HUD Placement

[rbringh 50]

Started flying the CRJ again and no matter how I try to let it slide it still irks me how you ruined the HUD in the name or "realism". I understand all about the view angle but the HUD should be adjustable to my view. If you think about it, it's very similar to a rear view mirror in a car. Every driver does not have to place him self in a position to see out the rear view mirror properly, he adjusts the mirror to his seating height. You have this $3,000 device that flops down in only one specific spot, I don't think that's realistic. That device is positioned by the pilot to fit HIS seating position. Ya'll had it right at first then someone tells you some technical viewing term and you ruin it for everyone else. Do us a favor and make the display adjustable like a rear view mirror so we can use it again in our custom view positions we all worked so hard to set.

[Crabby 28]

2 hours ago, rbringh said:

Started flying the CRJ again and no matter how I try to let it slide it still irks me how you ruined the HUD in the name or "realism". I understand all about the view angle but the HUD should be adjustable to my view. If you think about it, it's very similar to a rear view mirror in a car. Every driver does not have to place him self in a position to see out the rear view mirror properly, he adjusts the mirror to his seating height. You have this $3,000 device that flops down in only one specific spot, I don't think that's realistic. That device is positioned by the pilot to fit HIS seating position. Ya'll had it right at first then someone tells you some technical viewing term and you ruin it for everyone else. Do us a favor and make the display adjustable like a rear view mirror so we can use it again in our custom view positions we all worked so hard to set.

The HUD is not adjustable like a rear-view mirror.  Your seat position is.  The HUD as to be in the correct position to receive the projection and to function correctly it must be collimated.  It has a laser alignment system to make sure it is in the correct position.  If you read here, what you will not see is how to adjust the combiner position to make the pilot happy.  Microsoft Word - 9701-1153RevA.doc (smartcockpit.com)  It has two positions, stowed and normal detent.  

[rbringh 50]

Thanks Crab Man...lol. I must be a super short pilot....lola. 

 

No argument with the technical aspect, I just don't see much point in this MODEL to spend time and money on the HUD development for such limited use. The default camera position is the only position where it is readable for me and that position is just not suitable for me during take off's and landings. . I'm sure in the real plane it is much more functional in those situations.

 

I'm sure it took the software designer some time and effort to create this jewel, sadly another bad application.

 

Thanks for your time and I appreciate the education.

[rbringh 50]

I may be interpreting the cockpit camera movement wrong but it seems to me it is simulating my movement. From the default camera cockpit view looking straight ahead the view of the HUD is fine. If I look up or down, left or right the view is fine. My issue is if I move directly back ex. slide seat back to get my face out of the windscreen the HUD is unreadable. It's like the projector is moving. I would assume it is permanently mounted. I can understand moving left or right but me (I'm assuming the camera is me) moving forward or backward why does it increase or decrease the HUD magnification scale. Again I'm assuming the projector is solid mounted

[KuntaKinte 210]

One problem with the HGS is that the symbols are displayed incorrectly relative to the seating position. This was already reported a while back:

 

 

IRL, there is only one correct seating position, which must be adjusted with the help of the "Eye Reference Point" and even in this optimal position, head movements are only possible to a very small extent - otherwise the symbols would start to disappear, because both the size of the combiner and the capabilities of the projector are limited.

[Jeremy Jeffreys 9]

1 hour ago, KuntaKinte said:

One problem with the HGS is that the symbols are displayed incorrectly relative to the seating position. This was already reported a while back:

 

 

IRL, there is only one correct seating position, which must be adjusted with the help of the "Eye Reference Point" and even in this optimal position, head movements are only possible to a very small extent - otherwise the symbols would start to disappear, because both the size of the combiner and the capabilities of the projector are limited.

 

MK, 

 

Just wondering if this is on the list of things getting fixed in the next update? It is very difficult to use the HUD for landing since you can't see the bugs when configured properly,

 

Thanks,

 

Jeremy

[Crabby 28]

3 hours ago, KuntaKinte said:

One problem with the HGS is that the symbols are displayed incorrectly relative to the seating position. This was already reported a while back:

 

 

IRL, there is only one correct seating position, which must be adjusted with the help of the "Eye Reference Point" and even in this optimal position, head movements are only possible to a very small extent - otherwise the symbols would start to disappear, because both the size of the combiner and the capabilities of the projector are limited.

Yes, you pointed this out on another thread and it was acknowledged by AS.

[rbringh 50]

3 hours ago, KuntaKinte said:

One problem with the HGS is that the symbols are displayed incorrectly relative to the seating position. This was already reported a while back:

 

 

IRL, there is only one correct seating position, which must be adjusted with the help of the "Eye Reference Point" and even in this optimal position, head movements are only possible to a very small extent - otherwise the symbols would start to disappear, because both the size of the combiner and the capabilities of the projector are limited.

 

In the 238 page manual Crab Man provided me it only had a one small paragraph on view, copied below...

 

Overview The Model 4200 HGS is a high-integrity, wide field of view head-up display (HUD) system designed for full-flight operations that include lowvisibility takeoffs, landings, and rollout in the Bombardier CRJ-700 aircraft. The HGS consists of four line-replaceable units (LRUs) (Figure 2-1):

[Crabby 28]

10 hours ago, rbringh said:

I may be interpreting the cockpit camera movement wrong but it seems to me it is simulating my movement. From the default camera cockpit view looking straight ahead the view of the HUD is fine. If I look up or down, left or right the view is fine. My issue is if I move directly back ex. slide seat back to get my face out of the windscreen the HUD is unreadable. It's like the projector is moving. I would assume it is permanently mounted. I can understand moving left or right but me (I'm assuming the camera is me) moving forward or backward why does it increase or decrease the HUD magnification scale. Again I'm assuming the projector is solid mounted

These are my two standard views.  I normally fly the second view when hand flying and the first is "seat back" for cruise.  This is the only reference I was able to find showing where a pilots head would be in relation to the combiner and it is from a simulator being flown by a Rockwell employee.  My goal with the second image was to get the combiner where it would be if my real head (the one on my shoulders) was looking through that combiner in a cockpit.  However, moving slightly lower in that second view is where I fly VFR approaches without the combiner as it gives me a good over the nose view.  I don't worry about what I don't see as I can move my head, like I would do in a real cockpit and look at things.  Here is the video from Rockwell

 

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[rbringh 50]

Your 2 setup pictures kind of emphasize my point. If the combiner hasn't moved and the projection device hasn't moved why is the scale of the display on the combiner changing? Your movement shouldn't have anything to do with the SIZE of the image projected. If it does I would love to know why...lol.

[Crabby 28]

2 hours ago, rbringh said:

Your 2 setup pictures kind of emphasize my point. If the combiner hasn't moved and the projection device hasn't moved why is the scale of the display on the combiner changing? Your movement shouldn't have anything to do with the SIZE of the image projected. If it does, I would love to know why...lol.

The scale of the data did not change.  I "moved" the combiner closer to my virtual eyeballs.  The display data didn't change in size or position.  Notice the -5 line on the combiner and its position next to the runway light.  Same Same.  The only scale that changed was the combiner.  I am not sure, but based on what I know about collimation and focused to infinity, this is how it would work if behind a real combiner.  Maybe one of our real CRJ guys can chime in.

[rbringh 50]

"I "moved" the combiner closer to my virtual eyeballs.  The display data didn't change in size or position. "

 

If what your saying is true than the image is not being projected on the combiner but on something behind it. I'm not trying to be thick about this but in my small mind the ratio of projected image size to combiner size should not change if you move closer to it with your real eyes or virtual eyes. As the combiner appears larger as you move closer, the projected image should also, and vice versa. Unless your wearing the projector on your head....lol.

 

Let's just agree to disagree. I know nothing is going to change in the CRJ model. It is what it is. It was a good tool in it's original design to aid with the small text on the PFD's. Useless in sunlight but still a good tool. I feel sorry for the original developer. A lot of wasted work he did.

 

It would be nice if someone with real life experience would chime in though.

[Crabby 28]

This is true.  The image is projected on the combiner but not "on" the combiner.  Smoke, mirrors and science (without the smoke), does it in a way that makes the image appear at optical infinity. 

 

From the intro in the manual "The HGS focuses the display at optical infinity and presents flight and navigational data conformal to the real world."  Since optical infinity means that the "source" sends light in parallel beams, there would be no change in the aspect of an object at optical infinity.  From any view from any distance, the source would remain unchanged.   You can see optical infinity at work in the night sky.  Stars do not change their apparent position when you sit or stand, unlike a beer bottle on a nearby table.  

 

Not trying to make you agree or not, it is a case of it is what it is, and we have to adjust to how it works.  Like in real life. 

[KuntaKinte 210]

On 4/25/2022 at 11:04 PM, rbringh said:

the ratio of projected image size to combiner size should not change

 

But it does.

 

Have a look at the video below. Unfortunately with poor quality, but it is only to show collimation with the infinite focus: As the camera moves back and forth, the displayed image always remains the same size.

This causes certain limitations: At too great a distance, the content will be cropped by the edges of the combiner. Getting closer to the combiner has the opposite effect - but your head would soon block the projection beam.

IRL, this results in a rather small "Eye Box", which is why I keep repeating that there is only ONE correct seating position with this system.

 

 

[Jeremy Jeffreys 9]

On 4/25/2022 at 7:31 AM, Jeremy Jeffreys said:

 

MK, 

 

Just wondering if this is on the list of things getting fixed in the next update? It is very difficult to use the HUD for landing since you can't see the bugs when configured properly,

 

Thanks,

 

Jeremy

Any response on if this is captured in the Beta build?

[amahran 601]

To revive this topic:

The modelling of the HUD combiner in MSFS is deficient. When in flight, the HUD aircraft reference symbols are very low on the display, and even cruising at Mach 0.8 the FPS symbol is almost at the bottom of the display (picture here shown with the cockpit camera in the default position)

 

 

Note that the symbols are 60-75% from the top of the display. This is as opposed to the equivalent picture from the HGS manual, with the aircraft reference symbol approximately 40% from the top of the display:

 

This makes it difficult to conduct approaches, as high angles of attack experienced on final approach will result in the Flight Path Symbol exiting the bounds of the ADI to the bottom:

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The root cause is that the modelling of the combiner itself is deficient, and really requires the following:

• Improvement of the 3D model of the combiner (needs to be taller)
• Improvement of the symbology layout in the HUD

 

I will also add that it feels like this HUD isn't conformal. The aircraft is following the ILS and well established, but the FPS is at quite a sharp angle away from the runway (enough for it to be objectionable).

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