Jump to content

Aerosoft CRJ Developers...Please answer this question on LNAV Tracking issue (over-correcting, swaying back and forth)


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Crabby said:

If you don't like my Bigfoot analogy, then save up some money and buy a sense of humor.

Where has everyone's gone these days?  I got a temp ban on the MSFS forums for "throwing a tantrum" by posting a gif of a kid banging their utensils on the table when a dev said SU8 delayed their plane a few days, and I told Hester that if the mod team really supported diversity and inclusion, they'd hire a mod with a sense of humor.  The loser banned me for good for that.  "Moderator abuse."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Crabby said:

Computers and code are a weird combination.  This whole issue could come down to:

1. an error in code that only manifests itself on certain local system combinations 

2. an error in local systems that many folks have without knowing they have it

3. some common third-party mod that causes this

 

Unless it's navigraph data causing it ( that'd be something freaky ) I can rule out 3, because I have the same issue with or without any mods.

 

Lets look at what's common & what changes.

* Did this problem not come up in different sims? if so, we can *probably* rule out it being specific to MSFS's api, at least.

* What's different between systems? well, everyone has different drivers & so forth, but does the CRJ code interface with any of them directly? I can't see why it would, it's interface is mostly MSFS because that's what it's controlling. People's systems have different performance and possibly different responses to anything relating to time slicing - and timing is absolutely critical for controllers ( I mean software controllers like integrators, not game controls ). I have coded some basic controllers in the past with unreliable time interval data & they can go really bizarrely haywire. If the code is relying on system time & the parent sim itself is not behaving properly with respect to the passage of time ( have you ever been in a group flight with someone with fps issues? they will appear to slow down so much you risk stalling trying to stay in formation, but their sim is telling them all is fine - I do not trust this thing much when it comes to timing ) then things are going to get wobbly too.

* There could be other ultra bizarre corruption errors caused by something as daft as the host PC's localisation. Or maybe a specific version of VC++ redistributables combined with something *that* interacts with, or something horrible to trace. I suspect the only way to get enough data is to give people who've got an issue a logging version of the aircraft's control library & then have them do specific tests, and hope...

 

Good luck team!

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Crabby said:

Guys here is what AS has already said, numerous times and this could be why you are not hearing anything else, there is nothing else. 

 

Mathjis stated that there will be an announcement. I will wait to hear what he has to say. I can't imagine he'd say that if there "is nothing else". He could have said that weeks ago. The fact is that it does not do this with any other aircraft I have including AS's own Twin Otter. By a process of deduction, there must be something going on with the crj. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Richard Dastardly said:

 

Unless it's navigraph data causing it ( that'd be something freaky ) I can rule out 3, because I have the same issue with or without any mods.

 

Lets look at what's common & what changes.

* Did this problem not come up in different sims? if so, we can *probably* rule out it being specific to MSFS's api, at least.

* What's different between systems? well, everyone has different drivers & so forth, but does the CRJ code interface with any of them directly? I can't see why it would, it's interface is mostly MSFS because that's what it's controlling. People's systems have different performance and possibly different responses to anything relating to time slicing - and timing is absolutely critical for controllers ( I mean software controllers like integrators, not game controls ). I have coded some basic controllers in the past with unreliable time interval data & they can go really bizarrely haywire. If the code is relying on system time & the parent sim itself is not behaving properly with respect to the passage of time ( have you ever been in a group flight with someone with fps issues? they will appear to slow down so much you risk stalling trying to stay in formation, but their sim is telling them all is fine - I do not trust this thing much when it comes to timing ) then things are going to get wobbly too.

* There could be other ultra bizarre corruption errors caused by something as daft as the host PC's localisation. Or maybe a specific version of VC++ redistributables combined with something *that* interacts with, or something horrible to trace. I suspect the only way to get enough data is to give people who've got an issue a logging version of the aircraft's control library & then have them do specific tests, and hope...

 

Good luck team!

I gave up trying to figure out PC's a long time ago, just like women.  I have the same gaming rig as my son.  Exact same.  Ordered from the same place on the same date and delivered the same day.  We fired them up at the same time.  We are both running the same updates.  He get's CTD's with MSFS and I have had one that was traced to a bad livery.  We have mainly the same mods.  I have a few more payware airports because, well I can afford them better than he at this time.  Other than that who the hell knows.  Maybe his memory sticks are not as solid as mine but they tested out the same.  It is nuts.  Also, he has reported to me that he sees the LNAV issue.  I have never seen it on his system so if he does have it is intermittent.  Funny thing is that his rig runs other games like shooters about the same as mine.

 

I believe that it is the quantum uncertainty principle leaking into our macro world.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, acbent123 said:

Mathjis stated that there will be an announcement. I will wait to hear what he has to say. I can't imagine he'd say that if there "is nothing else". He could have said that weeks ago. The fact is that it does not do this with any other aircraft I have including AS's own Twin Otter. By a process of deduction, there must be something going on with the crj. 

If it is as simple as a process of deduction, why am I and many others NOT seeing this issue.  What does the process of deduction men there?  The fact that other aircraft and the Twin Otter work to whatever extent does not matter when it comes to chasing down any issue in the CRJ.  Something working is not an indication that something else is broken. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Crabby said:

I gave up trying to figure out PC's a long time ago, just like women.  I have the same gaming rig as my son.  Exact same.  Ordered from the same place on the same date and delivered the same day.  We fired them up at the same time.  We are both running the same updates.  He get's CTD's with MSFS and I have had one that was traced to a bad livery.  We have mainly the same mods.  I have a few more payware airports because, well I can afford them better than he at this time.  Other than that who the hell knows.  Maybe his memory sticks are not as solid as mine but they tested out the same.  It is nuts.  Also, he has reported to me that he sees the LNAV issue.  I have never seen it on his system so if he does have it is intermittent.  Funny thing is that his rig runs other games like shooters about the same as mine.

 

I believe that it is the quantum uncertainty principle leaking into our macro world.  

 

That's interesting - do you have the same controllers plugged in? you said you had VR at some point, does he also?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Richard Dastardly said:

 

That's interesting - do you have the same controllers plugged in? you said you had VR at some point, does he also?

Never had VR and my son never has either.  I have trackir now.  The only differences are controllers.  He has my old Thrust Master T16000 throttle and joystick and I have the Honeycomb Alpha and Bravo.  Both of us have MFG Crosswind pedals.  He has the stock keyboard and mouse and I have a logitech wirless keyboard and mouse.  The only other difference would be he tends to buy from the msfs store and I avoid it like the plague (don't think this is the issue though), I had my MSFS install in a custom directory until the last beta.  When I came off the beta the sim did a full re-install and I did not notice and my community folder changed to the default.  I now run my community folder with symbolic links from where I install things to my old community folder, then I link that community folder symbolically to the default install directory after deleting the "real" community folder.  I did that so I did not have to make several changes to the folder structure I use to install add ons. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Crabby said:

Never had VR and my son never has either.  I have trackir now.  The only differences are controllers.  He has my old Thrust Master T16000 throttle and joystick and I have the Honeycomb Alpha and Bravo.  Both of us have MFG Crosswind pedals.  He has the stock keyboard and mouse and I have a logitech wirless keyboard and mouse.  The only other difference would be he tends to buy from the msfs store and I avoid it like the plague (don't think this is the issue though), I had my MSFS install in a custom directory until the last beta.  When I came off the beta the sim did a full re-install and I did not notice and my community folder changed to the default.  I now run my community folder with symbolic links from where I install things to my old community folder, then I link that community folder symbolically to the default install directory after deleting the "real" community folder.  I did that so I did not have to make several changes to the folder structure I use to install add ons. 

 

I really doubt install location is going to make a difference - symbolic links ( ala addon linker ) are just a sign saying "things are over there now", they don't change any files - and everything has to be already loaded before the aircraft can operate anyway. Did he get the CRJ off the store too? I guess I should re-ask that as a general question, is anyone who got the CRJ direct from Aerosoft or some other third party that doesn't use the store got the LNAV issue?

 

I might try removing my TM throttle & the TM software - I guess a straw poll of users & their controllers would not be a waste of time too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Richard Dastardly said:

 

I really doubt install location is going to make a difference - symbolic links ( ala addon linker ) are just a sign saying "things are over there now", they don't change any files - and everything has to be already loaded before the aircraft can operate anyway. Did he get the CRJ off the store too? I guess I should re-ask that as a general question, is anyone who got the CRJ direct from Aerosoft or some other third party that doesn't use the store got the LNAV issue?

 

I might try removing my TM throttle & the TM software - I guess a straw poll of users & their controllers would not be a waste of time too.

Well, don't go down a rabbit hole based on my and my son's experience.  Like I said, I gave up trying to understand computers a long time ago.  I have no clue why some never see this issue, some see it all the time and some see it intermittently.  It's a riddle wrapped in an enigma.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SimWare said:

Computers help you solve problems you didn't have before...

LOL, big upvote on this one.  This should be on a T-Shirt.

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Crabby said:

Well, don't go down a rabbit hole based on my and my son's experience.  Like I said, I gave up trying to understand computers a long time ago.  I have no clue why some never see this issue, some see it all the time and some see it intermittently.  It's a riddle wrapped in an enigma.

No not poking anything deeply, just gathering anecdotal data. I seem to remember the WT CJ4 also at least had a period of similar LNAV problems - that sort of thing makes me consider if they were using similar concepts architecturally which should work in theory, but because something common isn't behaving as it should...

 

But mostly gathering anecdotal evidence lets you rule things out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Richard Dastardly said:

No not poking anything deeply, just gathering anecdotal data. I seem to remember the WT CJ4 also at least had a period of similar LNAV problems - that sort of thing makes me consider if they were using similar concepts architecturally which should work in theory, but because something common isn't behaving as it should...

 

But mostly gathering anecdotal evidence lets you rule things out.

I forgot to mention I am using Navigraph too, both for the sim and the CRJ.  I think my son is too but will check

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/17/2022 at 2:49 PM, Crabby said:

If it is as simple as a process of deduction, why am I and many others NOT seeing this issue.  What does the process of deduction men there?  The fact that other aircraft and the Twin Otter work to whatever extent does not matter when it comes to chasing down any issue in the CRJ.  Something working is not an indication that something else is broken. 

Again...I'll wait to see what Mathjis or someone from the dev team has to say. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, acbent123 said:

Again...I'll wait to see what Mathjis or someone from the dev team has to say. 

Fine by me.  He said he would announce something when they have it.  I don't think that Mathjis or anyone else is going to put out a "hey we still don't know what is going on" post.  So, there is no logical reason to continually ask for an update that was promised when it is known. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Crabby said:

Fine by me.  He said he would announce something when they have it.  I don't think that Mathjis or anyone else is going to put out a "hey we still don't know what is going on" post.  So, there is no logical reason to continually ask for an update that was promised when it is known. 

Mathjis said, on 14 Mar, "There will be news about this soon". Not looking for a the fix, just, as a paying customer, an indication if they are working on it, or some kind (any kind) of update. Otherwise, I'll ask as I see fit. Stop attempting to direct. I did appreciate reading your posts above. They added to the conversation. Is your son bothered by the fact that he has LNAV issues?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, acbent123 said:

Mathjis said, on 14 Mar, "There will be news about this soon". Not looking for a the fix, just, as a paying customer, an indication if they are working on it, or some kind (any kind) of update. Otherwise, I'll ask as I see fit. Stop attempting to direct. I did appreciate reading your posts above. They added to the conversation. Is your son bothered by the fact that he has LNAV issues?

 

No they are not working on it at all.  The entire AS crew is off on holiday since February 15th, rumored to be in Ibiza.  Talk is swirling about beer binging leading to them trying to code the rise of the machines a la Terminator.  

 

Tell us paying customer, what else do you pay for in which you are not only feel entitled to, but receive daily/weekly or monthly work reports?  None of my paying clients do.  For example, when you buy a burger at McDonalds are you entitled to know if they are having a meeting to create a new way to cut the pickles? 

No my son is too busy working and raising a family and serving his country to be worried about issues with his fake airplane.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Crabby said:

No they are not working on it at all.  The entire AS crew is off on holiday since February 15th, rumored to be in Ibiza.  Talk is swirling about beer binging leading to them trying to code the rise of the machines a la Terminator.  

 

Tell us paying customer, what else do you pay for in which you are not only feel entitled to, but receive daily/weekly or monthly work reports?  None of my paying clients do.  For example, when you buy a burger at McDonalds are you entitled to know if they are having a meeting to create a new way to cut the pickles? 

No my son is too busy working and raising a family and serving his country to be worried about issues with his fake airplane.  

You know what, Crabby. How about you stop responding to my posts? I've had enough of your condescention, dismissivenes and judgemental attitude. It's no wonder so many people find you objectionable. Maybe this will get the thread locked, but I'm sick and tired of your attitude and felt the need to express my thoughts. BTW, you sure expend a lot of energy around this "fake airplane". 

  • Upvote 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, acbent123 said:

You know what, Crabby. How about you stop responding to my posts? I've had enough of your condescention, dismissivenes and judgemental attitude. It's no wonder so many people find you objectionable. Maybe this will get the thread locked, but I'm sick and tired of your attitude and felt the need to express my thoughts. BTW, you sure expend a lot of energy around this "fake airplane". 

Apparently not.  You continue to make posts that are easy to dismiss, judge and be condescending of.  Never did I say anything about not enjoying my fake airplane, it is just that I am able to discern that it is fake and don't need news from anyone to give my life meaning. 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No doubt this will draw another sarcy snark reply, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect some after market support on something like this. I think your McDonalds hamburger is not a good example. You buy it, you eat it, done.
 

A car is a better analogy. If you buy it and something is not right, say a manufacturing issue, you expect the manufacturer to maybe look at it, or fix it for free, or a recall or something. You expect after market support. And yes this is an example, I’m not equating an  expensive car to a £30 computer game addon.

 

I’m sure most of us are well aware it’s only a fake airplane we use for entertainment, but if something is not right with it, it’s really not overreacting to ask if someone is taking a look at it and maybe is there a fix coming please, without immediately tying that into the meaning of life or my own self worth, or letting it keep me awake at night.

 

Insinuating that people that feel this way are delicate entitled snowflakes is disingenuous. 
 

The point is, the sim is an evolving platform, and addon makers can and will encounter issues as it evolves. Within reason, I think people can expect a certain level of effort by those developers to keep/bring their stuff up-to-date and working as the platform matures. And within reason, there is some expectation that outstanding bugs are resolved, to a degree.


All that notwithstanding, Aerosoft has been rather quiet on the CRJ (and the Twin Otter) front, and if they are working on issues, they’re not doing a good job at letting people know. Are people ‘entitled’ to know? Maybe not. Is it useful to keep banging Aerosoft doors for updates and news (sometimes very rudely)? No. But they could be a little more forthcoming, purely for the sake of goodwill and ‘PR management”.

 

You’re a funny one Crabby. In the same post you can come across as Aerosofts condescending butler/watchdog, batting away each and every unpleasant question and remark, while in the next paragraph actually saying something useful or adding to the discussion meaningfully.

  • Upvote 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Crabby said:

Apparently not.  You continue to make posts that are easy to dismiss, judge and be condescending of.  Never did I say anything about not enjoying my fake airplane, it is just that I am able to discern that it is fake and don't need news from anyone to give my life meaning. 

 

And, it's your job to judge the nature and quality of peoples' posts? Who appointed you to that position? Did Aerosoft? I doubt it. You know nothing about my life or what I value and it's incredibly presumptious of you imply that the quality of my life hinges on a piece of software. Since I don't hide behind anonymity, I'll let you know upfront that I am, again, reporting your comments to the moderators. And since you continue to insist on trolling, I won't be responding  to any of your posts.

  • Upvote 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Dopster198 said:

No doubt this will draw another sarcy snark reply, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect some after market support on something like this. I think your McDonalds hamburger is not a good example. You buy it, you eat it, done.
 

A car is a better analogy. If you buy it and something is not right, say a manufacturing issue, you expect the manufacturer to maybe look at it, or fix it for free, or a recall or something. You expect after market support. And yes this is an example, I’m not equating an  expensive car to a £30 computer game addon.

 

I’m sure most of us are well aware it’s only a fake airplane we use for entertainment, but if something is not right with it, it’s really not overreacting to ask if someone is taking a look at it and maybe is there a fix coming please, without immediately tying that into the meaning of life or my own self worth, or letting it keep me awake at night.

 

Insinuating that people that feel this way are delicate entitled snowflakes is disingenuous. 
 

The point is, the sim is an evolving platform, and addon makers can and will encounter issues as it evolves. Within reason, I think people can expect a certain level of effort by those developers to keep/bring their stuff up-to-date and working as the platform matures. And within reason, there is some expectation that outstanding bugs are resolved, to a degree.


All that notwithstanding, Aerosoft has been rather quiet on the CRJ (and the Twin Otter) front, and if they are working on issues, they’re not doing a good job at letting people know. Are people ‘entitled’ to know? Maybe not. Is it useful to keep banging Aerosoft doors for updates and news (sometimes very rudely)? No. But they could be a little more forthcoming, purely for the sake of goodwill and ‘PR management”.

 

You’re a funny one Crabby. In the same post you can come across as Aerosofts condescending butler/watchdog, batting away each and every unpleasant question and remark, while in the next paragraph actually saying something useful or adding to the discussion meaningfully.

Well said. I've been a long term customer of Aerosoft products. I enjoy and appreciate both the CRJ and Twin Otter and I can only begin to imagine the complexity of coding/modeling etc involved in such products. The LNAV issue is real even though it apparently does not affect everyone. I can appreciate how difficult it might be to identlfy and fix a problem of this nature. Mathijs did say that news was coming shortly. I just post occasionally to keep the thread current. 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/21/2022 at 3:09 AM, Dopster198 said:

You’re a funny one Crabby. In the same post you can come across as Aerosofts condescending butler/watchdog, batting away each and every unpleasant question and remark, while in the next paragraph actually saying something useful or adding to the discussion meaningfully.

Yep, could be something do with the content I am replying to.  

The whole point here, for the give me a report now crowd, is that AS did exactly that. The acknowledged the report of an issue.  They said they had been unable to replicate it, so far.  They said they would say more when they had more.  Most folks with a bit of reading comprehension, would come and check the forum for an updated report.  Seeing none, they would go do something else, warm in the knowledge that since there was no further report there was no further information to report on.  Instead, many decide that is the moment to make some kind of "I am a paying customer" demand.  

 

Notice in my McDonalds comparison, I did not allude to complaining about the burger you just bought and will consume, but to demanding a non-existent right to be in the know about development steps not ready for public consumption (no pun intended).  

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Deputy Sheriffs

I am going to unlock this thread again after a week of closure. Please keep it civil and on topic from now on.

A word from the development side. We have been monitoring this issue and have been able to occasionally recreate it, but it's very random so far. When we have been able to recreate it, we have tried several approaches to mitigate the issue but since it's so hard to recreate (even if you fly exactly same flight, same conditions etc. it might not happen), testing the possible fixes is not easy either. So overall, the issue is known, and we are constantly looking out for it trying to find ways to reliably recreate it.

Therefore I call for public help on this matter. If anyone experiences this issue, please post it here together with screenshots or even better with a video including as much details as possible. Important details especially are the aircraft type (variant), route, location of the issue (which leg it happened), aircraft weight and balance (screenshot from the EFB) and weather conditions (especially the wind). While other discussion of the topic is allowed as long as it's kept civil, this kind of detailed reports should be the priority. They offer the most help to us.

I assure you once again that this issue, or CRJ development in general, has not been forgotten and we want to get it fixed for you as much as you want to see it being fixed. The biggest roadblock is that we are unable to reliably recreate the issue which significantly slows down the investigation.

  • Thanks 6
  • Upvote 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Herman locked this topic
  • Herman unlocked this topic

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue. Privacy Policy & Terms of Use