Trim Issues at Cruise (Not Icing/Icing??) Re-Opened Since Prior Closed w/o Resolve

[DFWSupertrooper 137]

The Stab Trim climbing on its own at cruise is either not related to icing or icing is happening whether or not it has been disabled in the sim.  I was cursing along happy as a clam at FL360, when I noticed my speed was dropping slowly.  Clear skies, NO CLOUDS at that FL, icing had been set to 'Visual Effects Only' and Anti/Ice all turned on at takeoff.  Flying LIML-EGCC.  Stab Trim was climbing and I could not maintain altitude after the issue began.  Tried changing to FL300 for continuing.  Was able to hold but at a horrible 8 degree pitch and 220K.  Stab Trim was auto-set and holding at 5.2.

 

If this is icing, then how come turning off icing didn't resolve the issue?

 

PS >> PLEASE DO NOT CLOSE THE TOPIC IF THE ISSUE IS NOT CERTIFIED AS RESOLVED!

[DFWSupertrooper 137]

2 minutes ago, DFWSupertrooper said:

The Stab Trim climbing on its own at cruise is either not related to icing or icing is happening whether or not it has been disabled in the sim.  I was cursing along happy as a clam at FL360, when I noticed my speed was dropping slowly.  Clear skies, NO CLOUDS at that FL, icing had been set to 'Visual Effects Only' and Anti/Ice all turned on at takeoff.  Flying LIML-EGCC.  Stab Trim was climbing and I could not maintain altitude after the issue began.  Tried changing to FL300 for continuing.  Was able to hold but at a horrible 8 degree pitch and 220K.  Stab Trim was auto-set and holding at 5.2.

 

If this is icing, then how come turning off icing didn't resolve the issue?

 

PS >> PLEASE DO NOT CLOSE THE TOPIC IF THE ISSUE IS NOT CERTIFIED AS RESOLVED!

 

The only thing that I can do to end the faulty trim is to begin a long slow descent using V/S descent aimed at a point in the STAR and start slowly descending.  While in descent the trim seems to manage itself appropriately.

[metzgergva 210]

Please see also:

 

[DFWSupertrooper 137]

13 hours ago, metzgergva said:

Please see also:

 

 

Any chance you guys might just put out a hotfix completely removing the icing for now (until Asobo fixes the icing in-sim)?  thanks for all you do.  Other than this annoyance (especially with the fact that weather's not even accurate now for four days so I can't find safe areas anymore), this A/C is phenomenal and a real joy to fly.

[metzgergva 210]

We have no control on the icing effect of the sim. When I did my tests I saw that switching both AI switches to on helps if you do it immediately. Now is the ice warning coming on correctly. It does to to some rules, but that my not be the same as the sim puts it on. 
If you fly with real weather there is not much we can do right now except keeping AI on as precaution.

if you use the weather themes you can manipulate ISA temperature to have a warmer day...

[DFWSupertrooper 137]

On 3/22/2021 at 2:17 AM, metzgergva said:

We have no control on the icing effect of the sim. When I did my tests I saw that switching both AI switches to on helps if you do it immediately. Now is the ice warning coming on correctly. It does to to some rules, but that my not be the same as the sim puts it on. 
If you fly with real weather there is not much we can do right now except keeping AI on as precaution.

if you use the weather themes you can manipulate ISA temperature to have a warmer day...

 

I hear what you're saying regarding the recommendation to use A/I.  I do, every single flight from push back to landing, and the trim issue happens regardless.  The only way I can avoid it is to a) make sure I fly in warmer temperatures when using live weather; or b) use a preset like few clouds.  The issue is happening even when I've flown through no visible clouds at higher altitude above clouds in some cases in live weather (maybe the MeteoBlue data is reporting icing but the cloud draw isn't occurring at the same exact times/areas??).

 

Regardless, with A/I ON during the entire flight, this should not be happening irrespective to choice of weather.  I should be able to fly through rain in icing conditions with A/I on, ESPECIALLY when I've turned the sim to visual only as an extra precaution.  Not bitching...just saying.  You guys, I'm sure will release a patch to fix this somehow soon.  Keep up the good work.  It's the best aircraft in the sim, regardless of a couple of bugs (the turning thing being the other).

[Sonosusto 13]

3 hours ago, DFWSupertrooper said:

 

I hear what you're saying regarding the recommendation to use A/I.  I do, every single flight from push back to landing, and the trim issue happens regardless.  The only way I can avoid it is to a) make sure I fly in warmer temperatures when using live weather; or b) use a preset like few clouds.  The issue is happening even when I've flown through no visible clouds at higher altitude above clouds in some cases in live weather (maybe the MeteoBlue data is reporting icing but the cloud draw isn't occurring at the same exact times/areas??).

 

Regardless, with A/I ON during the entire flight, this should not be happening irrespective to choice of weather.  I should be able to fly through rain in icing conditions with A/I on, ESPECIALLY when I've turned the sim to visual only as an extra precaution.  Not bitching...just saying.  You guys, I'm sure will release a patch to fix this somehow soon.  Keep up the good work.  It's the best aircraft in the sim, regardless of a couple of bugs (the turning thing being the other).

 

I am with you there. If I fly just short hops in tropical areas its actually a blast to fly, even when the ILS is pitching down into the water. ;) It is definitely up there with my favorite planes along with the JF Arrow (that also has a kink or two to fix). I tried to fly again, this time out of KDEN to KPDX and everything was fine until about 25,000ft. Could barely gain any speed, AoA kept trimming up, A/P was disengaged, A/I was on from the beginning of the flight.

I hope it's fixed soon, too. I am sure it will.

[DFWSupertrooper 137]

So here's some ugly news...just flying in Few Clouds weather preset (NO live weather and nowhere neat any clouds let alone those holding moisture), Icing set to Visual Only, Anti-Ice all ON, FL370, all was fine until over the Baltic for a while.  About midpoint thru my journey from EKCH-UUWW, trim issues began and A/C began sliding out of the sky as per the original problem.  This is the first time it has happened without live weather on (I thought I had found a safe way to operate the A/C without the issue). 

 

Again, if it's icing, something is clearly wrong here.  There is NO WAY I should have icing taking place in this setup.  Could it be something else?  I setup the A/C appropriately as far as weights, etc.  90% of my flights since avoiding live weather have worked fine.  There is nothing different about this one except the colder air being this far north (but again static clear skies).  Virtually no wind to affect performance (4K T/W).

 

I drop to F220 and the A/C levels off and flies normally.  Could anything else be changing weight distribution mid-flight?  If not, the only answer is that icing needs to be completely coded out for now until Asobo fixes the icing in the sim and you guys figure out how to apply it where switching it off or avoiding it works.  I don't know what else to tell you.

[metzgergva 210]

I could clearly identify the issue with playing on ISA temperature during flights in different visual weathers to judge, and it looks to me that MSFS is generating the incorrect weight adding as ice effect. 
When I turned on wing and cowling AI it took a bit of time but then the effect dissapeared.

[DFWSupertrooper 137]

17 hours ago, metzgergva said:

I could clearly identify the issue with playing on ISA temperature during flights in different visual weathers to judge, and it looks to me that MSFS is generating the incorrect weight adding as ice effect. 
When I turned on wing and cowling AI it took a bit of time but then the effect dissapeared.

 

How is it adding any ice effect when: a)I have icing set to visual only in the sim; b) I have anti-ice engaged from takeoff roll to landing; c) I am flying without any weather effects added (not using live weather - only few clouds)??  I don't understand how you can simply turn on Anti-Ice and boom...you say it's fixed??  The effect doesn't disappear for me until I descend to below around F250, and truly the effect shouldn't be there at all given my previous selections (any ONE of my three selected flying options should eliminate the icing issue - I do ALL and don't seem to avoid it unless I fly pretty much south of a line running Canada, Scandinavia and still do the other things to prevent it as well).  It's like the A/C only needs REALLY cold air to stop flying.  Please forgive me if I sound frustrated, but I am only trying to help you guys see what the actual issue is - it's not my intent to argue.  

 

The bottom line is...NO icing should occur if I have icing set to visual only.  NO problematic icing should occur if I have my A/Ice engaged the entire flight.  Are those correct statements?

[metzgergva 210]

 Please see the following FAQ on this subject.

 

[DFWSupertrooper 137]

25 minutes ago, metzgergva said:

 Please see the following FAQ on this subject.

 

 

This is a great post and I am thankful for the explanation. particularly the acknowledgement that the MFS setting is apparently not working (which I know may be fixed soon by Asobo), but your post indicates that if you use the A/Ice at CRZ, you should be fine.  This is NOT THE CASE!  I am using A/Ice during the ENTIRE FLIGHT on EVERY FLIGHT, not only when I "see a cloud" coming.  At some point, irrespective of this, the A/C still may begin to have trim issues mid-flight at cruise altitude.  It happens on every third flight or so, unless I stay in temperate or tropical locations for every flight.  Flying across Canada or Scandinavia, it can happen despite A/Ice being active the ENTIRE FLIGHT.

 

So maybe the fact is simply that the A/Ice is not working properly??  If it is for you, I'd love to know how.  

 

So that we can eliminate you thinking I'm taking incorrect action, let me walk you thru my process once a flight has been started: 1) I pre-flight the A/C as one would normally do according to checklist. 2) After I reach the hold short line of the runway and after I obtain clearance for T/O, I activate the Chrono, activate all three A/Ice switches, turn on landing lights, and hit the TO/GA button to initialize the FD.  3) I take off normally, and begin climb to cruise (A/Ice is STILL ON).  4) I level off at CRZ (most flights between F350-370) without issue and allow the AP to fly normally.  The A/Ice remains ON the entire flight until either I have descended down below a point where the TAT is above 0C, OR I have in fact landed (if I forgot).

 

Most flights, this works, but again, on most flights in colder climates (Canada, etc), the A/C will (mid-flight) just start trimming up to 10-12 and lose airspeed, drop about 5,000 and regain itself, only to do it all over again.  A/Ice is ON THE ENTIRE TIME.  Again, I am not using outside weather at all, so that is not a factor here.

 

Sorry for the all-caps, I am trying to emphasize that the A/Ice is engaged, so your post is not accurate for me at least.  You keep insisting that A/Ice works and I promise that it is not 100% (if icing is what's happening to me as you suspect).

[metzgergva 210]

Well I have done multiple flights in variable icing conditions where they typically happen, like 8-12.000 ft with clouds and I have varied ISA in the weather menu to see effect and countermeasure.

You also have the possibility to change to developer mode and aside other options there is a slider where you can play ice-maker and you will see how the aircraft reacts. Now which time it takes and how strong it relases, I leave it to you to check out.

 

I can say that I was kind of shocked that the CRJ puts on so much ice that it just simply cannot fly anymore. It is more than the full load of fuel and passengers.

 

As for your statement of of keeping AI ON, I clearly said in my FAQ that this is not a cure for higher altitude. With AI on, especially the wing AI, the N1 of the engine is reduced by the FADEC controller to avoid overheating of the jet part. You will see drops of 5+% when you switch it on and that is resulting in significant loss of thrust power, which the CRJ needs to climb to your cruise altitude. The CRJ is not and has not been designed to be a high level flyer as it is designed as a regional jet. I know it is used in the US for some low volume longer routes, but his capability is great up to FL360, preferable not more.

 

Rest assured that the CRJ is flying like the real aircraft and matching climb and cruise performance as long as that icing and AI counter is used properly. Unfortunately the icing model is not adequate to real world.
 

And please recognize that this is a simulation and the real world and obvious the new atmospheric model may need some fine tuning but certainly needs to stop to overload an aircraft with ice weight which in real life will never happen.

[DFWSupertrooper 137]

OK, so @metzgergva I went back and slowly re-read your above-referenced post.  If what I'm understanding is correct, I think what you're saying is that despite having A/Ice active (ore more appropriately because A/Ice is on), I may lose power and not realize it to a point where the A/C cannot maintain CRZ at that FL because the A/C is getting extra weight regardless of the settings.  Is that what you're saying??

 

If so, obviously we all recognize that's a bug (on Asobo because it's their icing setting that's not working properly), combined with a very tight performance envelope in icing for the CRJ.  So, the only remedy until Asobo makes it possible to actually turn off icing, is to add more power if this occurs and potentially select a lower FL from ATC.  Once Asobo fixes the icing setting, then I can just turn it off.  Sound about right??

[metzgergva 210]

Do you think that ATC knows what your plane is capable of? Yes they have some table and most certainly experience, but they don't in details and there is no harm to ask for a lower FL when you know you cannot make it. The option of more power in CLB is limited as the throttle is typically in the climb dent and there is not more available.

And if you switch AI on in CLB, you may not - you will loose climb capacity and you can see it by the reduction of N1% when you activate the switch. You, as pilot, are responsible of staying in the envelop and recognize the warning signals the plane is giving you.

[DFWSupertrooper 137]

Thank you for all your help.  This is the finest A/C in MFS for sure and I am really enjoying the hands-on feel of it as opposed to total auto-flight.  It definitely has a learning curve but that's what I love about it.  You guys did a bang-up job.  Thanks!