FMS altitudes

[ChrP 0]

Hello,

 

as I was not able to load my flightplan file directly as primary flight plan, like described in my thread "Loading routes", I now loaded the file as secondary flight plan and than pressed LSK5R on the "SEC FPLN" page in the FMS to make it the primary flight plan. Than, I entered the SID and performed the PERF INIT with cruise altitude 30000 ft. After pressing "EXEC", the LEGS page showed all waypoints in the non-complete flight plan with reasoanble altitudes. Non-complete because the STAR was still missing. So, I added the STAR and pressed EXEC again, but unfortunately, that set all altitudes of the waypoints already in the plan before adding the STAR to 3000, except the last one, which was still at 30000. What is happening there? Is this maybe because of the way how I load the flight plan?

 

Regards

  Christoph

[DaveCT2003 2553]

22 minutes ago, ChrP said:

Hello,

 

as I was not able to load my flightplan file directly as primary flight plan, like described in my thread "Loading routes", I now loaded the file as secondary flight plan and than pressed LSK5R on the "SEC FPLN" page in the FMS to make it the primary flight plan. Than, I entered the SID and performed the PERF INIT with cruise altitude 30000 ft. After pressing "EXEC", the LEGS page showed all waypoints in the non-complete flight plan with reasoanble altitudes. Non-complete because the STAR was still missing. So, I added the STAR and pressed EXEC again, but unfortunately, that set all altitudes of the waypoints already in the plan before adding the STAR to 3000, except the last one, which was still at 30000. What is happening there? Is this maybe because of the way how I load the flight plan?

 

Regards

  Christoph

 

POST EDITED:   My apologies, I had the wrong aircraft and thought you were talking about the Airbus.  Please disregard my earlier posting, now removed.

 

 

 

 

 

[ChrP 0]

I have attached the flightplan files I saved from within the Simulator before adding SID and STAR and after adding the SID. Unfortunately, though I could save another flightplan file after adding the STAR, that file for some reason does not differ from the file I saved before, which means that it does contain the STAR data. That is why I attached only two files.

 

I am using Navigraph AIRAC 1911.

 

Before adding the SID, the FMS LEGS page showed the following altitudes:

 

GMN FL300

DERBB FL300

PRB FL300

 

After adding the SID (VTU with transition TZS), the FMS LEGS page showed the following altitudes:

 

SMO251 3000B

VTU FL206

RZS FL300

GMN FL300

DERBB FL300

PRB FL300

 

After adding the STAR (ILS10R, Transition SNS), the LEGS page showed the following altitudes:

 

SMO251 3000B

VTU 3000

RZS 3000

GMN 3000

DERBB 3000

PRB FL300

SNS 9929

ZEBED 3600A

MINCK 1700

RW10R 205

 

Obviously, this setting of altitudes from VTU to DERBB makes no sense.  

 

 

 

 

 

KLAXKMRY-without-SID-and-STAR.flp KLAXKMRY-with-SID.flp

[JRBarrett 675]

Don’t enter a cruise altitude until after completing the flight plan.
 

The practice I always follow is to first select departure and destination airports. Enter departure runway and SID (if applicable). Enter all enroute waypoints. Enter STAR (if applicable) and anticipated landing runway and approach. Go to LEGS page and clear any discontinuities and EXEC.

 

Then, and only then, go to the PERF INIT page to enter the planned cruise altitude, and EXEC again.  Entering cruise altitude before completing and executing the flight plan can lead problems with calculating the VNAV profile.

[ChrP 0]

Entering the data in the order you described did not change anything.

[JRBarrett 675]

1 hour ago, ChrP said:

Entering the data in the order you described did not change anything.

It appears you are going from LAX to MRY, with the VTU8 SID? I’m wondering why you have included GMN and DERBB in the enroute phase, since that takes the aircraft on a zig zag course almost due east 48 miles from RZS to GMN, before turning back north toward PRB. It would make more sense to go direct from RZS to PRB, and eliminate GMN and DERBB.

 

FWIW, per Flight Aware, current Skywest flights from LAX to MRY are all using the SUMMR2 RNAV SID, SCTRR transition, then direct SNS. The R/W flights are going at FL260, which is either an ATC constraint, or because these flights are now being done with the CRJ-200 instead of 700, but no reason why you could not use FL300 instead if you want.

 

KMRY doesn’t actually have a STAR as such - just the ILS10R approach.

 

In the example you gave in your initial post, it was already showing a cruise flight level of FL300 at GMN before you entered the approach at KMRY, which can only have happened if you entered a cruise flight level on the PERF INIT page before you completed the flight plan. Although you could do that in the real aircraft, it is not advisable in the sim. The complete flight plan should be entered and all discontinuities cleared (then EXEC) before going to the PERF INIT page to enter passenger weights, cargo and fuel weights, and cruise altitude.

 

I’m not at my computer, but was this flight from the tutorial? I seem to recall that was from LAX to MRY, though I’m not sure why they would have included GMN after RZS, since that would not be a logical way to fly to KMRY.

 

If everything was entered correctly, there should be an “VECTOR entry (automatically inserted on the LEGS page) between SNS and ZEBED. ZEBED is the actual start of the ILS10R approach. The current chart shows the altitude constraint at ZEBED is 2600A - your waypoint list shows 3600A, but that might be a glitch in the Navigraph data.

 

Alternately, try the current real world flight plan: KLAX SUMMR2.SCTRR SNS KMRY

[ChrP 0]

vor 17 Stunden , JRBarrett sagte:

It appears you are going from LAX to MRY, with the VTU8 SID? I’m wondering why you have included GMN and DERBB in the enroute phase, since that takes the aircraft on a zig zag course almost due east 48 miles from RZS to GMN, before turning back north toward PRB. It would make more sense to go direct from RZS to PRB, and eliminate GMN and DERBB.

 

The flightplan without departure and arrival procedures was created by an external program before starting the simulator. I used that program because I was working through the tutorial flight, but was too lazy to enter the flightplan manually.

Afterwards, in the CRJ FMS, I entered departure and arrival data as described in the tutorial flight documentation.

 

I have tried a different departure route now, and with that, the altitude problem does not occur. But can a zig zag departure route really cause that altitude problem? 

[JRBarrett 675]

1 hour ago, ChrP said:

 

The flightplan without departure and arrival procedures was created by an external program before starting the simulator. I used that program because I was working through the tutorial flight, but was too lazy to enter the flightplan manually.

Afterwards, in the CRJ FMS, I entered departure and arrival data as described in the tutorial flight documentation.

 

I have tried a different departure route now, and with that, the altitude problem does not occur. But can a zig zag departure route really cause that altitude problem? 

It may be because you imported the flight plan from an external program. I believe there have been various issues in the Aerosoft CRJ when using imported flight plans from some programs. 
 

In my flights, I usually look online for a current r/w flight plan being used between my departure and destination. Since I normally use real weather, I’ll enter the plan in PFPX to calculate flight times and fuel burn, but when it comes to loading the plan in the aircraft, I always do it manually in the FMS.

[Victory103 24]

The FMS initialize example is pretty much the standard I use along with a similar Collins version in the King Air taught by the acronym VIPP: Verify database, Initialize, Plan, Perf. Also, those are CRJ200s going to MRY and FL260 is the dispatch release assigned cruise altitude, but anything higher is pointless in a "climb limited" jet like the -200.

[Marcus67 0]

Hello,

 

I confirm with the tutorial  KLAX-KMRY:

 

RWY25R

SID VTU9

TRANS RZS

J88 -  VTU

DIRECT - SHOEY

ILS10R (ZEBED - MINCK RWY10R) witout STAR and Trans (as indicates in the tutoriel

 

There is no calculation of VNAV altitudes....

The Waypoints are calculated at 3000 and not TOD proposed by the FMC.... for P3D V3 and P3D V4

 

On the other hand, no problem for all other flight plans.

 

Best Regards,

Marc.

 

[JRBarrett 675]

10 hours ago, Marcus67 said:

Hello,

 

I confirm with the tutorial  KLAX-KMRY:

 

RWY25R

SID VTU9

TRANS RZS

J88 -  VTU

DIRECT - SHOEY

ILS10R (ZEBED - MINCK RWY10R) witout STAR and Trans (as indicates in the tutoriel

 

There is no calculation of VNAV altitudes....

The Waypoints are calculated at 3000 and not TOD proposed by the FMC.... for P3D V3 and P3D V4

 

On the other hand, no problem for all other flight plans.

 

Best Regards,

Marc.

 

There is a problem with the flight plan as you have listed it. After RZS, it should be J88 SNS (Salinas), then SHOEY ZEBED MINCK

[Marcus67 0]

Hello,

 

My bad =>  Yes, J88 SNS is entered in the FMC.

The flightplan is entered before pressing EXEC.

as already mentioned, no problem for other flight plans.

 

Best regards,

Marc.

 

 

 

Please login to display this image.

[JRBarrett 675]

I think there may be a problem in how the AIRAC is encoded for this particular SID. It should show VECTOR prior to VTU. The altitude constraint of 3000 or below (when crossing the SMO 154 radial) appears to be encoded as a waypoint. On Monday, I will try loading this departure in an actual CRJ FMS and see how it is displayed. Are you using Navigraph or NavDataPro?

 

Edit: I see the OP, who had a similar problem, is using Navigraph. I definitely think that the “SMO251” pseudo waypoint encoded in the departure procedure is the source of the error with subsequent altitudes.

[Marcus67 0]

I deleted between SMO and VTU  to comply with the tutorial but that does not change the problem.

 

To my knowledge AS CRJ700-900 does not give the possibility between NavData Pro and Navigraph.

I use Navigraph cycle 1902.

 

Procedure file of KLAX AIRAC 1912:

SID,VTU8,24R,1
VR,0,SMO,154.0,251.0,3,3000,0,0,0,0,0,0, 
VM,0,0,0,251.0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 
DF,VTU,34.115058,-119.049492,0, ,0.0,0.0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,

 

Procedure file KLAX AIRAC 1913

SID,VTU8,24R,1
VR,0,SMO,154.0,251.0,3,3000,0,0,0,0,0,0, 
VM,0,0,0,251.0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 
DF,VTU,34.115064,-119.049500,0, ,0.0,0.0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 

 

Same configuration as with AIRAC 1912 and same problem.

 

 

To work around the problem, I enter FL300 on the RZS waypoint and the altitudes are calculated correctly

 

Please login to display this image.

Kind regards,

 

Marc.

 

 

[JRBarrett 675]

1 hour ago, Marcus67 said:

I deleted between SMO and VTU  to comply with the tutorial but that does not change the problem.

 

To my knowledge AS CRJ700-900 does not give the possibility between NavData Pro and Navigraph.

I use Navigraph cycle 1902.

 

Procedure file of KLAX AIRAC 1912:

SID,VTU8,24R,1
VR,0,SMO,154.0,251.0,3,3000,0,0,0,0,0,0, 
VM,0,0,0,251.0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 
DF,VTU,34.115058,-119.049492,0, ,0.0,0.0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,

 

 

You can use either Navigraph or NavDataPro. The installers for either service will place their AIRAC files in proper folder to be used by the Aerosoft CRJ. I’m not familiar with the encoding of SIDS in CRJ NAV data, so can’t say if there is a problem or not in the example above. The SMO 154 radial simply marks an altitude constraint (3000 feet or below) where it crosses the departure course of 251 degrees. The actual SID chart instructs the pilot to maintain 251 degrees and expect a vector.

 

This routing from the tutorial is actually not all that realistic. Currently (December 2019), the flights from KLAX to KMRY are operated by Skywest using. CRJ-200s primarily, and all of them use the SUMMR2 RNAV SID, SCTRR transition, then direct SNS. Perhaps an update of the tutorial is called for...

[Marcus67 0]

what the tutorial indicates does not really pose a navigation problem as you indicate it.

certainly an update of this tutorial is required. I took note of your information of KLAX departure and thank you for your research.

 

Kind regards,

Marc.