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A New Simulator (June edition)


Staffan

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  • Aerosoft
In my opinion a civilain and a military flight simulation are two very different things and I do not for a second believe that the two could somehow be merged into one.

For one thing a military sim requires whole theatre of war management where battle scenarios for land, sea and air are put together and executed from (excuse the pun). Add in things like real time battle damage which affects flight performance (very system intensive and takes a lot of dev time); all the various (and highly complicated) weapons and their respective guidance systems (fire and forget/gps/laser guided air to air missles as just one example); all the various miltary radars (both on land and in the air) and you can quickly see why the merging of a civ and a military flight sim has not already happened a long time ago.

Correct me if I am wrong but was the F-16 Falcon series manual not a huge 500+ page affair? Back in the day when such big manuals actually came in the box. And that was just for one aircraft and most of it was taken up with complicated radar targeting and weapons deployment instructions etc if I remember correctly.

And you guys want the above all mixed in with a civilian flight sim where one can just as happily fly a PMDG 747-400 from one mega airport into another one? Or do low level VFR flights over 60GB of photoreal scenery (and this is just one country's worth!) in something like the PBY Catalina using 4096 cloud textures?

Not gonna happen gents!

Why not? A good flightsim is strangely enough not so complex. It's a platform that others can build and as long as we keep it really open there should be no problem adding nearly anything.

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Why not? A good flightsim is strangely enough not so complex. It's a platform that others can build and as long as we keep it really open there should be no problem adding nearly anything.

I guess my concern is that we end up with a sim that is fine at being both a civilian sim and a campaign driven military sim but does not excel at being either. Another concern is performance. Take your F-16 for FSX - would you be able to code in the Falcon4 equivalent systems fidelity + equip it with modern and fully functional weapons + have it all work within a dynamic campaign with who knows how many other hundreds of AI air/ground/sea units + have all this happening over VFR Germany (or any other high res addon scenery) and perhaps within range of a Mega Airport? Throw in some weather and perhaps a few online buddies in their own F-16's and what do you end up with?

Having said all that I am all for some sort of extension to the "combat" capabilities of a civilian sim. For example being able to practice bombing runs in my P-47 over Area 51 with explosions and realistic shock waves and all the resultant damage one can then inspect from the air. There is a lot which could be done through innovative addons in this regard but to have a full dynamic campaign mode and all that is required to make a "war" work built-in inside a civilian sim? I don't know, just sounds a bit too much for one sim to handle...

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Personally I'm more of a 'military' simmer (although I also spend a lot of fine hours on MS FS). But I partly agree with the comment that if you try to combine the two different genres, you might and up with a product that isn't great in either department. That said look at the colleagues of 1C who are currently finishing their new engine, where they have literally digitally shaped every modelled part (or atleast looking at the screens now it seems they did). They are claiming that people will be able to include new planes etc. also cars are included that are driveable. Idea: Make sure that you can construct a virtual plane, with different parts like you do in realife.( example: http://www.simhq.com/_air11/images/air_341a_012L.jpg)

Their will be "Trolls" who will find it funny to shoot a civil plane flown by someone out of the sky while on-line. My suggestions therefore to set up atleast two servers, where one server is civil, where weapons are moddeled but can't do any damage. And an other world where they can (imagine that their will be also transport guys wanting to fly in war dominated world, with the constant danger of being shotdown) Idea: seperate "war" and "civil" servers

lastly one thing that shouldn't be overlooked in case it is chosen to include a dynamic war campaign is teamwork within a plane like simulated in B17 II from wayward. in this sim every crewmember had character and could experience fear, unexperience in navigating etc. I literally made hundereds of hours in that sim because you were not only flying only a plane but also trying to keep your team together in though conditions. Include: Teamanagment, so that you create a emotional bond with your team onboard.

lastly if the business model is viable try to Coöporate with companies like 1C Maddox and Digital Simulations because they already have a lot experience in building (upgradable) engines.

like said before: make a Sim not a game

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And you will update that engine to DX11 and multicore support?

Is that a job offer?

I did wrote Pushback for Fly! and would be happy to thread Fly! II but I don't do graphics so you will need to find someone else for the DX task. :-)

My assumption is that there isn't already a FS engine on the table here and you are considering a scratch project. If that's the case, then I suppose one could argue that the Fly! II base is too old and that a C# core would be the way to go. You would make your Mac market a whole lot harder to satify with C# though.

Tim

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All great discussions here!

Combined Military and Civilian Flight Simulator

A full campaign management system may not be the answer for a complete flight simulation package in the scenario that I described. I was almost prompted to write as I noticed my Falcon 4.0 binder sitting on the shelf. Yes, it is old and large and I can't remember what year it was when I last used it, so definitely the graphics engine from this very program would not be the answer either.

Airspace management (Restricted Airspace and Military Operations Area)

I'll try not to repeat the issue too much, but improved airspace management would be another preference for a new flight simulator. In FS you can fly anywhere at all times of the day or night. We all know this is not the case in reality.

The previous comments about Area 51 is a great point. What if in the next generation of Flight Simulation you cannot fly into restricted airspace without AI fighters interdicting you/escorting you away from the airspace? The AI fighter could possibly command you to change course or destroy your aircraft due to your non-compliance. Has anyone considered enhancing MOAs with AI military aircraft flying?

Periodic Airfield Maintenance

Now that I have broached the subject of impossibilities... FS airport systems and runways never degrade or close. Perhaps consider a few conditions which force modified airfield operations such as damage to runway, taxiway, lights, communication, or navigation systems, based on theoretic AI and user activity.

These conditions could be identified in NOTAMS as part of the flight planning process for certain airports.

:excl: (SLOC Explosion) :excl:

Keith

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FSX has mapped the world very well. It is detailed enough to map the pond in my neighborhood! So thats their strong suit. However, here are some things that need to be improved that few people have mentioned.

1. Better transitions between day and night, and vise versa!(Lights gradually turning off or on)

2. Horrizon mesh improvement for cities. (see attachments)

post-26500-1246410700_thumb.jpg

fs11_2.bmp

3. More realistic transitions from road-to-grass-to-building (no more houses sitting on roads)

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On the topic of technology: MS was clearly aiming at a dual release of DX10 in Windows Vista and FSX to showcase and sell more Windows Vistas. Because of delays this didnt happen. The hype of "never before seen graphics on Vista / FSX with DX10", didnt happen. However if MS made new Flight Simulator with say "DirectX12", could they hold back "DirectX12" to prevent the competition from going ahead? Or even worse are they likely to restrict newer DirectX versions to only Windows 7 (or later), so developers using state of the art DX technology will get less installed base / sales? How are the capabilities of OpenGL vs DX? Maybe OpenGL would be the better choice if MS uses DX strategically?

On the topic of scenery: I wish you made the 10TB worldwide scenery! When separated into many addon-packages, then I could perhaps buy a portion of europe in a multi-disc bluray-package and live a happy life where scenery was as good as it gets and quality-consistent. But I guess that's fiction for now.

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3 Main wishes:

1) much better weather (see Flight unlimited III to see what should happen when you fly through a CB - also proper wind/turbulence effects). WX is the most challenging part of aviation.

2) don't worry too much about ATC. I am an ATCO, and I can gaurantee you that that there are already some very good addons out there (Radar Contact). As long as they are able to develop for you that would be fine.

3) PLEASE keep 2D panels. For big jet IFR flying you cannot beat a 2D multimonitor setup.

Thanks

Neil

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All great discussions here!

Combined Military and Civilian Flight Simulator

A full campaign management system may not be the answer for a complete flight simulation package in the scenario that I described. I was almost prompted to write as I noticed my Falcon 4.0 binder sitting on the shelf. Yes, it is old and large and I can't remember what year it was when I last used it, so definitely the graphics engine from this very program would not be the answer either.

Airspace management (Restricted Airspace and Military Operations Area)

I'll try not to repeat the issue too much, but improved airspace management would be another preference for a new flight simulator. In FS you can fly anywhere at all times of the day or night. We all know this is not the case in reality.

The previous comments about Area 51 is a great point. What if in the next generation of Flight Simulation you cannot fly into restricted airspace without AI fighters interdicting you/escorting you away from the airspace? The AI fighter could possibly command you to change course or destroy your aircraft due to your non-compliance. Has anyone considered enhancing MOAs with AI military aircraft flying?

Periodic Airfield Maintenance

Now that I have broached the subject of impossibilities... FS airport systems and runways never degrade or close. Perhaps consider a few conditions which force modified airfield operations such as damage to runway, taxiway, lights, communication, or navigation systems, based on theoretic AI and user activity.

These conditions could be identified in NOTAMS as part of the flight planning process for certain airports.

:excl: (SLOC Explosion) :excl:

Keith

Perfect.

The group that fly with run a open server and you have to call in to ATC prior to taxi after full ramp start F-16 Very realistic would be great to tune into civi transport radio to hear what is going on around us. And to pass a 747-400 say g'day :) All good idea's

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Civil and military simulations can be two deriviatives of the same basic software I guess. While one combined product is preferrable, two simular products between which, for example, aircraft and sceneries can be exchanged, would also be a good compromise.

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I´d just want to say that I think You guys are doing the right thing, and I think that you´re doing it the right way..

This could be good.. Very good...

My main wishes would be:

Much more realistic world, as mentioned hundreds of times in the threads already..

Realistic all 3D-clouds with an overcast that does not look like a bad joke.

More moving, dynamic scenery, cars, people, animals etc. All able to interact with the aircraft damage model.

Also totally dynamic lightning, making the aircrafts reflect the light that shine upon them, day or night.

Better ATC/AI performance: With SIDs/STARs and different runways for takeoff/landing. ATC that speaks much more fluently and FASTER! Also regional accents would be a nice touch.

More realistic flight model. With a more complex damage model, more moving parts (yes even the wings of a B737 does flex...) etc etc...

I hope for the best! ;) Good Luck!

//Johan

Oh.. P.S.

Screw a military simulator!!!!!!!!!

There is way too much tension in the world now as it is..

+1!!!!

If people want to fly military missions, let them do that in a standalone simulator, designated for this.

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Maybe you could talk to Simon Hradecky at SimPilot.net.

He released Airline Simulator 2 years ago (the flight model for which has never been beaten - it nearly reaches commercial levels).

He has been working on AS3 for years now.

Just a thought.

Neil

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I posted earlier about the texture of grass airstrips, but I didn't think to mention this. Some grass runways are just strips mowed into a field, so the grass in the field surrounding the runway is higher than the grass on the runway. I'm not sure if you could do this in the sim, but it would look very realistic. This may be the look that MS was trying to achieve in FSX, but it doesn't look very good because the grass around the runway isn't higher, it's just a different color.

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If people want to fly military missions, let them do that in a standalone simulator, designated for this.

I'm pretty sure that many people that purchased the aerosoft F-16 and A-10 would love to have the capacity to fire and blow something up. It's not to be aerosoft's task to include a full military simulator along with a civilian simulator. All I, and many others that could grasp the idea, want is to have a very detailed collision detection engine and the possibility of a very moddable and open code so others could make military addons or make combat planes that can be deployed in military tasks all over the world. That would be so freakin' cool.

With hard work and some military simulation variables (IR radars, aircraft's heat signature, Radar cross section simulation, etc) this simulator will definetly excel at civil flight and achieve a fair and decent combat simulation.

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This is very good news. Not much has been said about hardware except that it will be DX10 and multicore. There was mention that future versions of Flight Simulator (when it had a future) would make use of GPU processing power. Usually a new version of FS means a processor upgrade, which requires a motherboard upgrade and probably a more powerful PSU while we're at it, etc.. Leveraging GPU power (which is grossly underused in FSX) would not only increase performance, but make the upgrade path much cheaper and simpler.

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  • Aerosoft
What is the planned development tool for this sim? With the introduction of FSX the window of freeware development seemed to get smaller. Gmax is no longer supported by it's developer so my question is pretty much what is going to be the tool of choice? Obviously not everyone can afford 3DS Max so what are the choices. I remember the talk about FSXI not having gmax support. We all know that one of the things that made MSFS successful was all the freeware development. It was a sim for everyone, from people like me that constantly buy addons to younger folks that depend on freeware to enjoy the sim because they can't afford the addons.

Yes, important topic.

The problem is that 'simple' tools like GMax simply do not support everything that's needed and certainly get into problems with more complex models. Let's put it this way, there is no way that a project like our Catalina could be done in Gmax. But if we choose OpenFlight as our 'format' there are dozens of tools and loads of compilers that will do the trick.

But just as you need a pixel editor that can handle layers in photoshop format right now for any repaint, free and simple tools will most likely not work for our new sim. Those days are simply behind us and other then dumming down the sim there is no way around that. Most likely you will need a 3d tool that can export to 3dmax and a pixel editor that can export photoshop layered files you will be seriously slowed down. But just download fotografix and you'll see what's possible. That's a killer bit of software that stopped me loading photoshop on startup of my system.

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  • Aerosoft
My assumption is that there isn't already a FS engine on the table here and you are considering a scratch project.

Tim

No that would be silly. There are many game engines around now that got amazing options. Creating one from scratch would add 2 years and 2 million Euro to the project.

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  • Aerosoft
Maybe you could talk to Simon Hradecky at SimPilot.net.

He released Airline Simulator 2 years ago (the flight model for which has never been beaten - it nearly reaches commercial levels).

He has been working on AS3 for years now.

Just a thought.

Neil

Simon? Been to his place just weeks ago, who do you think is paying for the development of AS3 right now?

AS3, Pilot Flying as it will be officially called will be released by us, but it only slightly related to this project. It is yet another project we are working on right now. Aerosoft Flight Simulator, AS3, Rise of Flight, you see why I don't get much sleep?

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  • Aerosoft
Periodic Airfield Maintenance

Now that I have broached the subject of impossibilities... FS airport systems and runways never degrade or close. Perhaps consider a few conditions which force modified airfield operations such as damage to runway, taxiway, lights, communication, or navigation systems, based on theoretic AI and user activity.

These conditions could be identified in NOTAMS as part of the flight planning process for certain airports.

Keith

Well, check this: http://www.forum.aerosoft.com/index.php?showtopic=27225

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  • 5 weeks later...

While I think everyones comments are terrific, I find that most of them are aimed at very specific aspects of FSX and FS9. Microsoft did well with those but step back and look at the application as a whole...

FSX and FS9 does not do anything whatsoever on its own unless you have the creativity to randomly select flights or you join a group etc. From a marketing perspective if you can match and exceed the realism you will capture the big fans like myself. However, to gain more market share you do need an element of game to this. Microsoft tried with missions but I think they fall short of capturing any types of gamers.

Adding a financial model and maybe even its own "virtual airline" will give your sim gameplay of some sorts. If you look at majority of the hardcore users anyway, they all belong to virtual airlines.

THere is a lot of talk about online systems here. Absolutely, it should be able to connect to VATSIM and others. However, some people like me do not have the time to dedicate to online flying. I need the pause button and often! Dont forget about us!

Good luck, this is some endeavor!

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If I see all the features that people want I once again wonder whether it is possible or at least practical to make a ‘one size fits all’ sim. For me it would be perfectly acceptable if I had to buy several sim versions of the same basic engine: a GA sim, an airliner sim, a warbirds sim, a carrier sim, a helicopter sim, perhaps even versions for various historical periods. If that would make developing the sim easier and compromises less necessary or complicated I would applaud that.

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