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CRJ having trouble flying holding patterns, or am I missing something


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Yesterday I tried some holding patterns. I wanted to be prepared for when I eventually dip my toes into Vatsim. I managed to enter the hold into the FMS just fine, and it showed up correctly as well. Set the correct direction and 1 minute legs.

The plane however seemed to be stuck in half bank mode (even when this wasn't enabled), and ended up flying way wider turns than intended (I was keeping under the speed limit of 230 knots IAS for this hold), and also cut short the legs, so it basically ended up flying circles.

 

I'm wondering if it's the plane messing up, or if I'm missing something.

 

Here are some screenshots of the issue;

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1/2 bank activates and deactivates only in HDG mode for me. Turn it on (or off) switch to HDG and right back to NAV to get the state of 1/2 Bank registered by the AP.
 

 Also when it automatically kicks in. Toggle between HDG and NAV to get it to work. 
 

That could have been the issue.  I’m not sure though, because I still haven’t tried flying holdings.  :)

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I did try turning 1/2 bank on and back off again, but didn't try switching between HDG and NAV (which would seem like a bug in itself, if that would be the fix).

Still doesn't explain why the plane is ignoring the leg length, and keeps turning so it makes a circle instead of an oval.

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It is a bug and I hope it’s been looked at but doesn’t have high priority for me as there is a workaround I can live with. 
For the length of the leg I can’t help much sorry 😕

 

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On 4/23/2021 at 11:33 AM, Mort_the_2nd said:

Thanks for trying to help. It's appreciated.

 

Can anyone who's done some holds in the CRJ confirm I'm not missing anything obvious?

 

Your setup in the FMS seems to be correct. Try flying the hold a bit slower. Around 200knots. See if that helps. And also I recommend longer legs. 10nm is a nice length. Keeps the turning to a minimum. 

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18 minutes ago, Chaxterium said:

 

Your setup in the FMS seems to be correct. Try flying the hold a bit slower. Around 200knots. See if that helps. And also I recommend longer legs. 10nm is a nice length. Keeps the turning to a minimum. 

Thanks for the info. Any ideas on if the plane should go to 30 degrees bank angle? or is the current half bank behaviour it's showing correct?

 

I noticed that if I increase the leg length (to 1.5 minutes) it increases the turn radius as well. So by that logic, to get it to 10nm it would have to be over 3 minute legs? or can I just edit the leg distance?

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Just now, Mort_the_2nd said:

Thanks for the info. Any ideas on if the plane should go to 30 degrees bank angle? or is the current half bank behaviour it's showing correct?

 

Half bank is only used in two scenarios: above FL316, or when your speed is below V2+10 with an engine failed. Aside from that the plane should turn at more than half bank. I believe it is set to turn at a rate one turn so it won't always be 30 degrees but it should be close. 

 

4 minutes ago, Mort_the_2nd said:

I noticed that if I increase the leg length (to 1.5 minutes) it increases the turn radius as well. So by that logic, to get it to 10nm it would have to be over 3 minute legs? or can I just edit the leg distance?

 

You can just edit the leg distance. The FMS lets you change either the leg distance, or the inbound leg timing. The length of the leg shouldn't really change the turn radius so I'm not sure what's going on there.

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2 minutes ago, Chaxterium said:

 

Half bank is only used in two scenarios: above FL316, or when your speed is below V2+10 with an engine failed. Aside from that the plane should turn at more than half bank. I believe it is set to turn at a rate one turn so it won't always be 30 degrees but it should be close. 

 

 

You can just edit the leg distance. The FMS lets you change either the leg distance, or the inbound leg timing. The length of the leg shouldn't really change the turn radius so I'm not sure what's going on there.

Really odd then that for me, the plane was only banking at 15 degrees, widely overshooting the turns. I was doing the circuit at 12000ft. Was expecting the plane to go to 30 degrees to make the turn (or at least stick closer to it).

 

Increasing the leg time increases the turn radius, I didn't try increasing the leg length. Might well be that that leaves the turn radius alone.

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1 hour ago, Mort_the_2nd said:

Really odd then that for me, the plane was only banking at 15 degrees, widely overshooting the turns. I was doing the circuit at 12000ft. Was expecting the plane to go to 30 degrees to make the turn (or at least stick closer to it).

 

Increasing the leg time increases the turn radius, I didn't try increasing the leg length. Might well be that that leaves the turn radius alone.

 

It shouldn't matter whether you increase the leg length or leg time. Neither should have an effect on the turning radius. The autopilot will always turn the plane at a rate one turn. Perhaps there is an issue here then.

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1 hour ago, Chaxterium said:

 

It shouldn't matter whether you increase the leg length or leg time. Neither should have an effect on the turning radius. The autopilot will always turn the plane at a rate one turn. Perhaps there is an issue here then.

Any specific place where I should file a bug report? Or will this forum post do?

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  • 1 month later...

Tested this some more with version 1.0.5.0, and it seems a lot better behaved.

 

If there's a sharp angle entering the hold the CRJ takes a weird route into the hold, but sticking it on heading mode for a bit to get a more reasonable entry angle solves this. Flew the hold just fine after that

 

Context; flying into the ILS Rwy 18 at KMYR (Myrtle Beach Intl.) from the CRE transition, entering the hold at UXDEP.

The plane went into a right hand turn, so I think it wanted to do a 270 degree right turn.

 

To be fair, this might be entirely realistic. I don't have enough knowledge to say if this behaviour is correct or not.

Overall very happy with the fix though.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Quenteagle said:

That's the correct way to enter a pattern from where you are. Look for "teardrop entry" and that will give you an idea.

 

I figured as much, and that's exactly what I did on heading mode.

 

Only question left; should the autopilot deal with that for me, or is the 'go to heading mode for the entry' the correct procedure?

I'm fine with either, just curious what the real plane would do in this case.

Already really happy with the changes in 1.0.5.0

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1 hour ago, Mort_the_2nd said:

I figured as much, and that's exactly what I did on heading mode.

 

Only question left; should the autopilot deal with that for me, or is the 'go to heading mode for the entry' the correct procedure?

I'm fine with either, just curious what the real plane would do in this case.

Already really happy with the changes in 1.0.5.0

 

The real plane, and the sim, will fly the entire hold (including the proper entry procedure) for you in NAV mode. Heading mode is never used for a hold.

 

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10 hours ago, Chaxterium said:

The real plane, and the sim, will fly the entire hold (including the proper entry procedure) for you in NAV mode. Heading mode is never used for a hold.

Then there's still a small issue remaining on the hold entry then. Check my post 3 posts up for details.

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3 hours ago, Mort_the_2nd said:

Then there's still a small issue remaining on the hold entry then. Check my post 3 posts up for details.

 

I've read all of your posts and @Quenteagle mentioned that that plane was doing the correct entry. From what you wrote I agree. A RIGHT turn is the correct entry procedure at UXDEP from CRE. The plane should have made a right turn to approximately 327° and flown that heading for 30-60 seconds and then it should have made another right turn to the inbound track of 177°. So with this in mind, unless I'm missing something I'm not sure what you think the issue is.

 

Cheers!

 

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6 hours ago, Chaxterium said:

I've read all of your posts and @Quenteagle mentioned that that plane was doing the correct entry. From what you wrote I agree. A RIGHT turn is the correct entry procedure at UXDEP from CRE. The plane should have made a right turn to approximately 327° and flown that heading for 30-60 seconds and then it should have made another right turn to the inbound track of 177°. So with this in mind, unless I'm missing something I'm not sure what you think the issue is.

 

Cheers!

A slight right turn would have been correct, but the plane was making (and staying in) a continuous right turn. It should only have turned approximately 30 degrees.

 

I've tried to draw it (excuse my terrible drawing skills).

 

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Light blue is what (from the graph @Quenteagle posted) I understand the plane should do. Teardrop entry into the hold.

In red is what the plane was doing (I took it out of NAV and corrected to the blue pattern with heading mode before it could finish it).

 

Maybe I'll test it again some day soon, and let the AP do its thing. Should be able to screenshot the path it takes with Littlenavmap or a tool like that.

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Just tested this approach and hold again, and this time it worked as expected. No idea why it went haywire last time I tried to do this one.

 

Here's the result of this most recent test. Looks pretty darned good. The CRJ only turned the hold a bit too tight.

 

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