A new simulator

[flyingsub 7]

Just take a look at how mapping technology is coming along

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427366.400-3d-mashup-maps-let-you-edit-the-world.html

[Arista 64]

We will definitely have clouds that cast shadows in 2010.

Is there anything in FSX which remotely supports that?

[Robert Halmich 8]

Is there anything in FSX which remotely supports that?

Real Environment X is working on this at the moment. Tim Fuchs has posted a screenshot in their forum but there has not been any official announcement as of yet. They are busy finishing off REx for FS9 so I would imagine once that is delivered we may hear more about cloud shadows.

[Colin Caughie 7]

Real Environment X is working on this at the moment. Tim Fuchs has posted a screenshot in their forum but there has not been any official announcement as of yet. They are busy finishing off REx for FS9 so I would imagine once that is delivered we may hear more about cloud shadows.

The thing about cloud shadows is that they can only ever be as good as the actual clouds. In FSX anything other than scattered, wispy clouds is pretty much an illusion, which I suspect will be immediately shown up once they're projected onto the ground.

This is one thing I'm hoping a new flight simulator designed from scratch will address.

Colin

[CaptainTim 11]

HI Mathjis,

r.e. a closed forum - I was wondering whether anything regarding the NDA had been further discussed? As unless I am much mistaken nothing has been posted.

Best Wishes,

Tim

[awesome 22]

The thing about cloud shadows is that they can only ever be as good as the actual clouds. In FSX anything other than scattered, wispy clouds is pretty much an illusion, which I suspect will be immediately shown up once they're projected onto the ground.

This is one thing I'm hoping a new flight simulator designed from scratch will address.

Colin

That doesn't matter I think. In real life cloud shadows have very fuzzy borders too. There isn't a sharp border between shadow and not shadow.

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

Still reading, still taking notes. Keep discussing it.

To give you something to talk about, let me upload an image of experiments we are doing with graphics engines. I can not tell you what it is, for many reasons. But it looks great and it's fast in DX111.and I think it is pretty 'fluffy' and 'wispy'

[frkaipanika 9]

Can we consider those as first ever screenshots of AFS2012??

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

Can we consider those as first ever screenshots of AFS2012??

No most certainly not. Honestly.

[Alexander Wurz 42]

These images are looking really fantastic. i like the first one better

[Colin Caughie 7]

To give you something to talk about, let me upload an image of experiments we are doing with graphics engines. I can not tell you what it is, for many reasons. But it looks great and it's fast in DX111.and I think it is pretty 'fluffy' and 'wispy'

These look great. I think I wasn't clear though, although FSX is reasonably good at depicting small-ish fluffy and wispy clouds, it's not much good at anything else. Overcast is simulated by a conglomeration of small-ish fluffy clouds, and can look reasonably convincing side-on, but from above or below it just looks like a bunch of small clouds. This is what I think will show up in the shadows.

The pictures from your engine look good, but not all clouds are fluffy and wispy, in fact that variety is pretty rare where I'm from (Scotland). A lot of them look really solid and sharp-edged until you get right up close. And the sizes of them varies enormously, from tiny little wisps to great big slabs that cover most of the sky. It's that variety that I'd be looking for.

Here's a good video that shows some of what I'm talking about. The colours are a bit exaggerated but it gives the general idea.

Colin

[BPL 39]

FSX did pretty badly at simulating clouds. The "overcast" isn't overcast at all. It's just a bunch of broken sheet-like clouds bunched together. There's never any, as my great-grandma calls it, "smooth cloudy." When it's overcast, there shouldn't be a single break in the cloud cover. Also, the simulation of flying through a cloud in FSX is some of the worst I've ever seen. It just looks as if you're flying through a bunch of 2D sheets. IL2 does very well with clouds and fog. I love the low-lying fog in the morning in IL2. This is what I'd like to see in AFS2012.

[awesome 22]

Can't say those images look great. But it IS great that there is progress in the whole project

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

Can't say those images look great. But it IS great that there is progress in the whole project

Really? Can you show me any image from a actual $50 sim that looks better under these conditions? Or even gets close to it? No offense, but if you expect a lot more you got to find me the hardware that sells for $1000 in 2012 and can handle 4 times the data that we are discussing right now.

See I rather not get any expectations up that we can't match.

[awesome 22]

Really? Can you show me any image from a actual $50 sim that looks better under these conditions? Or even gets close to it? No offense, but if you expect a lot more you got to find me the hardware that sells for $1000 in 2012 and can handle 4 times the data that we are discussing right now.

See I rather not get any expectations up that we can't match.

Yes, really.

We do not see the same thing in those pictures. What I see on the pictures is a kind of blurred skyscape (ok, the lightning looks nice). But I as an outsider obviously know absolutely nothing about the technical background. You (I presume), in contrast, know what's going in.. that there are many complex calculations being made about wind, turbulence, moisture, visibility, DX 11 and whatnot (I just made up these things so you get my point). That's probably what you mean with "under these conditions"? I don't expect anything at all.. Was just telling what my amateur eyes see on the picture. Please don't be angry at me.

[Colin Caughie 7]

Really? Can you show me any image from a actual $50 sim that looks better under these conditions? Or even gets close to it? No offense, but if you expect a lot more you got to find me the hardware that sells for $1000 in 2012 and can handle 4 times the data that we are discussing right now.

See I rather not get any expectations up that we can't match.

I actually think those pictures look very good for the scenes they depict. In both pictures the camera is up close to the clouds, which arguably should be the hardest kind of scene to draw accurately. But from these it's hard to get an idea of the variety of cloud types that it's capable of.

I'd be interested to see a shot from the same engine that depicts clouds from further away, particularly clouds of some of the types that FSX can't do. Like a solid overcast from above, or a massive thundercloud.

Colin

[Albrecht 9]

Traffic Density:

in FSX we can change AI traffic density.

Sparse density effects, that there is less trafic in the air and on ground AND less aircrafts standing on the airport.

I would like to have a separate density slider to see more parked (static) aircrafts (which do not affect my fps).

With my 10% density settig, I'm feeling so lonely on small airports.

Would be more realistic.

Albrecht

[harpsi 0]

Hi

One of the most important features I would like to see on the new simulator would be weather radar and terrain in all aircrafts. I see that many teams like PMDG, Level D, Airsimmer and so on are developing new aircrafts, more complex, but there are still some things that are missing in all of them, and these ones are for sure two of them. When we speak about weather radar, imediately comes the answer that it is not possible on Flight Simulator and bla bla bla...

Another issue which was never solved would be the possibility to have an afcad where one runway has one side closed for landing and the other side closed for takeoff or even for both operations or none of them. Schiphol is a good example of how you can never do a real afcad with just one file in order to reproduce all possible weather conditions.

A third issue just for now, would be possibility of pushback trucks for all AI aircrafts. It is very ugly that you can make your pushback with such a brilliant program like AES but you still have to see all other aircrafts making strange turns after pushback and before taxi.

harpsi

[Kinetika 6]

Hi Chaps (and Chapesses?):

I assume that Mathijs still hasn't completely torn his hair out and may still even have the patience to keep reading this, but a thought popped into my head the other day that i have been meaning to mention.

Friction Modelling.

One area that MSFS failed in just about all of the versions, was the modelling of friction and inertia.

As an experiment, i tried it in a PMDG 747-X the other day, and took a fully laden 744 down the shuttle strip in Florida. Basically i ramped the throttles rapidly to full, and upon hitting about 150 KIAS, pulled the throttles back to Idle. Autobrakes were set off, and i held the spoilers in their stowed position, Flaps were up. It slowed to a stop far quicker than i would have expected a real 744 to under the same circumstances.

As ever, just a bit of food for thought.

Cheers

Paul

[john lima 5]

Hi Mr Kok!

I was a little frustated thinking that You moved to a private discussion group.

I liked the screenshots. It looks very nice but I have some points:

To have a graphics like this inside a Complete VC, with AI over NY, which PC specs I would have?

My FSX has very good images at some places with Add-ons but just for taking pictures. If I want to fly the framerate goes to 5 or 7....it is unacceptable.

If you could estimate the specs with more than 20 fps to have those images (and future ones!) it will be nice!

Just to know...I migrate to FSX in the last few weeks and I´m enjoying very much! One think that I notice is that for my system CAR TRAFFIC is the most framekiller at all!

If this part is a framerate killer, keep out!

Best

Another thing that I remembered: I HATE when I~m flying from one airport to another and suddenly from a clear sky appears a thunderstorm. The problem is that FS, at my POV, doesn't simulate intermediate states from one station to another. This is terrible. Sometimes you are preparing to land and sudenly everything becomes white! but one sec ago I didn't see any clouds!! Please, solve that!

[Hiflyer 129]

I just did a complete FSX re-install (its good for the soul) and as I was playing around, I payed more attention to the interface and etc; looking at it less from a simmers perspective and trying to see it more from a complete flight newbies point of view. I have to say I came away very very impressed, especially at the VERY friendly "welcome to flight simulator" and introductory tutorials.

Thinking about it, I have never seen a detailed flight Sim more patient and warmly welcoming to newcomers while also enticing them slowly to greater rewards as they move deeper into the experience. The introductory narration also appears to reflect a keen insight into the Sims potential target audience, and my strong suspician is that this "Welcoming" atmosphere and the ability to accommodate a wide range of user types is one of the major reasons for the Sims success.

It could not hurt to sit and take a second look at them, and the quality and care that went into them.

Presentation skills of that type are probably an added financial burden to a new product, But I suspect it pays off handsomely in the attractiveness and longevity of a Sim like FSX with the general public. I hope Aerosoft give some serious thought to such "atmospheric" flourishes that work so strongly to make the Sim "warm and welcoming" to all comers.

[Guest Insurrector]

I thought a little bit about something "revolutionary" for a flightsim.

In a Flightsim you are the Airplane. ... think!

What about being a human (pilot OR passenger) inside the Airplane ?

- get it ?

Ego-perspective - see the pilot pressing the knobs etc.

This would also add the posibility to create a "passenger-mode" - Just enjoy the flight looking out of the window.

There are a bunch of people who just love to fly, not being a pilot. A playermodel with ego-view instead of annoying eyepoint-moving. Imagine wilco's Airbus Interiors with moving 3d-passengers in it...

Just to break the limits a little bit - Walk around as human, everywhere ! This makes absolutely sense to me as scenery becomes more and more accurate (thare are 7cm/pix already). you need to get closer to enjoy everything...must-be imo !

A "spotter-mode" could be added, with equipment.. a binocular or a superzoom-camera with screenshot function for example.

It's just the idea about adding a gta-like free-run mode to a flightsim. It offers the possibility to decide how you want to enjoy flying. As pilot, passenger or free-running spotter.

In a normal FS you are a big airplane with a eyepoint in it, not a pilot who's also able to walk inside and outside the plane - think about that. no 3d object of the pilot/passenger/spotter anyways. Only a eyepoint that's normally attached to the airplane.

7cm/pix photo-scenery already exists.. with detailled 3d-models.... the next step would be to add interiors for airports (as add-ons)

hope you understand my english...

[awesome 22]

I thought a little bit about something "revolutionary" for a flightsim.

In a Flightsim you are the Airplane. ... think!

What about being a human (pilot OR passenger) inside the Airplane ?

- get it ?

Ego-perspective - see the pilot pressing the knobs etc.

This would also add the posibility to create a "passenger-mode" - Just enjoy the flight looking out of the window.

There are a bunch of people who just love to fly, not being a pilot. A playermodel with ego-view instead of annoying eyepoint-moving. Imagine wilco's Airbus Interiors with moving 3d-passengers in it...

Just to break the limits a little bit - Walk around as human, everywhere ! This makes absolutely sense to me as scenery becomes more and more accurate (thare are 7cm/pix already). you need to get closer to enjoy everything...must-be imo !

A "spotter-mode" could be added, with equipment.. a binocular or a superzoom-camera with screenshot function for example.

It's just the idea about adding a gta-like free-run mode to a flightsim. It offers the possibility to decide how you want to enjoy flying. As pilot, passenger or free-running spotter.

In a normal FS you are a big airplane with a eyepoint in it, not a pilot who's also able to walk inside and outside the plane - think about that. no 3d object of the pilot/passenger/spotter anyways. Only a eyepoint that's normally attached to the airplane.

7cm/pix photo-scenery already exists.. with detailled 3d-models.... the next step would be to add interiors for airports (as add-ons)

hope you understand my english...

That's one of the greatest things posted so far! Walk to your air plane, open the door, fly away! Then land in a beautiful place and take a walk around

[Ray81 9]

I thought a little bit about something "revolutionary" for a flightsim.

In a Flightsim you are the Airplane. ... think!

What about being a human (pilot OR passenger) inside the Airplane ?

- get it ?

Ego-perspective - see the pilot pressing the knobs etc.

This would also add the posibility to create a "passenger-mode" - Just enjoy the flight looking out of the window.

There are a bunch of people who just love to fly, not being a pilot. A playermodel with ego-view instead of annoying eyepoint-moving. Imagine wilco's Airbus Interiors with moving 3d-passengers in it...

Just to break the limits a little bit - Walk around as human, everywhere ! This makes absolutely sense to me as scenery becomes more and more accurate (thare are 7cm/pix already). you need to get closer to enjoy everything...must-be imo !

A "spotter-mode" could be added, with equipment.. a binocular or a superzoom-camera with screenshot function for example.

It's just the idea about adding a gta-like free-run mode to a flightsim. It offers the possibility to decide how you want to enjoy flying. As pilot, passenger or free-running spotter.

In a normal FS you are a big airplane with a eyepoint in it, not a pilot who's also able to walk inside and outside the plane - think about that. no 3d object of the pilot/passenger/spotter anyways. Only a eyepoint that's normally attached to the airplane.

7cm/pix photo-scenery already exists.. with detailled 3d-models.... the next step would be to add interiors for airports (as add-ons)

hope you understand my english...

Hi all,

I have been watching this forum for a while now, I think it's time to share my thoughts now. Please forgive me when I mention things that are mentioned already by other people.

What I think is important for a flight simulator is immersion. You might remember Flight Unlimited, where you started inside the airport building. As the previous post mentioned, you should be a human, not an airplane. Being an airplane is good, when you have a home build cockpit, but not when playing behind a monitor with only a joystick as hardware.

So what I would like is being able to walk to your aircraft, do an inspection of it, maybe push it around a bit (for small aircraft) and fuel it at the pump. Entering the aircraft should not be a matter of clicking on the 'S' button, but should be like clicking the door open on the virtual aircraft and clicking on an 'enter area' behind the door (like a seat for example).

What I like about FSX is playing it with my headtracker and stereovision glasses. You really feel like being in the cockpit this way. So for the new sim I think it would be important to support at least a headtracker and have a correct depth for any object in the world so that stereoscopic solutions can render it correct. FSX doesn't render lights at the correct depth for example, making night flying virtually impossible while using a stereoscopic view. If you have an nVidia videocard, try to install the latest driver, enable stereoscopic rendering and use simple red-blue glasses to view the image. I assure you, you'll be impressed. Also take a look at the lighting problem while you're at it.

Another problem with stereoscopic vision and virtual cockpits is the 2d mouse cursor, this thing is always at screen depth, but the cockpit buttons are way behind. A virtual hand that exists in 3d should be able to solve this problem probably.

For third party extenders, I think it should be possible to make pushback trucks that really work. So you could push your Boeing 737 around the airport for example. Not realistic to do this as a pilot, but immersive. Maybe even linked in multiplayer, so that someone else can handle ground operations. This should not stop there, maybe it could be even made possible to control the gates, drive fuel trucks, etc. Again, the engine should only be able to handle extensions like this, it doesn't have to be included at launch time.

For third party solutions an Apple iPhone like store would be great, keeping track of your addons, licenses, etc. This should also be able to backup all bought components to a directory (external HD, flashdrive, DVD, etc). When logging on with your account on another PC, the addons should still work. (Like Windows Live Games are going to be delivered in the future). I am myself voting for subscription based service, like many MMORPG have.

This subscription should keep the navigation databases up-to-date, deliver extensions to the simulator engine, maybe even free aircraft or scenery, etc. I understand many people don't want a subscription based service though. Another solution would be the Apple store solution, so that you can buy the latest navigation database cycle, or the latest extension to the simulator engine for a few bucks for example. Maybe a hybrid solution could be made, so that people having a subscription get things for a little less than people who buy things seperately.

Being able to update the engine continueously should make the 'new version gaps' that Microsoft Flight Simulator created a thing of the past. It was really horrible to re-buy all your scenery every time a new version came out. 3rd party extenders can update their scenery for free or for a very small fee too every once in a while, keeping things up-to-date all the time.

For buying scenery from the store a feature linked to your flight planner would be great. Let's say I plan a route from A to B via C, it should come up with the scenery packages of the airports at A, B, C and everything enroute, maybe the latest navigation database, etc.

Well on the other hand I'm currently helping my nephew build a 737-800 cockpit. It would be really nice if interfaces with external hardware (like the FMC, CDU) are possible. Now we have to use FSUIPC, but I think this should be embedded, at least in the PRO version. The PRO version should also be able to disable things like being able to walk around, etc. A dome rendering option should be available in the PRO version. Also it would be great if software like Project Magenta could be bypassed and left to aircraft developers. For this the new simulator should be able to control cockpit gauges over the network. Maybe a client installation that can run only the gauges and communicate with the server could be made for this in the PRO version.

Oh and please make sure to invest in a solid framework for the simulator first and then on eye-candy, as this can always be added later. Some people won't stop complaining that it doesn't look realistic enough until you put them in a real aircraft. When you do they will probably start complaining that they don't have the time to look out the window at all, because the flying takes to much of their attention

If things are unclear or have your interest, I would be glad to discuss them over mail, PM, phone or of course on this forum

Greetings,

Raymond Groenendijk

[Pi@no 17]

I think these images are great and thanks for sharing them !

Of course they are not perfect, the textures should be a little more accurate (they are a little blurry) but for the firsts screens, it's really good.

Good luck for the project !