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atav757

A321 Speedbrake Logic

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Was speaking to a friend who's a pilot at JBU; the A319, and A321's speed brake deflection with the autopilot on is full deflection unlike the A320, which is limited to half. Just tried to test this on the AS Airbuses and the A321 isn't realistic as far as that goes, I can only get the speedbrakes to deflect partially just like the A320

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Most certainly this is a company option. If JBU ordered Airbusses at different times, etc. then it is not surprising that different models behave differently.

Those of the airlines we looked at worked like it's modelled in our version of the Airbus.

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11 minutes ago, Emanuel Hagen said:

Most certainly this is a company option. If JBU ordered Airbusses at different times, etc. then it is not surprising that different models behave differently.

Those of the airlines we looked at worked like it's modelled in our version of the Airbus.

 

Interesting, I thought this was a thing on all A321s based on the chatter on some other forums because of the FBW version that rolled out on the first A321s. So you're positive this isn't the case?  I see no evidence that the 4 airlines I know have this in their training manuals would chose that as an option. As far as I know speedbrake deflection isn't on the list of customer options on any Airbus.

If anyone has any evidence otherwise I'll be convinced and will have learnt something gladly!

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1 hour ago, atav757 said:

 

Interesting, I thought this was a thing on all A321s based on the chatter on some other forums because of the FBW version that rolled out on the first A321s. So you're positive this isn't the case?  I see no evidence that the 4 airlines I know have this in their training manuals would chose that as an option. As far as I know speedbrake deflection isn't on the list of customer options on any Airbus.

If anyone has any evidence otherwise I'll be convinced and will have learnt something gladly!

 

Emi (Emanuel) is a pilot with a major airline. I knew him for many years before he became a commercial pilot and I can say without reservation that Emi is one of the most knowledgeable flight simmers I've ever known - a real "all that with a bag of chips" type of a guy.   Being completely candid, there aren't too many people I listen to in flight simulation world, but Emi is one of them.

 

Essentially,  you get 50% reduced Speed Brake deflection when the Autopilot is on. Turn off the Autopilot for full speed brake deflection.

 

Reference:  FCOM DSC-27-10-20

 

 

Best wishes.

 

 

 

 

 

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That is the speedbrake logic/max deflection.

It‘s always the same for MSN2xxx to MSN8xxx. No airline option (except SteepAppr).

And yes there we still have some bugs:

- Auto retraction logic (incl missing ECAM)

- AP on/off logic for A320

CB391083-C243-4959-B3FE-2F70EEEFA61A.jpeg

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2 hours ago, DaveCT2003 said:

 

Emi (Emanuel) is a pilot with a major airline. I knew him for many years before he became a commercial pilot and I can say without reservation that Emi is one of the most knowledgeable flight simmers I've ever known - a real "all that with a bag of chips" type of a guy.   Being completely candid, there aren't too many people I listen to in flight simulation world, but Emi is one of them.

 

Essentially,  you get 50% reduced Speed Brake deflection when the Autopilot is on. Turn off the Autopilot for full speed brake deflection.

 

Reference:  FCOM DSC-27-10-20

 

lol Dave, thanks for the kind words. Just because I fly professionally that doens't mean I can't be mistaken though. Especially on a type I do not fly ;)

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So to be clear, I was right? I respect my fellow pilots (virtual or not) on here and their knowledge, which is why I respectfully challenged someone to come up with a definitive answer! It appears as though my original statement was correct according to the posted chart.
Believe me, (also based on my post history) I don't post things on here unless I'm very certain (using real world knowledge / experience) that something is wrong / could be fixed. 

Just to be clear for the 321 I meant full deflection as in max you can get in the air, obviously not the same as including ground spoilers.

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Yes you were correct @atav757

Just shaking my head at the way Aerosoft replies to customer feedback.

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9 minutes ago, pegasus said:

Just shaking my head at the way Aerosoft replies to customer feedback.

 

Now this you gotta explain.

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On 2/8/2020 at 10:37 PM, atav757 said:

So to be clear, I was right? I respect my fellow pilots (virtual or not) on here and their knowledge, which is why I respectfully challenged someone to come up with a definitive answer! It appears as though my original statement was correct according to the posted chart.
Believe me, (also based on my post history) I don't post things on here unless I'm very certain (using real world knowledge / experience) that something is wrong / could be fixed. 

Just to be clear for the 321 I meant full deflection as in max you can get in the air, obviously not the same as including ground spoilers.

Are we talking about speedbrake or groundspoiler?

Attached chart is made from FCOM data. So what does not work correct?

A320 AP on/off

and autoretraction 

is known.

I would not say the A320 is limited. Compared to the others the A320 has an extended SPD BRK with AP off, if you take 25 degree as reference.

And for all A32S max SPD BRK is less than groundspoiler.

8CEC5F6E-8C36-4942-9AE9-3EFB4A83057B.jpeg

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23 hours ago, pegasus said:

Yes you were correct @atav757

Just shaking my head at the way Aerosoft replies to customer feedback.


Usually I'm impressed by the way feedback is handled, if I give professionalism of course I'd want it in return.
 

32 minutes ago, masterhawk said:

Are we talking about speedbrake or groundspoiler?

Attached chart is made from FCOM data. So what does not work correct?

A320 AP on/off

and autoretraction 

is known.

I would not say the A320 is limited. Compared to the others the A320 has an extended SPD BRK with AP off, if you take 25 degree as reference.

And for all A32S max SPD BRK is less than groundspoiler.

8CEC5F6E-8C36-4942-9AE9-3EFB4A83057B.jpeg


This is exactly my point, the way it's modelled is wrong because it doesn't follow the chart you've just posted.

See attachments:

Pic 1 is the A321 with speedbrakes selected full. In the real airplane, regardless of autopilot engagement,  the panels should all be at the same angle, they're not.
image.thumb.png.496e0e7b637a34a18f8220f323aa7229.png

 

 

Pic 2 is the A320 with autopilot engaged, this appears correct.

image.thumb.png.90bcc8ca0fd8f053f56775447477a2bf.png

 

Pic 3 is the A320 with autopilot disengaged, this is incorrect because the spoilers are still limited.
image.thumb.png.474f06d346d496ab456b4d11beb7990f.png
 

 

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36 minutes ago, atav757 said:


Usually I'm impressed by the way feedback is handled, if I give professionalism of course I'd want it in return.
 


This is exactly my point, the way it's modelled is wrong because it doesn't follow the chart you've just posted.

See attachments:

Pic 1 is the A321 with speedbrakes selected full. In the real airplane, regardless of autopilot engagement,  the panels should all be at the same angle, they're not.
image.thumb.png.496e0e7b637a34a18f8220f323aa7229.png

 

 

Pic 2 is the A320 with autopilot engaged, this appears correct.

image.thumb.png.90bcc8ca0fd8f053f56775447477a2bf.png

 

Pic 3 is the A320 with autopilot disengaged, this is incorrect because the spoilers are still limited.
image.thumb.png.474f06d346d496ab456b4d11beb7990f.png
 

 

Thanks, I will look into spoiler 2 of the A321 and add it to bugtracking.

As said, A320 is a known issue.

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On 13.2.2020 at 18:00, Emanuel Hagen sagte:

 

Now this you gotta explain.

 

Sure. I don't know how often I see these replies from Aerosoft when a customer voices a problem with an addon. First reaction is "we have 10 real world pilots and they say our aircraft is behaving correctly". So you my dear customer are wrong because you are not a real world pilot. I have seen this reply with regards to the AS CRJ and not too long ago about theAS  A330 roll rate issue. 

 

Back to the topic. The A320 flight spoiler with Autopilot ON deflect only 12.5° for spoiler pair 2 and 25° for spoiler pairs 3 and 4. With Autopilot off the max. spoiler deflection is 20° for spoiler pair 2 and 40° for spoiler pairs 3 and 4.

The FCOM states "The maximum speedbrake deflection achievable with the autpilot engaged is obtained by setting the speedbrake lever to the half way position. On setting the position of the speedbrake lever from half to full, no increase in speedbrake deflection will be achieved."

 

The A321 and A319 do not have a different maximum deflection with autopilot on or off. The only thing is different is the maximum deflection itself which is 25° on spoilers 2,3 and 4 in the A321 and 25° for spoilers 3 and 4 (while spoiler 2 is either 12.5° or 17.5° depending on flaps config) in the A319.

 

And no, this is not a customer option.

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33 minutes ago, pegasus said:

 

Sure. I don't know how often I see these replies from Aerosoft when a customer voices a problem with an addon. First reaction is "we have 10 real world pilots and they say our aircraft is behaving correctly". So you my dear customer are wrong because you are not a real world pilot. I have seen this reply with regards to the AS CRJ and not too long ago about theAS  A330 roll rate issue.

 

And it is a matter of fact that real world pilots usually know better than hobbyists.

This is especially true when it comes to technical details. Simmer xyz might have seen something else in another addon. Fine, they probably used other manuals or either product might have a bug.

Let's see it from this side: Somebody like you, a username we have never seen, just 15 posts in our forums, not even a name included, posts something technical which he claims is right.
Do we have any source to validate your statements? No.

So we ask our pilots what they think. If none is available at that time we look into the books we have.

If neither confirms your statement we simply have to turn it down unless you can provide a proof yourself.
That's the way it works.

Do you know we recieved a hundret bug reports that the course selector would be missing on the FCU from people with the same outside appeoarance in your forums as you have?

Do you know how many 12 year old 747 captains we deal with who are absolutely right and never did any mistakes?

 

Of course a type rated pilot may also be mistaken. I can be mistaken. In fact I was mistaken on this one.

Yet my answer represented the statement of the pilot I talked to before posting it. So what, proof that I'm wrong and we're looking into it again.

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On 8.2.2020 at 00:11, Emanuel Hagen sagte:

Most certainly this is a company option. If JBU ordered Airbusses at different times, etc. then it is not surprising that different models behave differently.

Those of the airlines we looked at worked like it's modelled in our version of the Airbus.

 

On 8.2.2020 at 07:16, DaveCT2003 sagte:

 

Emi (Emanuel) is a pilot with a major airline. I knew him for many years before he became a commercial pilot and I can say without reservation that Emi is one of the most knowledgeable flight simmers I've ever known - a real "all that with a bag of chips" type of a guy.   Being completely candid, there aren't too many people I listen to in flight simulation world, but Emi is one of them.

 

Essentially,  you get 50% reduced Speed Brake deflection when the Autopilot is on. Turn off the Autopilot for full speed brake deflection.

 

Reference:  FCOM DSC-27-10-20

 

 

Best wishes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is what I am talking about. First you come and say "it is most certainly a company option" etc.
Then the Deputy comes and says "you gotta take Emi's comment for real because he is a pilot with a major airline".

And then he quotes the FCOM (in a wrong part btw.).


So what chance does a customer have against such comments? 

That is what I am criticising. 

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2 hours ago, pegasus said:

So what chance does a customer have against such comments? 

That is what I am criticising. 

 

Well, I do not second any comments like "he's a pilot, he must be right". Nor would I make them myself.

Bob wouldn't make those either.

Deputy is just a badge the username of the users posting is shown above that, above the profile pic. Bob (Masterhawk) is not the same person as Dave (DaveCT2003).

 

What a customer can do is easy: Provide proof of his point of view. Like an FCOM section as posted by Bob, etc.

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