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Simulator Freezes When Working on LEGS


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I pre-ordered the CRJ and have been using it since March.  I have been struggling with this update for about 6 hours.  First the throttle didn't work - I worked around that.  I know a hotfix is coming - so not a big deal.  Then the next problem started.  The aircraft is not flyable for me and I am hoping someone might be able to tell me what I am doing wrong or provide some suggestions of how to further troubleshoot? Any assistance would be appreciated.

 

Symptoms:  I load into the game, POS INIT, and import a flight plan from Simbrief.  I add the STAR to the route (SIZLR3) and the approach (RNAV Z RWY13R).  There are a few duplicate waypoints, just like there would have been prior to the update.  When I try to delete the duplicates, the sim starts slowing down and then within about 10-15 seconds it freezes completely.   I have to use task manager to exit.  All other programs open continue normally, there is no error message and no error reporting in Windows.  These are the same flight plans that used to work prior to the update.  From two different airports to Palm Springs (KPSP), KSBA and KOAK.  For reference, here is an example of one plan from KOAK to KPSP:  CNDEL4 LOSHN DCT CLASN SIZLR3

 

I have tried 1) completely uninstalling and reinstalling the updated plane three times, 2) uninstalling Navigraph so as to use the NavData that ships with the CRJ, and resetting the MSFS2020 app in Windows settings.  Same results every time.  

 

I have looked here for help and I guess I am the only one with the problem?  No problems with any other planes, and I have never had freezes or crashes like this.  

 

Also, before someone comes on here and tells me that they are locking the forum because I posted this in the wrong place:  Your system of where to post is very difficult to understand.  And locking a thread is not providing support.  How about creating forum called "Problems with the Update"?  I have never seen more locked threads and scolding of customers in my life and it is unpleasant. 

 

I have 3 dump files, but since I don't know what's in those files, I have not attached them publicly.

 

EDIT #1:  Before the sim crashes, there are thick white lines that appear on the flight plan display.  (see first screenshot)

EDIT #2:  This also happens if I try to input the flight plan from scratch and remove a discontinuity. (see second screenshot where I am trying to copy the waypoint CLASN into the discontinuity above it.  The sim draws a thick white line and freezes as soon as I press LSK3.  See Task Manager in screenshot 3.)

 

 

Thank you,

 

Joe

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Hey Joe, I will have to check my sim later... But I did report a while back that RNAV RNP approaches cause the Sim to hard lock. I am not sure if this an anomaly in a sense as I was told by one of the testers this issue was fixed for the next update (current). I will tag them so they can investigate. @JRBarrett Here is my OP.

 

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1 hour ago, quasiguru said:

Hey Joe, I will have to check my sim later... But I did report a while back that RNAV RNP approaches cause the Sim to hard lock. I am not sure if this an anomaly in a sense as I was told by one of the testers this issue was fixed for the next update (current). I will tag them so they can investigate. @JRBarrett Here is my OP.

 

We fixed some issues that could cause lockups when RNP legs are involved, but there are so many permutations in these procedures and so many potential problems when trying to load an RNP procedure in the sim CRJ that trying to use an RNP approach is just asking for trouble.


As stated before, no real CRJ can fly any RNP/AR approach. KPSP is a popular destination but any r/w CRJ that goes there is limited to only the VOR GPS 13 procedure. The two RNAV RNP approaches do not even appear on the DEP/ARR page for KPSP. I just now verified this on the real aircraft.

 

Ideally, the solution would be to do the same thing in the sim, but there is no easy way to filter out RNP procedures from the Navigraph or Aerosoft databases, as they do not always include the letters “RNP” in the procedure definition. Trying to filter our RNP RNAV runs the risk of eliminating standard RNAV approaches that the CRJ can do with no problem.

 

My only suggestion is to use real world charts, and if you see that an approach is marked “RNP” or “RNP/AR” simply do not use it. If you choose to load it anyway, so do with the clear understanding that the sim will in all likelihood not load or fly it correctly. RNP procedures contain unique lateral and vertical leg types, waypoint definitions and navigational commands that neither the FMS or flight director is capable of recognizing, decoding or acting upon. Trying to edit such procedures on the LEGS page will usually not work, and could cause a freeze.

 

This is especially the case in very complex procedures like the KPSP RNAV approaches, and MOST especially the procedures at VQPR. The waypoint names will not display correctly, nor the complex curved RF legs, and the autopilot frankly will have no idea how to fly it. A sim lockup is a definite possibility.

 

It would be like trying using a GPS navigator in a car that gives all its directions in a foreign language that the driver does not understand, or trying to fuel the engine with diesel, when it is only capable of running on gasoline.

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1 hour ago, quasiguru said:

Hey Joe, I will have to check my sim later... But I did report a while back that RNAV RNP approaches cause the Sim to hard lock. I am not sure if this an anomaly in a sense as I was told by one of the testers this issue was fixed for the next update (current). I will tag them so they can investigate. @JRBarrett Here is my OP.

Thank you for your help.  Hopefully this is the issue but not sure yet.

 

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@JRBarrett  Thank you very much.  I confess that I did not realize the real  plane cannot fly those approaches.  I will keep my ears open and try some different options with other approaches to see how the CRJ responds.  I appreciate your time!

 

-Joe

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1 hour ago, JRBarrett said:

We fixed some issues that could cause lockups when RNP legs are involved, but there are so many permutations in these procedures and so many potential problems when trying to load an RNP procedure in the sim CRJ that trying to use an RNP approach is just asking for trouble.


As stated before, no real CRJ can fly any RNP/AR approach. KPSP is a popular destination but any r/w CRJ that goes there is limited to only the VOR GPS 13 procedure. The two RNAV RNP approaches do not even appear on the DEP/ARR page for KPSP. I just now verified this on the real aircraft.

 

Ideally, the solution would be to do the same thing in the sim, but there is no easy way to filter out RNP procedures from the Navigraph or Aerosoft databases, as they do not always include the letters “RNP” in the procedure definition. Trying to filter our RNP RNAV runs the risk of eliminating standard RNAV approaches that the CRJ can do with no problem.

 

My only suggestion is to use real world charts, and if you see that an approach is marked “RNP” or “RNP/AR” simply do not use it. If you choose to load it anyway, so do with the clear understanding that the sim will in all likelihood not load or fly it correctly. RNP procedures contain unique lateral and vertical leg types, waypoint definitions and navigational commands that neither the FMS or flight director is capable of recognizing, decoding or acting upon. Trying to edit such procedures on the LEGS page will usually not work, and could cause a freeze.

 

This is especially the case in very complex procedures like the KPSP RNAV approaches, and MOST especially the procedures at VQPR. The waypoint names will not display correctly, nor the complex curved RF legs, and the autopilot frankly will have no idea how to fly it. A sim lockup is a definite possibility.

 

It would be like trying using a GPS navigator in a car that gives all its directions in a foreign language that the driver does not understand, or trying to fuel the engine with diesel, when it is only capable of running on gasoline.

I would like to make a comment here.

Absolutely in agreement that no one flying a crj shoul even think to fly a rnp ar procedure as not capable, but stating we have to avoid all procedures with rnp is unrealistic.

 

According to one of latest rules all rnav approaches are changed already and will be changed year by year from “rnav rwy xx” to “rnp rwy xx”.

I would much more say to just follow up charts and keep an eye on the required navigation performance requested by each approach and make a personal auto filter :)

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1 hour ago, Andrea P. said:
2 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

I would like to make a comment here.

Absolutely in agreement that no one flying a crj shoul even think to fly a rnp ar procedure as not capable, but stating we have to avoid all procedures with rnp is unrealistic.

The sim CRJ of course can be used any way you wish. There is no FAA inspector who is going to violate you for doing a prohibited procedure. 

 

My main point though is that there is no guarantee that trying to load one of these procedures in the sim is going to work. It might well cause instability or an outright lockup of the FMS or MSFS itself, and there is really no “cure” for that issue. The sim FMS is not capable of interpreting these procedures correctly, nor will it be made so in the future. Some relatively simple RNP approaches, like the RNAV (RNP) Z 04 approach at KLGA would probably be fine, (though you will not get vertical guidance), but a complex circling approach like the two at KPSP, and most especially, the approaches at VQPR, and just not compatible in any way. These are entirely “at your own risk” procedures if you choose to try them.

 

Indeed, if the naming convention for these approaches is standardized so the they always start with “RNP” it would be much easier to prevent them from appearing in the FMS, but even then, there would probably be some complaints about them not being present. Aerosoft got a bit of negative feedback because airports with short runways are not accessible in the FMS, even though that is 100 percent realistic for the real CRJ.

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Yep got it but still not sure why CRJ is given to be not able for rnav approaches.

I’m sure Airfrance CRJ is equipped with PBN S1, so RNP APCH capable (LNAV only)….. why not developing the simulated FMS for such procedures.

 

whatever else uses RF legs I perfectly understand will not be supported as not foreseen on real. :)

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1 hour ago, Andrea P. said:

Yep got it but still not sure why CRJ is given to be not able for rnav approaches.

I’m sure Airfrance CRJ is equipped with PBN S1, so RNP APCH capable (LNAV only)….. why not developing the simulated FMS for such procedures.

 

whatever else uses RF legs I perfectly understand will not be supported as not foreseen on real. :)

Yes, there is a limited subset of LNAV RNP that some CRJs can do. There is also an available mod that can give any CRJ the ability to fly a WAAS LPV approach with vertical glide path guidance. It is not common in airlines, as it is quite expensive to install. The corporate operator I work for does have the LPV mod on our three CRJ-200s.

 

The KPSP and VQPR RNP approaches require the ability to fly not only complex RF legs, but the aircraft must be equipped with full coupled VNAV capable of flying a precise vertical path while turning, which no CRJ will ever be able to do.

 

Standard RNAV approaches are no problem - the CRJ can definitely fly those, although only to LNAV minimums as the descent must be managed manually.

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This is just so lazy. If you guys are waiting approximately an eternity to release an update, you could expext the patch to at least fix the known issues, and the known issues to be tested. But no....

 

Aerosoft customer service is on a fast track from excellent to be quite poor. At least we can hope for a fix in the next update that will be ready around Christmas, and released around Easter due to "unexpected events out of our hands, just like last time"

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On 29.5.2021 at 18:50, JRBarrett sagte:

We fixed some issues that could cause lockups when RNP legs are involved, but there are so many permutations in these procedures and so many potential problems when trying to load an RNP procedure in the sim CRJ that trying to use an RNP approach is just asking for trouble.


As stated before, no real CRJ can fly any RNP/AR approach. KPSP is a popular destination but any r/w CRJ that goes there is limited to only the VOR GPS 13 procedure. The two RNAV RNP approaches do not even appear on the DEP/ARR page for KPSP. I just now verified this on the real aircraft.

 

Ideally, the solution would be to do the same thing in the sim, but there is no easy way to filter out RNP procedures from the Navigraph or Aerosoft databases, as they do not always include the letters “RNP” in the procedure definition. Trying to filter our RNP RNAV runs the risk of eliminating standard RNAV approaches that the CRJ can do with no problem.

 

My only suggestion is to use real world charts, and if you see that an approach is marked “RNP” or “RNP/AR” simply do not use it. If you choose to load it anyway, so do with the clear understanding that the sim will in all likelihood not load or fly it correctly. RNP procedures contain unique lateral and vertical leg types, waypoint definitions and navigational commands that neither the FMS or flight director is capable of recognizing, decoding or acting upon. Trying to edit such procedures on the LEGS page will usually not work, and could cause a freeze.

 

This is especially the case in very complex procedures like the KPSP RNAV approaches, and MOST especially the procedures at VQPR. The waypoint names will not display correctly, nor the complex curved RF legs, and the autopilot frankly will have no idea how to fly it. A sim lockup is a definite possibility.

 

It would be like trying using a GPS navigator in a car that gives all its directions in a foreign language that the driver does not understand, or trying to fuel the engine with diesel, when it is only capable of running on gasoline.

The difference is that your car will not stop and the OBD lamp will light up and you will not be able to continue driving and will have to restart your vehicle by disconnecting the battery.
The problem with the freezing is a no go and should be fixed by Aerosoft. 

For your information, filling diesel into gasoline does not work, the filler neck opening is smaller for gasoline.
Gasoline into diesel is possible
 

 

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  • 1 month later...
  • Deputy Sheriffs

No point in leaving this open, as the reason why the CRJ can not fly RNP procedures has been stated twice. If you try it and the sim crashes, it's your fault. Just like trying to fly inverted, climb vertically, fly Mach 2 and lots of other things CRJs can't do in real life. While a filter may become possible later, the simple and easy fix now is simply not to fly any procedure with "RNP" in the title.

 

The OP had a reasonable question and received a correct and factual response twice. Because we believe this topic has been answered we have closed it. If you have any more questions feel free to open a new topic.

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