Topic: Navigation Database

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

FSX has a crummy navigation database that was way outdated when the sim launched. We intend to include a far better database (including SIDs, STARs and Transitions) and allow the database to be up-datable. This database should in AIRAC format and should be available for all aircaft and add-ons removing the need to update databases per aircraft.

We are talking to several partners about this right now. What are topics we should not forget?

[pepegoesdigital 23]

FSX has a crummy navigation database that was way outdated when the sim launched. We intend to include a far better database (including SIDs, STARs and Transitions) and allow the database to be up-datable. This database should in AIRAC format and should be available for all aircaft and add-ons removing the need to update databases per aircraft.

We are talking to several partners about this right now. What are topics we should not forget?

Nice. :-)

Have you thought about runway alignments changing over time due to magnetic declination?

For example the Runway 06/24 in Cologne was 07/25 until a couple of years ago.

So if you want to replicate that perfectly, the runway should be be able to turn, even if it's only by one degree...

Could be a tricky one, with a runway system that has crossing runways (like Cologne has).

pepe

[Guest CFG278]

don't forget to include the missed approach procedures ...

[HansW 28]

Boundaries?

[riccardo74 2]

This database should in AIRAC format and should be available for all aircaft and add-ons removing the need to update databases per aircraft.

Fantastic, one update for all add-ons. Good and right decision!

[nfinger 3]

Navigation Database should include real world air routes coupled with a good flight planner. Flight planner may be another topic though.

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

Nice. :-)

Have you thought about runway alignments changing over time due to magnetic declination?

For example the Runway 06/24 in Cologne was 07/25 until a couple of years ago.

So if you want to replicate that perfectly, the runway should be be able to turn, even if it's only by one degree...

Could be a tricky one, with a runway system that has crossing runways (like Cologne has).

pepe

The runway does not change, the magnetic pole does. And our sim will allow that. Every year we'll send a new 'pole' file that has the north in a different location. Of course runway markings are easier to update.

[Paul K 93]

I do all my navigation by NDB, VORs etc. As long as we have all that, I'll be happy.

[limacharlie5500 20]

Nowadays, a navigational database updates the ILS frequencies in, for example, a PMDG FMC. But take Zurich for example: The ILS 28 is not included in the standard scenery. So even though the FMC knows the right frequency, you can't fly the approach, because the ILS is missing in the scenery BGL file. Or Frankfurt: The ILS frequency has recently changed, but even the Mega Airport Scenery still has the old one. Now my FMC autotunes the ILS frequency during the approach, taking that info from the FMC and current navigational data. But since the scenery BGL file has an old frequency, this autotune feature isn't working.

So maybe link Navdata to Navaids.bgl

[Alexander Wurz 42]

I would recommend, that the Navigation Database should be able to get automatic NAT updates via the Internet. So that a included Flightplanner ( I think there should be one) can do routes via acutal NAT's

[pepegoesdigital 23]

The runway does not change, the magnetic pole does. And our sim will allow that. Every year we'll send a new 'pole' file that has the north in a different location. Of course runway markings are easier to update.

Excellent.

That was exactly what I meant, although I phrased it badly. :-)

[Jan-Paul Schuchna 24]

Hi Mathijs,

there is a small typo in your first posting I think :

It should read "ARINC-424" instead of AIRAC.

Jan-Paul

[wedge 5]

That's great, I had just talked about this idea a few days ago, don't know if it had any ipact, it might have been a known thing. But that's really the thought that I had, that the navigation data should be all at the center of the sim and accessible for both additional third party planes, as well as first party. They should also have of course all the data, including SID,STAR,IAC, Missed Approach, Holds, and so on, as they are obviously needed by the sim if you want top put out a really good ATC that is able to do more than giving you vectors to intercept the ILS or let you go in Visual, and letting airplanes with almost no vertical or lateral separation. That is definitely the most important point and it should be of course the source for both your navigation, the flight planner, and also for the placement of the VOR/NDB, ILS in the sim as they are obviously perfectly linked together. The scenery shoud be made in such way that it matches the navaids, and not put their own navaids separetely which can lead I think to petty wrong stuff, as the aircraft would go for a point that might not be at the expected place and get some trouble when switching from FMS navigation to traditional radio navigation. And of course that means that the scenery have to be really good when created by third party.

[eric_marciano 0]

FSX has a crummy navigation database that was way outdated when the sim launched. We intend to include a far better database (including SIDs, STARs and Transitions) and allow the database to be up-datable. This database should in AIRAC format and should be available for all aircaft and add-ons removing the need to update databases per aircraft.

We are talking to several partners about this right now. What are topics we should not forget?

As a developer in the FeelThere team, I have been using the FeelThere database (updated by Navigraph) for several projects. It is complete, but it is not opitmized: some information are redundant, which makes the database quite big. But what I like about this database is that... it is REALLY a database (MS Access) that you can query using SQL. It makes code much simpler than having to fetch a text file.

IMHO, your navigation database should be usable with SQL, or any other query language that makes the data access easy.

Eric

[wedge 5]

on my side I would say I do believe a database is a good idea, I really do not believe using access is the best way, mdb is not very powerfull, and I do believe that while there is a lot of Data, database is not really so important, datas are not so huge and heavily used. In anyway as long as the system is opened nothing prevents third party developers to build a tool that will convert the source data in their own system, this would still be the best as it would still be one update of the navigational database, and then the addon wanting another format can just rebuild the database from the updated source.

I don't know so much avbout the complexity of databases, but I do think maybe checking how the real computers works in airplane would be a nice idea.

[eric_marciano 0]

on my side I would say I do believe a database is a good idea, I really do not believe using access is the best way, mdb is not very powerfull, and I do believe that while there is a lot of Data, database is not really so important, datas are not so huge and heavily used. In anyway as long as the system is opened nothing prevents third party developers to build a tool that will convert the source data in their own system, this would still be the best as it would still be one update of the navigational database, and then the addon wanting another format can just rebuild the database from the updated source.

I don't know so much avbout the complexity of databases, but I do think maybe checking how the real computers works in airplane would be a nice idea.

I was not saying mdb (MS Access format) is good, I was saying it is enough to provide an SQL accessibility, which is good. But you're right, as long as a database exists, converting it from a format to another (if necessary) should be easy.

Eric

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

As a developer in the FeelThere team, I have been using the FeelThere database (updated by Navigraph) for several projects. It is complete, but it is not opitmized: some information are redundant, which makes the database quite big. But what I like about this database is that... it is REALLY a database (MS Access) that you can query using SQL. It makes code much simpler than having to fetch a text file.

IMHO, your navigation database should be usable with SQL, or any other query language that makes the data access easy.

Eric

Eric I am not fully up to date on this, but I see your logic. Thanks.

[Deniz 6]

Hi Mathijs

It would be nice if you could include enroute charts with the AIRACs, kinda like the service navigraph offers :

http://www.navigraph...age_listing.asp

Could you include a SID/STAR editor too, for the smaller airports ?

Deniz

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

Hi Mathijs

It would be nice if you could include enrouche charts with the AIRACs, kinda like the service navigraph offers :

http://www.navigraph...age_listing.asp

Could you include a SID/STAR editor too, for the smaller airports ?

Deniz

Charts are another topic I need to start looking at soon. It's a complex project, lol.

[wedge 5]

I think the charts would be possible, I mean even FSX does it, though the navdata it uses are not the best, they have already the airways visible by slecting them. I just think though that the interface needs quite some work so that it could be fully used. As for airport charts I think it would require quite a lot of work as they can be quite heavy in data, and as there are already that many possibility to get them, knowing the procedure and hteir points would be more than enough I think.

[Cathy Howat 0]

Taxi charts for the airports, or SOME sort of taxi aid apart from the FSX arrows(which on my sim don't work at Gander!) would be great, and a really good ATC engine that gives proper ATC instructions would be even better:rolleyes:

[schmiefel 1]

Just a small notice - correct me if I am wrong: But what about some kind of a NOTAM system - though it is not really necessary for correct navigation it maybe very useful in multiplayer online sessions, e.g. some like doing aerobatic or train for formation flights in a certain terrain or even when doing something like a virtual airshow with a dedicated airspace you need to inform participants or other aircraft in the airspace around about the necessary rules and other information...

Regards Michael

[weafaeryhsdfgzdfghdfhg 3]

If you're going to have updating navigation databases, then that means something like "SIMcharts", out of date real world charts which are up to date for the Flight Sim, isn't going to be good enough. You need up to date real world charts, which update with new cycles. I know different people have their different preferred charts, some, like me, prefer Jeppesen, others are more NACO people. In any case, I think it's very important to take into account charts. Even if we're going to be flying all our procedures via PMDG style FMC's, it's still vital practice to use the charts as well as FMCs. For people like me, who fly online and want up to date charts, printed out ready to go, we either need to print them all out for every airport we're going to be flying to, which after a while gets cumbersome and annoying and expensive, or purchase them as though we were going to be using them for real world purposes, also expensive. The soloution is simple. A kneeboard which allows easy acess charts for any airport in the world wherever you are- up to date!!!

With regards to a Flight Sim in-flight map, like the one you see when you select "World-map" in the FSX menu, I think it should be layed out in several ways:

1. The basic way, accessable to anyone- like the current Flight Sim map.
2. Like a sectional chart
3. Like an IFR low enroute chart
4. Like an IFR high enroute chart

And you could select which option you'd want, and also use the map to view airport's charts, unlike current Flight Sims where you only get very basic data.

Of course, when getting into the legal issues which have been mentioned before, I think, it probably is easier said than done. But I still think it's really worth looking into, as it will be useful to many serious IFR simmers.

Thanks, and good luck with the project!

Natty

[Sander Olsthoorn 3]

It maybe a very difficult thing to implement in the simulator but it would be as real as possible.

What if it's possible to implement real world NOTAM's into the simulator. So if in real world for example taxiway A12 is closed on EHAM because of construction works it would automatical be closed in the simulator. Problem would be that the amount of NOTAM's that need to be checked is simply huge, a automated system should be created but that should be possible (got some ideas in my head )

Regards,

Sander

[Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558]

If you're going to have updating navigation databases, then that means something like "SIMcharts", out of date real world charts which are up to date for the Flight Sim, isn't going to be good enough. You need up to date real world charts, which update with new cycles. I know different people have their different preferred charts, some, like me, prefer Jeppesen, others are more NACO people. In any case, I think it's very important to take into account charts. Even if we're going to be flying all our procedures via PMDG style FMC's, it's still vital practice to use the charts as well as FMCs. For people like me, who fly online and want up to date charts, printed out ready to go, we either need to print them all out for every airport we're going to be flying to, which after a while gets cumbersome and annoying and expensive, or purchase them as though we were going to be using them for real world purposes, also expensive. The soloution is simple. A kneeboard which allows easy acess charts for any airport in the world wherever you are- up to date!!!

With regards to a Flight Sim in-flight map, like the one you see when you select "World-map" in the FSX menu, I think it should be layed out in several ways:

1. The basic way, accessable to anyone- like the current Flight Sim map.
2. Like a sectional chart
3. Like an IFR low enroute chart
4. Like an IFR high enroute chart

And you could select which option you'd want, and also use the map to view airport's charts, unlike current Flight Sims where you only get very basic data.

Of course, when getting into the legal issues which have been mentioned before, I think, it probably is easier said than done. But I still think it's really worth looking into, as it will be useful to many serious IFR simmers.

Thanks, and good luck with the project!

Natty

It is indeed easier said then done, lol. The idea we are now considering is to keep the whole system very open. For example using pure SQL databases for most things, to describe them thoroughly in the SDK.

That means that we deliver an initial database (nav data/some charts etc) and that people can use 3rd party sources to be updated. It seems near impossible to sell the product for 60 Euro and then deliver the databases on the 28 day cycle used most.