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A320 IAE - SLOW CLIMB/CI INFO


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Here is the new support topic as requested... 

 

Below you will see the pictures of the flight (my recorder is not working properly for some reason)

 

The load was in one of the pictures as well  (180pax/15,000lbs cargo/27,000lbs fuel)

 

Route KDEN to KLGA / Denver to LaGuardia  A320 IAE UAL303

YOKES7 CHICI HAAND ONL Q122 FOD BAE CRL CXR ETG MIP4

Dep rwy 34L*  Cost index initially 85 / Switched to 25 CI midway through the climb. 

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Please start from bottom picture, work your way up

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1 hour ago, flyingman32 said:

Here is the new support topic as requested... 

 

Below you will see the pictures of the flight (my recorder is not working properly for some reason)

 

The load was in one of the pictures as well  (180pax/15,000lbs cargo/27,000lbs fuel)

 

Route KDEN to KLGA / Denver to LaGuardia  A320 IAE UAL303

YOKES7 CHICI HAAND ONL Q122 FOD BAE CRL CXR ETG MIP4

Dep rwy 34L*  Cost index initially 85 / Switched to 25 CI midway through the climb. 

 

Please start from bottom picture, work your way up

 

Even though you didn't provide all the information we need (lacking aircraft and engine type and screen shot of the MCDU Trim Setting), I can see that you aircraft was near maxed out for weight.  Then you further complicated matters by changing your Cost Index from 85 (I don't know why you flew with it that high in the first place, but that isn't really an issue) but then you changed your CI from 85 to 25 right at the point where speed and climb rate becomes more critical due to the air thinning out and wing efficiency.

 

In your case I think it's very clear that you problems started with your loadout and you further complicated matters by changing your CI during the climb.

 

Wrapping this up, it's just user error my friend.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, DaveCT2003 said:

 

Even though you didn't provide all the information we need (lacking aircraft and engine type and screen shot of the MCDU Trim Setting), I can see that you aircraft was near maxed out for weight.  Then you further complicated matters by changing your Cost Index from 85 (I don't know why you flew with it that high in the first place, but that isn't really an issue) but then you changed your CI from 85 to 25 right at the point where speed and climb rate becomes more critical due to the air thinning out and wing efficiency.

 

In your case I think it's very clear that you problems started with your loadout and you further complicated matters by changing your CI during the climb.

 

Wrapping this up, it's just user error my friend.

 

 

 

In regards to the trim, I do not have that on here. are you asking about the TO Perf trim? or climb trim. T/O I always do Flaps 2/0.8UP or 1.0UP....The aircraft type and engine is in the subject line... and in the initial post, 4th line down...

 

Do actual airlines not fly practically full, Im sure not all the time but Im pretty sure they do not climb at 300-500 fpm after FL250ish.

 

 27,000lbs of fuel, 15,000lbs of cargo, with 180 seems like a pretty reasonable amount of load. 

 

Changing the CI during flight was to demostrate any changes between the two different settings.  Before I get policed on this topic about "Should've loaded a new flight from start up to cruise" with a fixed CI setting. I agree. 

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51 minutes ago, flyingman32 said:

 

In regards to the trim, I do not have that on here. are you asking about the TO Perf trim? or climb trim. T/O I always do Flaps 2/0.8UP or 1.0UP....The aircraft type and engine is in the subject line... and in the initial post, 4th line down...

 

Do actual airlines not fly practically full, Im sure not all the time but Im pretty sure they do not climb at 300-500 fpm after FL250ish.

 

 27,000lbs of fuel, 15,000lbs of cargo, with 180 seems like a pretty reasonable amount of load. 

 

Changing the CI during flight was to demostrate any changes between the two different settings.  Before I get policed on this topic about "Should've loaded a new flight from start up to cruise" with a fixed CI setting. I agree. 

 

While I've never flown an airliner, I flew large military aircraft and I can tell you for certain that we rarely loaded to max capacity (and for my aircraft, which was a P-3C, we often flew 18 hour flights) without checking a LOT of different things and IF we did so we always expected a retarded climb performance.  Some airliners use a step climb for exactly this reason though with your loadout that would not have helped unless your first stop was at 23,000ft and then you'd have burned too much fuel, so it would have been a loose/loose scenario.  What I'm talking about applies to every aircraft from a small one seat experimental aircraft to any aircraft I'm aware of up to and included space vehicles.

 

I realize you are not aware of this, so I'd like to help you to understand something better.  Our staff works with a LOT of people on a LOT of different issues (roughly 70% is simply education), so we're not handling just one matter at a time, we actually jump all around many unrelated items.  With things as they are, our staff's time is at even more than a premium (things you are aware of and not aware of), and this is why we always ask (as I did in my post above) that people provide ALL of the information we've requested in a single post.  I can promise you that I will never go through multiple posts to see if someone has provided information I need to help them, instead I make it clear I need all the info in one single post.  It's not personal, we just need people to help us help them.

 

In your case, I'm betting a real world dispatcher would never load 15,000lbs of cargo for such a flight as you made, not unless you weren't carrying passengers that is.  3000 to 6000 would have been more like it.  In fact, with the average baggage for 180 passengers I'm fairly certain you could not fit in 15,000lbs of average cargo... main if it was something like steal, lead, gold or something similar, but probably not routine cargo.

 

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Understood.  Just with 180 people though, at 6000lbs of cargo, that 33lbs on average per passenger.  I know it all depends but Im just surprised the aircraft acts like that (even if the rw is the same way) with such low performance at that altitude.  Thanks 

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OK, Dave.  I think I've got all the info you need.  I took off from 06R from KCLE.  It's in the PDF, but redundancy is a good thing, right?

 

I want to re-emphasize that this slow climb characteristic NEVER happens with CFM engines.  It ALWAYS happens with IAE's, without exception.

 

The Simbrief PDF is all the way at the bottom.

 

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KCLEKPHL_PDF_1584582809.pdf

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  • Deputy Sheriffs

Hello guys,

I will do some tests comparing the climb performance between A320 CFM and A320 IAE engines on same route, weights and weather. We'll see if I can recreate any issue there and go from there to determine if there is anything we can do about it right now.

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Thanks, even though, as I said earlier, I just thought the difference between the CFM and IAE aircraft was different flight or performance dynamics.  It really isn't a problem.  I just fly the different aircraft a bit differently.

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  • Deputy Sheriffs

There are definitely different flight and performance dynamics between the IAE and CFM engines that we have also tried to model. But I'll try to find time to have a look into the performance data from both engines in our aircraft and see. But cannot promise any timeline right now since we are working on so many things currently at the same time.

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