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Eduard Gasull

VERY HARD LANDINGS WITH AUTOLAND

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Hi im experiencing very hard landings with autoland function Btw 400-700 FT/MIN. the aircraft is perfectly set and the wheather conditions are optimum for autoland but at 20" call i put engines iddle but the flare is not reproduced in anyway. this happened to me all the times i autoland.

 

any solution?

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Eduard Gasull said:

Hi im experiencing very hard landings with autoland function Btw 400-700 FT/MIN. the aircraft is perfectly set and the wheather conditions are optimum for autoland but at 20" call i put engines iddle but the flare is not reproduced in anyway. this happened to me all the times i autoland.

 

any solution?

 

 

 

 

 

Which aircraft?  A318? A319? A320? A321?  CFM or IAE?  Also, and more importantly what was your loadout?  Let me know and I'll try to see if I can duplicate, however I will be out of town on Thursday so I won't be able to fly this until Friday (I'm GMT -6).


What I can say is that I've never had such a landing with Autoland, but I'm happy to look at this.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Eduard Gasull said:

autoland but at 20" call i put engines iddle

 

During an autoland, "RETARD " auto callout should be at 10' RA 

 

BY FCOM

 

AT 10 FT RA

BOTH THRUST LEVERS...........................................................................................................IDLE Retard thrust levers at the "RETARD" autocallout.

-------------------------------------------------

Maybe not related with your issue  but noted.- <-----------------------

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6 hours ago, Polo said:

 

During an autoland, "RETARD " auto callout should be at 10' RA 

 

BY FCOM

 

AT 10 FT RA

BOTH THRUST LEVERS...........................................................................................................IDLE Retard thrust levers at the "RETARD" autocallout.

-------------------------------------------------

Maybe not related with your issue  but noted.- <-----------------------

Hi thanks for the answer.

i know that info, i just follow the advise of a 320 pilot, to no wait to retard to start the iddle. but anyway no matter i do i have this rates!

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6 hours ago, DaveCT2003 said:

 

Which aircraft?  A318? A319? A320? A321?  CFM or IAE?  Also, and more importantly what was your loadout?  Let me know and I'll try to see if I can duplicate, however I will be out of town on Thursday so I won't be able to fly this until Friday (I'm GMT -6).
What I can say is that I've never had such a landing with Autoland, but I'm happy to look at this.

 

 

 

Hi dave thanks for the support.

it was A320 CFM Sharklets. 

The ZFW was 54.3 (145 pax, 880 cargo) the GW  was 60.6 , FUEL amount 6.8.

Landing weight aprox 58.4 aprox.  as i consumed 2.1 kg of fuel froms LEAS to LEMD

the GNH was 1015 and the wind VRB 3KTS ILSZ32R. 

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7 hours ago, DaveCT2003 said:

Thursday so I won't be able to fly this until Friday (I'm GMT -6).


What I can say is that I've never had such a landing with Autoland, but I'm happy to look at this.

 

 

 

dont worry about that. just one question,  what do you do exactly fo the autoland? coud you try in madrid? with 50´ DAH set

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5 hours ago, Eduard Gasull said:

i just follow the advise of a 320 pilot, to no wait to retard to start the iddle

 

It's not only an advise, it's part of SOP 's 

- In stabilized approach conditions, the flare height is approximately 30 ft: FLARE........................................................................................................................PERFORM Avoid flaring high. Refer to Ground Clearance Diagram.

ATTITUDE...................................................................................................................MONITOR

THRUST levers....................................................................................................................IDLE If autothrust is engaged, it automatically disconnects when the pilot sets both thrust levers to the IDLE detent.

In manual landing conditions, the "RETARD" callout is triggered at 20 ft radio height, in order to remind the pilot to retard the thrust levers.

 

My earlier comment was that the call out RETARD in autoland should be at 10'instead of 20' as in an Landing manual.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Polo said:

 

It's not only an advise, it's part of SOP 's 

- In stabilized approach conditions, the flare height is approximately 30 ft: FLARE........................................................................................................................PERFORM Avoid flaring high. Refer to Ground Clearance Diagram.

ATTITUDE...................................................................................................................MONITOR

THRUST levers....................................................................................................................IDLE If autothrust is engaged, it automatically disconnects when the pilot sets both thrust levers to the IDLE detent.

In manual landing conditions, the "RETARD" callout is triggered at 20 ft radio height, in order to remind the pilot to retard the thrust levers.

 

My earlier comment was that the call out RETARD in autoland should be at 10'instead of 20' as in an Landing manual.

 

 

thanks for the explanation

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On 7/18/2019 at 4:34 AM, DaveCT2003 said:

 

Which aircraft?  A318? A319? A320? A321?  CFM or IAE?  Also, and more importantly what was your loadout?  Let me know and I'll try to see if I can duplicate, however I will be out of town on Thursday so I won't be able to fly this until Friday (I'm GMT -6).


What I can say is that I've never had such a landing with Autoland, but I'm happy to look at this.

 

 

 

hi  Dave,

 

would you able  finally  to reproduce that? 

 

Best Regrads

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I tried the ILS W approach to LEMD 32R with autoland and the landing was pretty normal. A320 CFM as well and landing weight around the same at 58.4 tons. Landing rate was around -200 (cannot remember the exact value) and right on the touchdown zone. So I am not really sure why it's doing a hard landing on your side. Perhaps a video could help us to see how different modes arm and perform and see better what is going on. Especially if FLARE becomes active on FMA since you say the aircraft does not seem to flare at all.

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2 hours ago, Eduard Gasull said:

hi  Dave,

 

would you able  finally  to reproduce that? 

 

Best Regrads

 

I landed Case III at KPHL, KBOS and KLAS, all normal landings my friend.

 

My ZFW was 59.9 for all three flights and I had various amounts of fuel remaining but not more than 6 Tons.

 

Weather can also play a factor.

 

 

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On 7/19/2019 at 11:35 PM, DaveCT2003 said:

 

I landed Case III at KPHL, KBOS and KLAS, all normal landings my friend.

 

My ZFW was 59.9 for all three flights and I had various amounts of fuel remaining but not more than 6 Tons.

 

Weather can also play a factor.

 

 

well i dont understand hy im doing worng im going to recrod a video maybe is my error flying the aircraft. But i never had problems with earlier versions.

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I reported this issue before, and I was told that it was "normal". But my observation was that the aircraft does little to no flare. I will do another one and record it and post it here.

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3 hours ago, Romano Lara said:

I reported this issue before, and I was told that it was "normal". But my observation was that the aircraft does little to no flare. I will do another one and record it and post it here.

 

That is correct. Since I can't post information directly from the FCTM here, you can Google "Airbus Flare" and you'll find some posts that explain this. One such post / explanation is found in the second post at the following link

 

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/:

 

 

Best wishes.

 

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3 hours ago, Romano Lara said:

I reported this issue before, and I was told that it was "normal". But my observation was that the aircraft does little to no flare. I will do another one and record it and post it here.

 

Of course it depends on what rate is refered to. A rate of -400 can be normal depending on conditions while -700 as Eduard listed is too much. Well, it can happen, but it's rare.

 

On the retard, keep in mind guys, it is a reminder, not a rule which is set in stone.
Depending on conditions it might make sense to retard the thrust levers earlier or later.

In real life on the jet I fly I personally find it can help a lot to smooth the landing out if you keep the thrust on a bit longer, if you're really low on energy all the way to touchdown (reduced of course, not the full ~60% the CFM56 normally gives you on approach.

It's all a very dynamic situation and having the right feeling for the aircraft is crucial here.

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Hi,

I had been into the same subject also and had made lots of tests together with a Gentleman from AS team. That is the reason why it might be useful to say some words about it.

What I would like to mention first is that monitoring the landing rate comes mainly due to the targets set by the VA (Virtual airlines). The easiest way to monitor the performance and accumulate points for the ranking system is monitoring the landing rates. This is the place to say that I am not very happy of accepting such parameter as the only criteria for the pilot's performance, but it is the easiest, as I said before. Moreover the SmartCars, which most of the VA are using is giving it in their logs. Here are some examples: landing rates of -136 to -164 are considered as perfect landing and rates of -110 to -135 are qualified as good landing as per the rules of one particular VA. Everything above -500 leads to not accepting the flight!? Hope all of you agree  that we are referring to units measured in fpm.

Being honest, we have to admit that the professional series of the Airbus is landing relatively hard if left on fully autopilot control. The rates recorded in many European airports are about -350 and above. All this depends on many factors like weather conditions, load of the AC, speed, etc, etc. Many of them were mentioned in the previous posts and there is no need to repeat them. There is one more important thing, which has to be mentioned also - not all airports are allowing full automatic landing, no matter that data for such can be found on the charts.

What we had done was collecting and mainly measuring the vertical speed of the aircraft during landing. An A320, CFM aircraft with the original livery G-EZTB was used. There is a way to monitor the parameters on the screen using Peter Dowson's FSUIPC 5. All this was to validate how the AC performs in landing and what can be corrected in order to achieve desired performance. Let's open a bracket here and say that desired does not mean perfect!

What I would like to say after all the test performed are following:

- Landing rates depend too much of flying technique of the pilot (I am sure it is same in RL);

- It is advisable to increase the Vapp parameter on the performance page of the MCDU with 3 - 6 knots. This gives a bit more energy to the AC and prevents from "unpleasant" surprises, which may come from the weather and wind especially. There is lot of theory and practice how and what are Vapp and Vls, but we better leave it aside;

- I personally found that it is useful to switch off the auto-thrust when the AC is at about 100 ft, BUT again it depends on many things;

- The AC very well flares, but it should be prepared for it properly;

That is for now and wishing you all happy landings! :)

 

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On 7/23/2019 at 9:22 PM, Emanuel Hagen said:

 

Of course it depends on what rate is refered to. A rate of -400 can be normal depending on conditions while -700 as Eduard listed is too much. Well, it can happen, but it's rare.

 

On the retard, keep in mind guys, it is a reminder, not a rule which is set in stone.
Depending on conditions it might make sense to retard the thrust levers earlier or later.

In real life on the jet I fly I personally find it can help a lot to smooth the landing out if you keep the thrust on a bit longer, if you're really low on energy all the way to touchdown (reduced of course, not the full ~60% the CFM56 normally gives you on approach.

It's all a very dynamic situation and having the right feeling for the aircraft is crucial here.

 

On almost all the landings in this a/c I also keep the power all the way till the mains touch the ground or just before. Just like in my drag filled LSA in our local club. :D

I've not tried a full autoland again, but I will give another feedback once I get another chance...but I can certainly remember the last time was so hard that it triggered a hard landing printout, _with power all the way down at that.

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