JeremyGolf70 2 Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 According to the topic made by Mathijs Kok about the problem for airport above 6000ft, I want to say something. I am a resident of Kunming, a beautiful Chinese city. The altitude of our airport(Kunming Changshui Intl Airport, KMG/ZPPP) is 2103.5m/6901ft, which is determined as a high elevation airport. This airport is opened in 2012 but you can only see the old Wujiaba Intl Airport in MSFS. An interesting fact is that(although I am not very sure), Changshui Airport(New ZPPP) might be the highest airport which can take A380 aircraft into service. I currently have no solid evidence to indicate if the CRJ700 aircraft have ever take service to ZPPP. What made things worse is that all CRJ aircrafts in China are retired, which means there is no chance to see any CRJ in Kunming any longer. However, I have solid evidence to show that CRJ200 have made commercial flight for old ZPPP/Wujiaba airport, the elevation of which is 1891m/6204ft, higher than 6000ft. China Yunnan Airlines, whose base is in Kunming, Yunnan Province had six CRJ200s to make flight to many destinations departing from ZPPP. These CRJs took into flight until 2013. Five of them are retired and one was crashed（B-3072, China Eastern Flight 5210 on 21st, Nov, 2004). As a resident of Kunming, I wish you could make the elevation of PFB up to 2300m/7500ft, which is a little higher than Lijiang Airport, Yunnan(ZPLJ), the airport I believe the highest altitude the CRJ200s have ever reached. One more fun fact. The top 4 highest commercial airports are all in China. As for these airports, they use high elevation versions of A319 or Boeing 737-700. Also, Airbus Industry have made the test flight with their A320neo to ZUDC(4411m/14472ft, and you can also find this airport in MSFS), the highest commercial airport in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyGolf70 2 Posted April 10, 2021 Author Share Posted April 10, 2021 Well. Here are some photos of these CRJ200s I took at Changshui Airport(New ZPPP, once again, the elevation of this airport is 2103.5m/6901ft) in the year of 2014. They were no longer in service at that time. To make things clear, these aircrafts belonged to China Yunnan Airlines(中国云南航空）. In the year of 2002, this company became a branch of China Eastern Airlines（中国东方航空）(That is also why the crashed B-3072 was identified as China Eastern Airlines), which is now known as China Eastern Yunnan Airlines（中国东方航空 云南公司）. Please login to display this image. Please login to display this image. Please login to display this image. Please login to display this image. Please login to display this image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternT3 402 Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 11 hours ago, JeremyGolf70 said: I wish you could make the elevation of PFB up to 2300m/7500ft I'm sure if they could they would, re-reading what Mathijs said and the way I see it, the issue is they haven't found official data for the CRJ takeoff and landing speeds for airports over 6000ft. therefore if they could make the EFB work for higher airports, it would give the wrong speeds and that's where issues happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRBarrett 675 Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 CRJs definitely can and do operate from high altitude airports. The most popular one in the USA is Aspen, Colorado, KASE at 7,873 feet, which has about 10 to 15 CRJ-700 flights each day, operated by Skywest on behalf of United and American. The reason the sim CRJ EFB V speed settings only work for airports below 6000 feet is that was the highest altitude listed in the standard CRJ performance charts available to the developers. If data for higher altitude V speeds can be obtained, it would be added to the EFB, but it may be that such data is proprietary. Skywest may have to pay Bombardier extra fees for high altitude takeoff performance charts specifically for their Aspen operations, and that data is not included by default in a generic CRJ performance manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRJay 427 Posted April 10, 2021 Share Posted April 10, 2021 Our Bombardier QRH Vol. 1 PERF section has V-speeds and thrust settings (normal and assumed temp) up to 10.000ft and a range of OAT. I can not guarantee but am fairly certain it is not proprietary since I don't think our CRJs have ever operated anywhere over 2000ft elevation. And no way would they spend the extra money to get that data :P. I can not share the full document but might be able to put together just those specific charts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deputy Sheriffs Herman 1591 Posted April 11, 2021 Deputy Sheriffs Share Posted April 11, 2021 11 hours ago, JRBarrett said: CRJs definitely can and do operate from high altitude airports. The most popular one in the USA is Aspen, Colorado, KASE at 7,873 feet, which has about 10 to 15 CRJ-700 flights each day, operated by Skywest on behalf of United and American. The reason the sim CRJ EFB V speed settings only work for airports below 6000 feet is that was the highest altitude listed in the standard CRJ performance charts available to the developers. If data for higher altitude V speeds can be obtained, it would be added to the EFB, but it may be that such data is proprietary. Skywest may have to pay Bombardier extra fees for high altitude takeoff performance charts specifically for their Aspen operations, and that data is not included by default in a generic CRJ performance manual. I know from personal experience that for that kind of data, as well as single engine climb data to get lower minimums at some of the other airports in that part of the Rockies, they did indeed. I understand it wasn't cheap, so they understandably try to keep it close-hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRBarrett 675 Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 From what CRJay said, apparently basic info for higher altitude airports is in the manuals his company uses, but Skywest would also need custom performance data specific to that airport and runway since there are terrain constraints as well. Our company operates CRJ-200s in a 19 seat configuration, which means we could never load them anywhere close to maximum zero fuel weight even if we wanted to. But the MZFW is part of the type certificate. We wanted to use a lower “official” MZFW, which would legally move the aircraft from weight category “D” to category “C”, which would allow lower minimums for a couple of RNAV approaches at airports we regularly fly to. Bombardier was happy to help. It required only a letter from their engineering department stating that the “MZFW for aircraft serial number xxxx is now yyyyy pounds”. But that signed document cost several thousand $$ (per airplane). When you need custom data from the manufacturer, it can get very expensive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesOReilly 314 Posted April 11, 2021 Share Posted April 11, 2021 @JRBarrett It gets real expensive quick even when it is a 1977 Beech Sierra "Oh you want approval to use that range of parts....no problem... We need an ENG Fee....." Or the door handle used off an 1960/70's car but needs a stamp :)....cause the stamp made it magically more powerful..... Oh Aviation.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyGolf70 2 Posted April 11, 2021 Author Share Posted April 11, 2021 Thank you for all your information. This is really a problem for such a high elevation. Actually, that reminds me most of heavy aircrafts for intercontinental flights cannot take off at MZFW, such as the China Eastern flights from Kunming(ZPPP) to Paris(LFPG) and to Sydney(YSSY) with A330-200. In the future, it seems that these flights will be replaced by Boeing 787-9 which have more powerful engines. In the history of Changshui Airport, the aircrafts served for commercial flights includes A380(regular flights between Kunming and Beijing by China Southern), Boeing747-8(temporary flights between Beijing and Kunming by Air China, and sometimes the flights with our chairman on board), Boeing 747 Freight(when there is a particular business), Boeing 777s(to Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou and Bangkok, infrequently), A350s(to Beijing and Guangzhou), and so many many A330s. All these aircrafts fly short-range flights to Kunming, excluding 747F which may carry pigs, giraffes, etc. One A380 by Emirates made an alternative landing to Changshui Airport due to medical emergency. China Eastern Yunnan Airlines used to operate Boeing 767-300ERs equipped with RR engines and they always reduce their MZFW to fly over mountains during take off. As for A330 on intercontinental flights, they also reduces its MZFW. I'm not sure if they will do the same with their new Boeing 787s. As for other high elevation airports in China, most of them are operated with high elevation version of 737-700s and A319s (including the aircraft involved in Sichuan Airlines flight 8633 incident on 14th, May, 2018, the plane of which lost its windshield). However, Lhasa Airport(ZULS, 3569.6m/11711ft) has also operated A330s(high elevation version), A340s(retired now) and Boeing757s(also retired). However, I'm not very sure if they pay for this additional information for flying dozens of high elevation airports(like ZPPP, ZPLJ, etc.) and ultra high elevation airports(like ZUDC, ZUKD, ZULS, ZUBD, etc.) for these aircrafts. If they do so, that is really a lot of money. Perhaps, as Boeing and Airbus has sold their A319s, 737-700s and A330s as high elevation version, these data are already included in their manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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