Should we make this a closed forum

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

I´not very impressed about this idea.

First of all: Can you explain, what is a "real" competitor for you ?

In my opinion most of the competitors are "partners" also, if you want to bring the AFS to sucsess.

Is FlyTampa a competitor because they develop scenery´s like Aerosoft? Sometimes more sucsessful than you ?

Yes, they are, but AFS will not survive very long without studios like them...

Or Austin Meyer ?

He will doing his own thing for the rest of his live.

If he decides, that aircrafts should fly backwards, X-Plane 11 will let them fly backwards...

And what dou you expect from a Member anywhere in China, Sibiria, Cayman Islands or anywhere else, who sends you a (computer generated) Fax with a "Real Identity" and a NDA ?

Or will you collect further more informations like creditcard numbers, passport numbers or biometric data to validate the identity of the members ?

Without me ...

No, if you don´t want to share some informations because it is a risk, simply don´t do it, expect all the buissness partners you really know and needed for the development.

For some good reasons i´m not willingly to strip me down to the bones in the Internet.

The Hacking of AVSIM or Hotmail shows that personal datas don´t are sure.

And it´s not worth to let validate my identity just to discuss some details of the (maybe never) upcoming Sim.

When a Beta is ready, then, and only then, i would subscribe a NDA to be part of the Team and help to improve the AFS2012.

Okay fair points (well most of them). Pretty sure you will be left out from at least some of the information as we are only willing to share part of the information at this stage with people we know a bit better then just FlyTweety. But I understand your point of view, got no problem with it. As long as you do not expect the same access as people who we trust you and I got no problem about this.

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

Mathijs, i don't know what you're worried about. Making a simulator like AFS2012 is a project that costs millions and takes a long time to develop by a devoted team. Right now, nobody else is developing a civilian flight sim like that (well except Austin Meyer ofcourse, but he's got a fully fledged sim already, and i can't see him going to this forum to nick a few ideas ), so who's going to be a threat to you? The people that frequent this forum are going to buy it anyways, and keeping us informed on the progress without having all the hassle and needless secrecy is only going to help hype the product

Anyway.. what are you afraid of? Just share what you can, and if you can't share it, then don't.

All good points, but I got a CEO and a legal department that go ape shit over things like this.

[BPL 39]

It would be nice for you to be able to share more information with us, but I don't think my parents would like for me to give out my information. I'm only 16 years old. I'd hate it if I couldn't be a part of these discussions. I've really enjoyed it. I hope you understand. I am an Aerosoft customer, and you have my dad's information. He bought the things for me at Christmas.

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

It would be nice for you to be able to share more info with us, but I don't think my parents would like for me to give out my information. I'm only 16 years old. I'd hate it if I couldn't be a part of these discussions. I've really enjoyed it. I hope you understand.

But we are not MS. I know who you are (more or less).

You got 62 posts on this forum, none of them problematic, most of them very helpful. I would be silly to exclude you, no matter what age you are.

[BPL 39]

But we are not MS. I know who you are (more or less).

You got 62 posts on this forum, none of them problematic, most of them very helpful. I would be silly to exclude you, no matter what age you are.

Thanks, Mathijs.

[Garry J. Smith 1]

<LI>I concur with the concept of a closed forum when it is in relation to a project development with far reaching concepts and definitely has some financial obligations and expectation.

However, you also need to have an open area totally available to everyone simply to keep them appraised on what is happening - generating interest and even generating input and suggestions. Close it off and you will limit scope and possible kill the project through lack of interest.

Therefore, might I recommend that this forum area stay alive - allow anyone to view, comment and maintain interest etc.

However then create a "Developers" level area that is for "invited" members only. You can kill a lot of birds with the one stone this way.

Firstly only invite those that you do know and trust to participate in the forum with meaningful user-names and a unique password for that account.

As it is a "by invitation" concept you will be able to dynamically add/remove membership as and if they become valuable resources for the development of the project.

Part of the membership would be that the member accepts certain conditions - declared on that forum and agreed to by accepting membership - this is legally binding without the need of an NDA as long as the NDA concepts are clearly defined as a requirement to be a member. And that it is binding if a member no longer continues in the forum for whatever reason.

Most importantly, you, as the invitee, will have assessed the credibility and value of the member before sending the invitation to join.

Keeping the list of Developer members private will ensure that those who are not members will not know of the Developers area and of the Developers privileges. Therefore no friction from non-members.

Many other advantages to having an exclusive forum area are easily identified so wont continue to expound them.

So in a nutshell - (1) leave this forum running - keeping general information flowing to the public, and (2) Create a new Developers forum - hidden and only accessible to Developers who have been assessed and then invited to participate.

That is my two bobs worth - hope it helps.

Regards

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

Well based on the almost what... hmm... almpst $500 I have spent on Aerosoft products, you have my name, credit card information, address information, and IP addresses. I have no problem signing a NDA but that has to come with something like beta testing and being to actually see the progress of the project or something like that. What more information would you want from me? Are you not able to match me (newmanix) with who I really am based on all the purchases I have made here?

This is me right here: http://www.youtube.c.../35/jjeyDi7j3V8

There you go...

newmanix

Forgot something yesterday, though we do have your email address (and in most cases a house address) we do not have Credit Card numbers. When you enter that you are actually on the banks page, not ours. We have no need for the number, we only need to know if the transtaction is okay or not.

[FlyTweety 0]

Okay fair points (well most of them). Pretty sure you will be left out from at least some of the information as we are only willing to share part of the information at this stage with people we know a bit better then just FlyTweety. But I understand your point of view, got no problem with it. As long as you do not expect the same access as people who we trust you and I got no problem about this.

Fair points too.

I´m still not sure, what should be the benifit of that NDA Area ?

Just to satisfy the curiosity ?

Garry J. Smith found far better words than me (my english is still to rusty)

There should be two Areas: The open one and the Area of the "usefull" members.

"Usefull" means, that this Area should contain Members, which are helpfull to develop the best Sim ever builded.

Most of them developers i guess, but also experienced "user only" Simmer for example, who has other significant skills and their opinions are significant for you too.

I mean : That user group should be people you know and you respect (and that include that you are able to trust them), not some "freaks" who just subscribe a NDA simply to satisfy their couriousity.

And Garry is right: YOU should invite them, instead of let them shout "here, here, here, take me, take me"

By the way

You would know "FlyTweety" much better by studing several Forums than a NDA ever can help you .

Or try to remember that guy with that impressing good looking woman at his side, that was standing next to you in Paderborn at the RoF display

[LH4371 58]

We got a problem... we do not know who reads this forum and we are constricted by that. If we would know who reads and comments (meaning real names) we would be able to share a lot more information. So here is an idea.

How about we close this forum for standard users and only make it visible for people who signed an NDA (so we know how you are and that you are not working for a competitor etc). It would mean faxing us something that you signed and something that links you as a person to forum user, but it would make this forum section a lot more useable for both us and the customers. So would you be put off if we ask you to identify yourself?

I can perfectly understand your CEO and legal. Go ahead. I would do the same if I were about to invest a reasonable amount of money, specially in the light of the old ACES team forming their own studio.

Phil

P.S. Yes, you also have my credit card information from online purchases.

[James A 39]

P.S. Yes, you also have my credit card information from online purchases.

You obviously did not read Mathijs's reply fully two posts above yours

[Annasara 1]

For a developing product I'm ok with a closed forum, even some sort of NDA if I get to see some of the nice stuff before release. Those interested can easily register and show that they are sincere in their interest. What I really dislike, is when a "normal" support or discussion forum is readable only by members.

There are different kinds of forums, some where I prefer posting anonymously, some where I'm ok with stating my name. Since some of the big communities in simming are verbally slamming you over the head if you use a nickname, most of us are connectible with a name.

This is my first post here, but I have often found these forums to be very informative and helpful. The atmosphere is relaxed and there is generally little of verbal extremism. There are other forums where I would never state my real name, not because of being afraid of being recognised, but because I don't want people to connect all the dots that hold up my life. For me I want the possibility to be at least partially anonymous, basically because I'm not Mrs Smith, but have a relatively uncommon name. This does not mean I wouldn't give my full name to the admins as identification, if needed.

Annasara

[clay 0]

I mean im fine with it aerosoft aready has mine from when i bought some products.

[StORM48 4]

I have no problem with the NDA and personal identification, if we can expect some more info or even partial influence on the simulator features itself :)

Beta testing included as well. 

Best regards, Dragan

P.S. Where should I sign? 

[Robert Halmich 8]

I would like to be part of a discussion group that has limited accessibility in a special forum, why? Because I have been using FS since the first incarnation back in the '80's and have quite a bit of experience using, organizing and modifying the sim. I think without a doubt that anyone who has used FS or has experience with a computer would add invaluable expertise.

I have a problem with discussion that only invited people be allowed into the forum, so what is the criteria? One person said that it should be open to people that "we know" and that way no "freak" will access the forum. I just posted for the first time in the last week, so you don't know me but does that make me a "freak"? I am known to Aerosoft because I have purchased products from the online store, and by the way, I am the one that has posted with my real name and included a real picture in my profile.

I have been a respected forum user since July of 2003 at Avsim (maxam66) with over 500 posts, have never been banned or warned about misconduct. So keep in mind that others who learn of the new project without any history at Aerosoft may want to join in on the discussion, the outcome being a great sim. Just as Mr. Kok said he had 1 experience where he had to enforce the NDA on a project.

I have no problem with whatever solution is developed to make the special forum a safe place to discuss the proposed sim but there should be certain criteria in place such as using real names and continued involvement should be based on ones merit.

Regards,

Robert

[FlyTweety 0]

I have a problem with discussion that only invited people be allowed into the forum, so what is the criteria? One person said that it should be open to people that "we know" and that way no "freak" will access the forum. I just posted for the first time in the last week, so you don't know me but does that make me a "freak"?

Oops, this is adressed to me

No, sorry, this is a misunderstanding.

To be unknown in several Forums don´t mean, that anyone is a "freak" of course.

"Freaks" in the worst case instead are frequently well known guys, you can find them in each and every Forum.

Maybe Freak is the wrong word, lets try "Nerds", "plague"... you know, that kind of senior masters, who knows everything better .

Mostly their real Identity is unknown (also for good reasons), but here they can invite themself in that "inner circle".

Do Aerosoft like to have that situation ?

Also: As long as Aerosoft is not able to proof each and every adress and identity all over the world, a FAX with a NDA is senseless.

So, what is it good for?

Mathjies has not really explained, what shall be the sense of that "Area 51" NDA Zone.

Is it the discussing of ideas for the Aerosoft Sim ?

That happend in a free atmosphere here in the past month, without any restrictions.

Is it to find the best solutions for a special Detail in the Development ?

This is a Job for many Experts, but there is no word about "Experts"in Matjies question, but only a wanted NDA.

So i am unsure what will be the benifit for letting the pants fall.

I have been a respected forum user since July of 2003 at Avsim (maxam66) with over 500 posts, have never been banned or warned about misconduct.

This happens many of us .

And the very most has a Forum in a foreign language as their "Home" Forum.

In my case mostly German Forums, though i got a AVSIM account as well.

So, basically we are all "aliens" in the Scene .

But nevertheless more and more Developers met the guy behind "FlyTweety" already and that means, more and more i´m turning from a silent User into a "usefull" Member of that Scene, but still totally unknown.

And i enjoy that privacy.

But this is my own decission.

[wyoming 2]

Sure.

[Earthscapeone 2]

I'm sorry, but I don't like the idea about basing involvement one one's supposed "merit." Several people have stated they wanted only options in the sim that are of interest to specifically them, not thinking about what that would mean for everyone else, or the viability of the product to sell to a large customer base. These elitist ideas need to be dropped. Some people definitely have more technical experience than others, and some may have quite a lot of flying experience, and their ideas clearly can have great value. The whole point of Aerosoft having forums like this is that, unlike many of their competitors, they actually really listen to the needs and wants of their customers. The suggestion that some should be kept out of the discussion because they are somehow not worthy completely flies in the face of that concept. Case in point, I personally don't have very much technical expertise regarding flight sims, but I know that right here I am making an important and valuable point. Non-experts still know what they want and need, and Aerosoft will only be helped by hearing their voices, precisely because anyone who is actually going to take the time to post on a forum like this is the type of person that will be interested in being a future customer of Aerosoft.

That said, use of an NDA and gathering enough information about a person to enable enforcement of that NDA simply makes business sense if Aerosoft is to discuss matter that is in any way proprietary in the forums. There could possibly be certain topics discussed in non-restricted forums for people that don't want to sign a NDA that do not contain proprietary discussions, which would be up to people like Mathijis.

Walter

[Patrick O. 18]

I'm sorry, but I don't like the idea about basing involvement one one's supposed "merit." Several people have stated they wanted only options in the sim that are of interest to specifically them, not thinking about what that would mean for everyone else, or the viability of the product to sell to a large customer base. These elitist ideas need to be dropped. Some people definitely have more technical experience than others, and some may have quite a lot of flying experience, and their ideas clearly can have great value. The whole point of Aerosoft having forums like this is that, unlike many of their competitors, they actually really listen to the needs and wants of their customers. The suggestion that some should be kept out of the discussion because they are somehow not worthy completely flies in the face of that concept. Case in point, I personally don't have very much technical expertise regarding flight sims, but I know that right here I am making an important and valuable point. Non-experts still know what they want and need, and Aerosoft will only be helped by hearing their voices, precisely because anyone who is actually going to take the time to post on a forum like this is the type of person that will be interested in being a future customer of Aerosoft.

That said, use of an NDA and gathering enough information about a person to enable enforcement of that NDA simply makes business sense if Aerosoft is to discuss matter that is in any way proprietary in the forums. There could possibly be certain topics discussed in non-restricted forums for people that don't want to sign a NDA that do not contain proprietary discussions, which would be up to people like Mathijis.

Walter

Took the words right out of my mouth. I personally don't have any technical experience in this area (i.e. no merit), but I do know what some people want from a new simulator.

I definitely agree that two forums are in order (NDA and non-NDA). Why? Because my Dad might or might not be willing to let me sign an NDA. If he doesn't, I still would like the chance to be a part of flight simulation history. Please consider carefully.

[newmanix 61]

Forgot something yesterday, though we do have your email address (and in most cases a house address) we do not have Credit Card numbers. When you enter that you are actually on the banks page, not ours. We have no need for the number, we only need to know if the transtaction is okay or not.

Ah, that makes sence. Well draw up the NDA, i'll take a gander and we can go from there. I don't at this point, see a reason not to sign it.

[Patrick O. 18]

Right. I think actually seeing the NDA would give us more to work with. Then we can decide whether or not we like it.

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

Okay, thanks for you input. We have decided to indeed create a 'higher level' that will only be available to people who are willing to sign an NDA. I like to get across that this is very rare for a commercial project, normally customers are not involved in this stage. But I really feel very strong about this.

Later this week you will find a post here about how this will progress.