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Bell 205 Huey


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  • Aerosoft

So please, why not apply some non-standard solutions? Certainly with Aerosofts talented people it should be possible, when a two man team built what is the standard of realistic sim helicopters today.

Let's just see what our esteemed competitors come up with, okay? We got a very good guy on the flight models and we find that a lot of parameters used for helicopters are just not correct and they can not be corrected. For starters the simple fact the engine type is totally flawed. Even PMDG had to jump through hoops to get it more or less faked correctly (just as we are doing).

Making a realistic flight model for helicopters in FSX is a joke. Anybody who tells you different has not tried to make one. Now saying that does not mean you can't get a flight model that feels okay (and who has flown a Huey, right?) and behaves as good as FSX can do it. But we rather be honest about what we can deliver.

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Let's just see what our esteemed competitors come up with, okay? We got a very good guy on the flight models and we find that a lot of parameters used for helicopters are just not correct and they can not be corrected. For starters the simple fact the engine type is totally flawed. Even PMDG had to jump through hoops to get it more or less faked correctly (just as we are doing).

Making a realistic flight model for helicopters in FSX is a joke. Anybody who tells you different has not tried to make one. Now saying that does not mean you can't get a flight model that feels okay (and who has flown a Huey, right?) and behaves as good as FSX can do it. But we rather be honest about what we can deliver.

So all those people who fly helicopters in real life and say that the Dodo 206 is miles ahead of any other addon don't know what they are talking about? No disrespect ment, but it seems like you are busy saying it is impossible, while your esteemed competitors are jumping through the hoops to fake everything right. I haven't got many hours in a helicopter, but I know one thing, flying anything else than the D206 gets boring the moment I pull the collective. Or way before that if I am doing the startup myself. But I'll try to remember that it is impossible and dishonest next time I enter a vortex ring state because I have descended too fast without enough forward speed, or doing something as simple as to compensate with the pedals when I use the collective. Or am I missing your point somehow?

And I see Mr. Fletcher's point, but considering how few problems there actually are (I haven't had any yet, and the support forums seem to be very quiet.), I'm more than willing to restart FSX between changing aircraft if two addons conflict. It's worth the two minutes.

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I happen to agree with Wildbird, instead of saying "Making a realistic flight model for helicopters in FSX is a joke" why not just admit you guys don't want to invest the time and energy into trying to emulate what the DoDosim guys have done with their 206 (which I can understand from a business POV). You guys have the chance to learn from 2 other heli developers to give the customer what they want. The Milviz/ND huey is a beautiful model, but it too heavy on the frames for many, the upcoming DoDo huey will be systems rich with the option to also just get up and go, but the visual model from what has been posted with be more basic, so there is a niche in between that can be filled.

I can understand if the developer doesn't have the knowledge to do what the doDosim guys have done, so there is no harm in stating as such or at least looking into the possibilities.

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  • Aerosoft

I happen to agree with Wildbird, instead of saying "Making a realistic flight model for helicopters in FSX is a joke" why not just admit you guys don't want to invest the time and energy into trying to emulate what the DoDosim guys have done with their 206 (which I can understand from a business POV). You guys have the chance to learn from 2 other heli developers to give the customer what they want. The Milviz/ND huey is a beautiful model, but it too heavy on the frames for many, the upcoming DoDo huey will be systems rich with the option to also just get up and go, but the visual model from what has been posted with be more basic, so there is a niche in between that can be filled.

I can understand if the developer doesn't have the knowledge to do what the doDosim guys have done, so there is no harm in stating as such or at least looking into the possibilities.

Hold it, where have we said that we will not do as good as Dodo did it? I fully agree there flight modeling is if not the best, certainly among the best. But the simple fact is that FSX lacks a lot of parameters you need for a realistic helicopter flight model and for has massive problems in the modeling of the engine used in the Huey. You can be the Einstein of simming but you can't 'invent' these parameters. If you call what Dodo has done realistic, we don't have an argument about what we are doing, but a different definition of realism. You can get around a lot of the problems by faking what the instruments show (as FSX just gives nonsense). But all these things means that you get nowhere the realism we had in the Catalina or the Discuss glider for example.

We have discussed the problems with the turboprop engine modeling in FSX with some of the best people in the field. PMDG for example who spend months on that for their last aircraft. They say it is flawed like hell and that you got to fake a lot. We thought it could not be that bad, but it really is, the way MS done it can be best described as a jet engine powering a piston prop. As said you can tweak it so the result behaves okay in the most common settings, but you always going to run into problems in the low end or the high end of the power ranges. It also means you are going to have to loose a lot of compatibility with control hardware, fuel use is whacked and you got to either redo the whole fuel system or accept that what your fuel gauges show is not the same as the helicopter actually has on board (and that affects how it flies). It's one long string of problems you only have with turboprop and that are made bigger by putting it in a chopper.

So it's a matter of definition. I call a model with all these work around not very realistic and it can never be correct in the complete flight envelope and the complete power band of the engine. We choose not to call that realistic for the simple reason it just does net get to the same level of realism we got in other models. If we call the flight and engine model of the Huey realistic, what would we need to call the much more realistic flight model of other products we do? Hyper realistic? I'm not really into these terms. We do it as good as we can, withing the limitations. And that results in something that will closely resample the real Huey (we fly the real one a lot to compare what we got).

As I said, let's just wait until we are done and then we'll compare, okay?

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I don't get why workarounds are unrealistic, but okay, we can do that. But if it will be as realistic as the Dodo, does that mean that your Huey will act like a helicopter? This is the deal or no deal for me, not engine or instrument problems.

And I trust you to make Aerosofts possible flightsim very capable when it comes to helicopters as well as fixed wing. B)

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Shame it wont be as complex a flight model as the DODOSIM B206 for FSX then because that does things that the FSX engine doesn't allow, things like;

Torque-Induced Yaw

Transverse Flow Effect

Flap Back

Translating Tendency

Dis-symmetry of Lift

Vortex Ring State : very scary when it happens and great when you manage to recover from it without leaving a smoking hole.

Loss of Tail Rotor Effectiveness

Retreating Blade Stall

Tail wind effect on Horizontal Stabiliser

And that's just the aerodynamics..

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Shame it wont be as complex a flight model as the DODOSIM B206 for FSX then because that does things that the FSX engine doesn't allow, things like;

Torque-Induced Yaw

Transverse Flow Effect

Flap Back

Translating Tendency

Dis-symmetry of Lift

Vortex Ring State : very scary when it happens and great when you manage to recover from it without leaving a smoking hole.

Loss of Tail Rotor Effectiveness

Retreating Blade Stall

Tail wind effect on Horizontal Stabiliser

And that's just the aerodynamics..

Does it do gearbox failure? If it does I'd like them to send me a free copy for evaluation.

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Please stop comparing a not existing thing with annother one.

It doesn't help!

It helps me decide if I want to purchase a product or not when it comes out, what wrong with trying to find out that information, surely you must know what's possible within the confines on the FSX only engine by now, or is this product still a very long way from release?

Does it do gearbox failure?

I probably shouldn't be saying anymore on this subject as it may be deemed as advertising another developers product, so please feel free to delete if it goes against your rules.

Aircraft systems will fail according to misuse. This may take several flights as wear slowly increases. Oil temperatures and pressures degrade as wear occurs, warning lights will be triggered if the system has them and eventually the engine, sprag clutch, transmission or gearboxes may fail. Basically look after the 206 otherwise you will be in trouble.

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It helps me decide if I want to purchase a product or not when it comes out, what wrong with trying to find out that information, surely you must know what's possible within the confines on the FSX only engine by now, or is this product still a very long way from release?

But you can't decide without knowing anything about the finished flight model. Everything you "know" is what you think to know. All we said is, that we do all, FSX can handle. But who knows how much it can do?

I guess, you not! Or did you make a complete flight model for a chopper yet? Then of course, sorry!

WE are the guys, who say, there will be not the realism of a Discus or a Catalina, because we don't want to fool you.

Who knows? Maybe we get a superb flight model in the end. Maybe just a good one. All I can say is, that it will be not bad, ...as you try to make it, while comparing apples and oranges...

The huey is not so close to release that everything has been done yet, so even basic things of the flight model are still pretty open.

Regards Joachim

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I never said your flight model was going to be bad, please do not get me wrong, I said and I quote "Shame it wont be as complex a flight model as the DODOSIM B206 for FSX".

You intimated that you were not going to build a custom flight dynamics module, basically the module is a fly by wire system that sits between the FSX engine and the users control inputs that better simulates helicopter flight in FSX, its a heck of a lot more complicated than that but you have the basics. If you don't go to those lengths you wont be able to do anything in that list of features I listed earlier, and that is a shame, but its not the end of the world. I've yet to see any helicopter in FSX apart from the dodo that can simulate torque-induced yaw even remotely correctly, FSX simply wont allow it in the helicopter flight model, this is one of the fundamental things to master when first flying a helo.

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Indeed, torque induces yaw IS a basic thing, and I simply can't belive, that FSX can't do it.

We will for sure look at it.

Other things like vortex ring state are no direct basic things, they are compareable with unintended spins in a fixed wing aircraft. And honestly, wich FSX airplane can do this? OK the glider to name this one, aerosoft sells. But here we say, it IS a nearly perfect flight model. The Huey will most certainly not be able to simulate vortex rings, and we said, it is not a perfect flight model...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Quick question guys: Do the skids have compression animation or are they solid? Would be nice to have them visually compress when the chopper lands.

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Indeed very nice. thought about it several times but:

Huey skids ARE very solid. I doubt that they "flex" noticeable and I am not sure about "gear compression" on skid contact points. I remember almost 100% that this is not possible (we tried something with the flexing wings of the discus wich have skids)

Bests Joachim

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Indeed very nice. thought about it several times but:

Huey skids ARE very solid. I doubt that they "flex" noticeable and I am not sure about "gear compression" on skid contact points. I remember almost 100% that this is not possible (we tried something with the flexing wings of the discus wich have skids)

Bests Joachim

Aaah, I see you point now. My initial thought was that as long as the MDL was animated, FDE contact point class did not matter. I had no idea anything but Type 1 class disables the gear animation. And I've been a Flight Simmer since 1988! :blush:

Thanks for that, Joachim.

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  • Aerosoft

Aaah, I see you point now. My initial thought was that as long as the MDL was animated, FDE contact point class did not matter. I had no idea anything but Type 1 class disables the gear animation. And I've been a Flight Simmer since 1988! :blush:

Thanks for that, Joachim.

If you make the skids as rugged as they should be, FSX would crash our chopper on every landing. It just hates these rigid landing things. If you want the skid to stop on the surface (and not sink below) and not flex at all you end up with g-load that FSX thinks would crash a block of steel.

As we keep saying, FSX has limitations for helicopters, so we got to work around them. We say it is as good as FSX allows (and that is pretty good), we do not claim it is 99% accurate as some other people claim. We have been doing this for a long time and we think it is the best way to go.

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If you make the skids as rugged as they should be, FSX would crash our chopper on every landing. It just hates these rigid landing things. If you want the skid to stop on the surface (and not sink below) and not flex at all you end up with g-load that FSX thinks would crash a block of steel.

As we keep saying, FSX has limitations for helicopters, so we got to work around them. We say it is as good as FSX allows (and that is pretty good), we do not claim it is 99% accurate as some other people claim. We have been doing this for a long time and we think it is the best way to go.

I know exactly what you mean. The way I normally trick FSX into it is to add two type 1 contact point (gears) at the back of the skid. A lot of static compression (2~3 feet), average compression ratio (depending on the weight) and a tiny amount of damping ratio (less than 0.2; again, depending on the weight of the chopper). Makes the landings smooth and won't require parking brakes to be on all the time. Time consuming and truly irritating to get it spot on. Won't recommend it unless you're as nitpicking as I am! :P

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Nice to see another Pretty, but I think the nose looks a little differnent as the original. Missing the cable cutters wink.gif

Fine that there is a german SAR paintsheme cool.gif

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