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EDDB - ILS on southern runway not working


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Hello,

approaching your new BER-Scenery (which is really good looking) I discovered a possible bug. I was flying on Vatsim, cleared for the ILS 25L. Unfortunately the CRJ700 was not receiving the localizer. Therefore I had to switch to a visual approach. Earlier that day I was approaching 25R already - catching the localizer without any problems. After the flight with the visual approach I got into the CJ4, trying to see, what I did wrong on the approach. But for some reasons I was unable to receive the localizer for 25L and 07R on this aircraft as well. Again 25R and 07L worked just fine. I used the frequencies published in the Navigraph charts - which are identical to the frequencies in your manual. 

Kind Regards

Thomas

Edit: Now I do receive the localizer, but only when passing approx 100ft AGL. 
 

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Yeah happened to me as well while testing the airport tonight. This is likely because the simulator's data doesn't have the runway. It believes it's still Schoenfeld. I hoped Navigraph's data would solve the issue but it does not (but it does add the arrivals that are also missing in base MSFS).

 

 

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Actually, I have to correct what I said in the post above. It was the result of superficial testing and incorrect.

 

I have found what the issue is by going deeper into my testing. The ILS for runway 07L (110.7) and 25R (109.9) are mostly correct, meaning that they can be tuned and approached from the correct direction. The ILS for Runway 25L (109.5) and Runway 07R (109.7) actually exist and transmit, but are directional and inversed. Meaning their signal points east for 07R and west for 25L. The result is that they won't work and will appear not tuned if you approach from the correct direction. They will appear regularly and they will tune "correctly" if you approach them from the wrong direction. Of course, they're unusable. I believe the localizers should be tunable from all directions anyway, am I wrong? 

 

The default scenery from MSFS has all ILS correctly implemented and facing the right direction. The localizers can actually be tuned from all directions, but the needles on the ILS will face the correct ways for all runways, which I believe is the correct behavior?

 

I have tested this for both the default A320 and the A32NX by FlyByWire. Both returned identical results.

 

In addition to that, this scenery has only the four ILS selectable and "NDBDME" for runway 07L (not sure what that is, it doesn't appear in Navigraph or NavDataPro), as seen in the image attached. The default scenery also has LOC approaches for all runways, RNAV for all runways, and VORDME for 25L and 7R, matching with both Navigraph and NavDataPro. All of those are missing here. 

 

All STARs are also missing both in the default sim and in Limesim's scenery, and the only way to get them is Navigraph. Said STARs are also missing in NavDataPro's charts (and in the internal database of the CRJ, which I imagine is also based on NavDataPro) Navigraph does not fix the incorrect ILS for runway 25L and 07R, unfortunately. I have not found a way to fix those besides removing the scenery.

Screenshot - 3_24_2021 , 7_36_33 AM.jpg

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  • Deputy Sheriffs

Thanks for the in-depth checking guys! Apparently the testing of the navaids and ILS functionality didn't happen as it should have. :(

 

Working on a small fix now and expect to send it around in a while.

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27 minutes ago, Sasa said:

Thanks for the in-depth checking guys! Apparently the testing of the navaids and ILS functionality didn't happen as it should have. :(

 

Working on a small fix now and expect to send it around in a while.

 

You're very welcome. It's a great scenery otherwise, so I'm glad to see you're on it :D

 

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@Sasa A bit of an addition: if you want a relatively quick and easy way to test at least the availability of the localizers and the directions of the ILS, you can simply spawn somewhere close to the airport, tune the frequency you want to test, and then just move around in slew mode to see where it tunes and where it does not. Then you can look at the needles to see the direction of the ILS (the small cross is above the center of the navigation display in ILS mode if you're approaching from the right direction, below if you're approaching from the opposite direction).

 

That being said, I actually do not know for sure if the localizers should be tunable from directions other than the front. It depends whether Berlin's localizers are back course capable or not. Further research would indicate that not all ILS systems support it, and I can't find specific info on Berlin. Perhaps @The Dude could help here. 

 

Also, the best way to do the testing I found it is with the A32NX instead of the default A320, because the default one may trick you into believing the ILS is available as its name will appear in the Radnav page of the MCDU regardless of whether it's tuned or not (the needle and data won't appear in the navigation display in ILS mode if it's not tuned). With the A32NX not only the needles and data don't appear if the ILS is not tuned, but its name doesn't appear at all in the RADNAV page. 

 

This is tuned, correct course

 

849279474_Screenshot-3_24_20219_49_16AM.thumb.jpg.47442fbbbd266f76cc30b9f4b5448adf.jpg

 

This is tuned, back course (wrong if the ILS isn't back course capable)

 

1769270070_Screenshot-3_24_20219_57_09AM.thumb.jpg.c319ea5ba943138e495b6ca4624d60c3.jpg

 

This is not tuned.

 

 417398038_Screenshot-3_24_20219_49_32AM.thumb.jpg.716c76442f33320de35d22948101ff8b.jpg

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  • Deputy Sheriffs

Thanks again for the investigating this bug that shouldn't have been there in the first place! This is much appreciated!

 

Attached is a little bugfix for you to check. Please report if this helps.

EDIT (2021-03-15): Update is now available through the update described below!

Installation: Unpack it into your BER installation folder, which is likely something like: C:\MSFS2020\Community\limesim-ber

Do overwrite the two previously existing files (backup recommended!)

 

Changelog:

  • Removed all navaids from the airport itself so all navigation is provided by MSFS, not the add-on. The sim with its regular updates is likely a better source of navaid updates than a rather "static" addon-scenery.
  • Accidental "approach exclusion tag" removed, so they should be all back in place.

Checked the approach in the flight planning windows. They are now all there including RNAV and LOC.

Also checked the ILS functionality and it seems to be working as it should now:

 

image.png

 

Not sure myself if reversed approaches should be possible for BER. But I very much doubt that because there's an ILS on each side - so there would be no point in it.

 

As soon as we have a confirmation from you guys it's working, we make this part of the release and also make it available in the AS Updater.

 

Bests,

Sascha

 

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6 hours ago, Sasa said:

Thanks again for the investigating this bug that shouldn't have been there in the first place! This is much appreciated!

 

Attached is a little bugfix for you to check. Please report if this helps.

Installation: Unpack it into your BER installation folder, which is likely something like: C:\MSFS2020\Community\limesim-ber

Do overwrite the two previously existing files (backup recommended!)

 

Changelog:

  • Removed all navaids from the airport itself so all navigation is provided by MSFS, not the add-on. The sim with its regular updates is likely a better source of navaid updates than a rather "static" addon-scenery.
  • Accidental "approach exclusion tag" removed, so they should be all back in place.

Checked the approach in the flight planning windows. They are now all there including RNAV and LOC.

Also checked the ILS functionality and it seems to be working as it should now:

 

image.png

 

Not sure myself if reversed approaches should be possible for BER. But I very much doubt that because there's an ILS on each side - so there would be no point in it.

 

As soon as we have a confirmation from you guys it's working, we make this part of the release and also make it available in the AS Updater.

 

Bests,

Sascha

limesim-ber_Navaid_Temporary_Fix_2020-03-24.zip 88.88 kB · 9 downloads

 

Thanks for the fix. I'll test it tonight :D

 

Also yes, I agree that back course is probably not supported by EDDB's ILS, mostly because they have to be rather new equipment, and back course, as far as I know, is mostly supported by older types of equipment. I'm ready to be corrected by more experienced pilots tho :D

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I have discovered an important problem that needs to be solved

I've already failed twice to land on the 25L via ILS, he does get a signal on the plane but when I land afterwards, I go meters down into the countryside next to the track

if you look at the map on the world map, I have to notice that all 4 ILS points are not on the runway but clearly off

will this problem also be solved with this fix or is this another problem that has yet to be solved?

 

I hope the English is easy to understand but google doesn't get it any better and my German is much better 😉 

 

Microsoft Flight Simulator Screenshot 2021.03.23 - 23.57.26.55.png

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  • Deputy Sheriffs
1 hour ago, Onkelpuh said:

I have discovered an important problem that needs to be solved

I've already failed twice to land on the 25L via ILS, he does get a signal on the plane but when I land afterwards, I go meters down into the countryside next to the track

if you look at the map on the world map, I have to notice that all 4 ILS points are not on the runway but clearly off

will this problem also be solved with this fix or is this another problem that has yet to be solved?

 

I hope the English is easy to understand but google doesn't get it any better and my German is much better 😉 

 

Microsoft Flight Simulator Screenshot 2021.03.23 - 23.57.26.55.png

 

Is this with the fix above or without?

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Vor 1 Stunde, Sasa sagte:

 

Ist dies mit der Korrektur oben oder ohne?

Ich habe nicht in der Lage, die Lösung zu testen, aber
deshalb fragte ich, ob er auch das Problem behebt, werde ich es immer noch testen und Feedback geben

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  • Deputy Sheriffs

Guys, thanks a million!

And shame on Abriael for scratching up shiny new runway surface. :)

 

I'll let you know once the new file is available in the AS Updater.

 

ILS locations on map:

I assume these are the DME localizer (=antenna) locations, which MSFS shows instead of the actual ILS glideslope end. May be a bug in MSFS but Asobo may also have they reasons doing it that way. Not sure...

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  • Deputy Sheriffs

FYI:

The update is now available through the Aerosoft Updater:

 

image.png

 

Bests,

Sascha

 

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do you get the FIX anywhere without the AS Updater?
Unfortunately, it doesn't work for me because the mods are not in the original community folder because I use Mod Linker

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Bedeutet das, dass ich mehrere Mods hin und her kopieren und vor allem umbenennen muss, damit der AS Updater sie erkennt und aktualisiert? große :(

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1 hour ago, Onkelpuh said:

do you get the FIX anywhere without the AS Updater?
Unfortunately, it doesn't work for me because the mods are not in the original community folder because I use Mod Linker

Are you sure the AS Updater is not working with the add-on linker? It does for me - it sees the symlink in the community folder and treats it as if the actual scenery was there.

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What I saw is, that whan you have your scenery in another folder and use the scereny add-on linker, sometimes an update would create a new folder with all files in it, that replaces the symlink folder with a "real" one. Just copy that new folder to your add-on scenery place and overwrite everything and then create a new link with the add-on linker tool. 

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  • Deputy Sheriffs

Yes, the AS Update will remove a symbolic link you have in your "Community" folder, create a new folder and place the updated files in it.

 

As described by Beat578 you need to move that newly created folder above the source folder of the add-on.

 

As nice tools like the MSFS Add-On Linker are (I use it myself to manage the 350 GB of add-ons I have), but you really need to know what you are doing. You must be aware, that add-on installers/updaters do not take any such tools into consideration, but assume to be in the "Community" folder, and nowhere else.

 

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