer wings. (I don't want to say more now)

But HOW does the plane do it?

This is the last question. Wich technical trick is used to get both ailerons up?

This don't means "what happenes when both ailerons are up?"

Now with 2 of 3 questions answered it should be rather easy

Now shoot!!!

It is called Reflexing! The technical trick is called Reflexing! Am I correct?

[J.Schweigler 203]

At least it is something very similar to "Manoeuvre Load Alleviation".

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4796192.html

This is the patent you mention.

But the dates of the patent are newer than the plane is.

It is all mechanical in the H36. No electronics. Easy but effective

[Pies 4]

Manouevre Load Alleviation is caused by "Reflexing" both Ailerons upwards. Am I correct?

[J.Schweigler 203]

Reflexing? never heared it. Please gimme a link to an explanation, so I can decide if this is right

[Pies 4]

Here: http://www.angelfire.com/on/dragonflyaircraft/reflexing.html

And Also Here: http://www.cmfhobbies.com/How-To-trim-an-Aircraft!!/I60.htm

Also, another explanation could be to trim both Ailerons Upwards to achieve Manouevre Load Alleviation.

[Pies 4]

Also, you could adjust the Mechanical Connection from the Servo to the Ailerons to deflect both upwards, achieving Load Manourvre Alleviation

[Pies 4]

Please read my next post.

[J.Schweigler 203]

ok, sorry, no reflexing, and there is absolutely NO SERVO in the plane. The ailerons are mechanical attached to the Stick. And the aileron up is dynamic. On the ground they are alligned to the trailing edge

[Pies 4]

You could disconnect each Aileron in turn, then adjust them (increase/decrease the mechanical connect length to the Aileron) until both Ailerons are Deflected Upwards, thus hopefully achieving Manouevre Load Alleviation.

Is this correct? Or is my Trimming answer correct?

[J.Schweigler 203]

both wrong

Again, when the aircraft stands on the ground the ailerons are neutral

look at this

[Pies 4]

both wrong

Again, when the aircraft stands on the ground the ailerons are neutral

look at this

are you saying that this is caused not by Mechanical adjustment, but an actual Fly Manouevre?

[Pies 4]

I have another answer.

Is this trick called "Gust Alleviation" by any chance?