ldnflightsim22 4 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 Have seen lots of chaos and unhappiness over the past 36 hours, so just want to get some clarity from the devs/whether @Mathijs Kok can elaborate? I haven't yet bought the Twin Otter. I saw lots of criticism on release ("treating consumers like beta testers" etc), and clearly there's now been a hotfix. The general feeling seems to be that this fix hasn't resolved the existing sound issues. Having watched a few videos of folks using the update, this would seem reasonable. Note this one especially: https://youtu.be/eEeLx5sw88A?t=1690 - 28 mins in, the sound transition to idle simply isn't good enough for a payware aircraft. I think this is a question of value for money, and what consumers can expect when they buy a product. My key question now is whether Aerosoft is satisfied with the product, especially the sounds? I've seen some criticism slightly brushed off - does Aerosoft believe the sound quality is appropriate, or does the team accept there's a problem that will need to be rectified in order to restore confidence? I by no means wish to add to the criticism - I really want this aircraft. I've been so keen to get flying in it, but sadly don't feel it's good value for money in its current state. Thanks so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerosoft Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558 Posted January 27, 2022 Aerosoft Share Posted January 27, 2022 Yes, we will keep updating as we do for most of our products. And we have ordered a full new sound recording as well because the sounds that we had can simply not be tweaked more then that they has been done. And while we of course worry about the remaining issues, we are very happy because this one has sold extremely well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blinn1980 0 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 come on guys, we are confident Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transair27 90 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 This indeed is good news Mathijs. Whatever the means to an outcome, the sound set simply has to portray the Otter as closely as possible at all stages of flight - hence at all engine settings and in transition. I'm so pleased to hear you're on board with fixing this. I'd suggest don't rush it - rather get the high level of quality in there, fully tested and then recognised and supported by a broad base of experience. Can't wait to get on the end of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moach 97 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 If I might make a suggestion, perhaps while the audio is being worked on, there could be smaller in-between updates for the simpler Little Big Things, like reversed ailerons and such like. No reason to hold up those detail improvement just to release everything in one large bundle. The little things sometimes make the largest difference. I believe that would keep people satisfied and highlight the ongoing efforts a lot more than otherwise. Just a thought. I know very well how much of a hassle it is to pack things up for a releasable build, thought I reckon in this case it could be worthwhile to put a small hotfix out while the big SFX work is underway. It might ease up the rush pressure considerably, with fewer things to be waited on. Glad to hear you're all on top of things anyways. Waiting is a far less frustrating than "not knowing if the word got across" - Even if it takes a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q100 7 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 This is really good news and I just wanted to say that I am enjoying the airplane. I have flown the Extended version for many years and now I am very happy to have the Twin Otter in the new simulator. Yes, there are some issues with engine sounds, but I am happy to hear that they will be changed. I would like to point out that in my opinion the other sounds of the plane are very immersive and well done and add a lot of realism. Thanks for all the work you put into this airplane! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K 93 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 4 hours ago, Mathijs Kok said: Yes, we will keep updating as we do for most of our products. And we have ordered a full new sound recording as well because the sounds that we had can simply not be tweaked more then that they has been done. And while we of course worry about the remaining issues, we are very happy because this one has sold extremely well. Very good news indeed. I'm holding off buying the Twotter for the moment, because of the reported problems I'm reading about. However, I really do want it so I'm looking forward to seeing what measures are taken. All the best with it - it deserves to be perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enright 11 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 12 hours ago, Mathijs Kok said: Yes, we will keep updating as we do for most of our products. And we have ordered a full new sound recording as well because the sounds that we had can simply not be tweaked more then that they has been done. And while we of course worry about the remaining issues, we are very happy because this one has sold extremely well. Hi Mathijs - thank you for being so willing to address this issue. I'd like to make sure you understand that a large part of the issue is not with the quality of the sounds themselves, but the fact that they are not configured to increase or decrease in pitch proportional to throttle input, which has less to do with the recordings than how the recordings are implemented. This video (originally posted by Payt Laros in the sound forum) is an example of a soundset that is configured to correctly adjust pitch: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payt Laros 28 Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 13 hours ago, Mathijs Kok said: Yes, we will keep updating as we do for most of our products. And we have ordered a full new sound recording as well because the sounds that we had can simply not be tweaked more then that they has been done. And while we of course worry about the remaining issues, we are very happy because this one has sold extremely well. Hi Mathijs, so good to see you're so dedicated to get this one right! Also really nice to hear that the Twotter has been selling well! I just flew around St Maarten and St Barth, and there were quite a few Twotters flying around over there. A lovely sight for sure! As for the sound: To be honest I think the sounds you have are excellent recordings already. You really don't need a different set, as far as I can see. All you need is for the engine sounds to be programmed within WWise properly, so that they follow the PITCH envelope of the engines correctly. Right now they are just a couple of static loops that don't change pitch as the engine changes RPM. It's just crossfading between these static loops. Imagine you have a mixing desk with 6 faders, and on each fader you have a loop of the engine. The first loop is of the engine at idle, the second of it at 20 %, then one at 40, 60 , 80 and finally the last loop at 100%. You can move the faders all you want, but you'll never get a smooth transsition form 0 to 100 %.. it'll just be static loops at increments of 20%. This is the problem you have right now. What you'd need is a knob that changes the pitch of the tapes. All the way to the left is 0% thrust, and then you turn it up to say 15 percent. It'd simply speed up the tape (raise the pitch) of loop 1 and move up the fader of track 1. Then, as it approaches 20%, tape 1 fades out and the second fades in. Then as you increase RPM further, the speed (pitch) of tape 2 increases, which then fades out while tape3 fades in as you approach 40% RPM, and on it goes to 100%. That's basically how it should work in WWISE. So if you replace those engine noises with new recordings, you're just going to have the same effect, but with different recordings. It will still sound wrong. What you need is what's called PITCH CURVES within WWISE. Here's an explanation of what they are and how they work: https://www.audiokinetic.com/library/2017.2.10_6745/?source=Help&id=building_smart_pitch_curves https://blog.audiokinetic.com/loop-based-car-engine-design-with-wwise-part-1/ https://blog.audiokinetic.com/loop-based-car-engine-design-with-wwise-part-2/ https://www.audiokinetic.com/library/2017.2.10_6745/?source=SampleProject&id=car_engine_details_matching_pitch_to_rpm_using_rtpcs These explanations relate to car engine sound design, but it's basically the same thing. I really think you can make an excellent representation of how the twotter sounds with the current recordings, they just need to be implemented right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonBarb 2 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 18 hours ago, Mathijs Kok said: And while we of course worry about the remaining issues, we are very happy because this one has sold extremely well. Did I just read "We might fix the other problems, but it's really not all that important because you already bought it anyway" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ldnflightsim22 4 Posted January 28, 2022 Author Share Posted January 28, 2022 On 1/27/2022 at 8:48 AM, Mathijs Kok said: And while we of course worry about the remaining issues, we are very happy because this one has sold extremely well. @Mathijs Kok I'm afraid the optics here simply aren't great. You're benchmarking your success on sales, rather than how satisfied the community is with the product. The most important metric has to be whether consumers are satisfied - it's hardly a surprise that the product has "sold extremely well". The MSFS user base is enormous, and they were promised a high quality addon. In this instance, the number of sales says very little about the quality. What should be more concerning is the number of people here, on Discord, and Facebook, saying they wanted to buy the product but will have to wait now. The fact it has sold well makes "remaining issues" that much more important. It doesn't mitigate or allay worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerosoft Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558 Posted January 28, 2022 Aerosoft Share Posted January 28, 2022 1 hour ago, ldnflightsim22 said: The fact it has sold well makes "remaining issues" that much more important. It doesn't mitigate or allay worry. Exactly why I started with "And while we of course worry about the remaining issues" The fact I mention the sales is because I was answering to the question posted: On 1/27/2022 at 9:42 AM, ldnflightsim22 said: My key question now is whether Aerosoft is satisfied with the product The simple fact is that this product sells extremely well, from the start and to this day. That only makes the matter of sorting out the sound issue more pressing. And that is why we have shipped sound recording equipment to somebody who can do a new sound recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deputy Sheriffs Eric Bakker 736 Posted January 28, 2022 Deputy Sheriffs Share Posted January 28, 2022 8 hours ago, Wolfgang Ernst said: What? Is this good or bad news? Now everything starts from scratch. Recording sounds (again??) and then writing codes . . . . OMG. Sir, you confuse me. Apparently you are not happy with current the sound set, but it seems you do not want to have it improved by the developers either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cavaricooper 1 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 I'm appreciating this old girl more each day, and am especially gratified to hear Mathijs' response. Excellent attitude and thoughtful response to a sometimes clamorous community- Well done! My confusion arises from the fact that according to ORBX I have version 1.0.1 installed (the first update). I have read about a version 1.0.2... is that just the MSFSMP version (exactly the same as ours) or is that a new version that I do not have access to yet? Ta- Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deputy Sheriffs Eric Bakker 736 Posted January 28, 2022 Deputy Sheriffs Share Posted January 28, 2022 16 minutes ago, cavaricooper said: I'm appreciating this old girl more each day, and am especially gratified to hear Mathijs' response. Excellent attitude and thoughtful response to a sometimes clamorous community- Well done! My confusion arises from the fact that according to ORBX I have version 1.0.1 installed (the first update). I have read about a version 1.0.2... is that just the MSFSMP version (exactly the same as ours) or is that a new version that I do not have access to yet? Hi Carl, The Marketplace is out of sync with the version numbers. Their 1.0.2 is in reality 1.0.1 of Aerosoft, so you didn't miss out Glad to hear that you appreciating the Twin Otter, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerosoft Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558 Posted January 28, 2022 Aerosoft Share Posted January 28, 2022 https://forum.aerosoft.com/index.php?/topic/170302-update-about-the-sound-set/#comment-1075393 4 hours ago, Wolfgang Ernst said: Exactly this feature was the only no. 1 decisive argument for me to buy the DHC-6 module for MSFS. And I tried to explain what went wrong. As open and honest as allowed. I am sorry you find that offensive and I am sorry you do not seem to fixing the issue is a good idea. There is however not a lot I can do about that as it seems clear you have already made up your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payt Laros 28 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, Mathijs Kok said: And I tried to explain what went wrong. As open and honest as allowed. I am sorry you find that offense and I am sorry you do not seem to fixing the issue is a good idea. There is however not a lot I can do about that. Hi Matthijs, maybe rerecording is a good Idea, though I think the current recodings are excellenmt as well. Will the lack of Pitch curves for the engine sounds be fixed in the new implementation? Otherwise you'll just end up with another set of weird sounding engines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerosoft Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558 Posted January 28, 2022 Aerosoft Share Posted January 28, 2022 Just now, Payt Laros said: Will the lack of Pitch curves for the engine sounds be fixed in the new implementation? Otherwise you'll just end up with another set of weird sounding engines Yes, the issue is that we simply do not have the correct recordings at this moment. The license we were able to get from Turbine Sounds was for the sound set that was delivered for P3D, and not the raw recordings. Those would have probably be suitable. As we know now (too late, as explained in https://forum.aerosoft.com/index.php?/topic/170302-update-about-the-sound-set/#comment-1075393) that simply did not work out. So what will now be done is to record a set of complete recordings of the engines from startup to full power and back to shutdown. Next to that recordings of the sounds at different prop settings. Repeat that for the inside sounds and you got the complete set we need. The inside sound then will cause most issues as we need to find a level that is acceptable to customers and still reflects the fact that the Twin Otter is almost certainly the loudest aircraft simmers will use (besides fighters). We will probably ask some of the harshest critics to assist with that. In hindsight we (I) should have decided to do around October to have the new recordings done, but as we all know hindsight is cheap and believe me, finding Twin Otters where you can do that is not easy. It is not like there are a lot around at Paderborn airport. But that mistake is mine and mine alone. So even you like the updated sounds, many people do not and I also believe they have to be changed. And they will be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnsealedKarma 52 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 Good to hear. The two Twin Otters from Nordic Seaplanes flying from Copenhagen to Aarhus have not been particularly busy lately. I’m sure they’ve got time for some sound recordings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payt Laros 28 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 47 minutes ago, Mathijs Kok said: Yes, the issue is that we simply do not have the correct recordings at this moment. The license we were able to get from Turbine Sounds was for the sound set that was delivered for P3D, and not the raw recordings. Those would have probably be suitable. As we know now (too late, as explained in https://forum.aerosoft.com/index.php?/topic/170302-update-about-the-sound-set/#comment-1075393) that simply did not work out. So what will now be done is to record a set of complete recordings of the engines from startup to full power and back to shutdown. Next to that recordings of the sounds at different prop settings. Repeat that for the inside sounds and you got the complete set we need. The inside sound then will cause most issues as we need to find a level that is acceptable to customers and still reflects the fact that the Twin Otter is almost certainly the loudest aircraft simmers will use (besides fighters). We will probably ask some of the harshest critics to assist with that. In hindsight we (I) should have decided to do around October to have the new recordings done, but as we all know hindsight is cheap and believe me, finding Twin Otters where you can do that is not easy. It is not like there are a lot around at Paderborn airport. But that mistake is mine and mine alone. So even you like the updated sounds, many people do not and I also believe they have to be changed. And they will be changed. That's fantastic news.. thanks for your dedication to getting this right can't wait to hear how it turns out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Car147 70 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 6 hours ago, Wolfgang Ernst said: What? Is this good or bad news? Now everything starts from scratch. Recording sounds (again??) and then writing codes . . . . OMG. What about the MSFS Twin Otter description in the Aerosoft store: "Full new development using all options of the platform . . . Wwise sound set with close to 300 spatially placed sounds" Exactly this feature was the only no. 1 decisive argument for me to buy the DHC-6 module for MSFS. But it seems nothing of what has promised has been done before . . .fully new development - NO . . . 300 spatially placed sounds" - NO What we got on release and even after patch are old sound sets - or poorly implemented old sound sets, that are even worse than the 4 year old sound set package for FSX Twin Otter. Now it's planned to do it for the first time right as announced because the module is selling like hot cakes, is it? I'm really p . . . o. . but: Take your time and do it 100% right - at least now! Give them a chance, they have acknowledged the issue, they are arranging for a new sound set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transair27 90 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 Yes.....given all this dialogue, I suggest the forum goes a little quieter in this respect. I guess it would be great to have an estimate of time (e.g. 2 weeks/1 month?) but then, not fair to add any further pressure. As others have said, the most important thing now is to get the sound qualities needed, test, code, test, code, test.........assess.....looking forward to 1.0.3/4 depending on source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerosoft Aerosoft Team [Inactive Account] 51558 Posted January 28, 2022 Aerosoft Share Posted January 28, 2022 As promised, I will keep people informed on this. Saturday 00:02 Right now the recording equipment is in transit and we are making the deal with the operator to get the aircraft for our use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LH4371 58 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 vor 5 Stunden , Mathijs Kok sagte: And I tried to explain what went wrong. Open and honest. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LH4371 58 Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 vor 4 Stunden , Wolfgang Ernst sagte: please, don't turn my words around. Do you want to misunderstand me? That's what I've said clearly: Take your time and do it 100% right - at least now! Well I agree that you seem to be unsatisfied either way, current sound not on par but also complaining about „recording sounds again and recoding“. Shouting in bold does not make it better. I am enjoying the Twotter especially in Scandinavia in the meantime. There are worse things than waiting for another recording for a 30 bucks addon while you can still use it. Imagine your Bugatti (slightly more expensive than the Twotter) is recalled and you cannot even drive at all Bugatti Chiron Recall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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