Mathijs Kok

So how good a pilot are you?

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Real flight crew not welcome here.... move along.

 

Perhaps I shown this before (don't think so), but let's give simmers an idea of the complexity and level of training a professional flight crew has.

Consider this situation. The red text is the condition, the green text is a ATC communication. It's something that actually happened. It's 100% real. 

 

image.png

 

The real crew replied within 10 seconds. As you are dropped in let's give you a three minutes (that's 18 times as long). Your time starts now.

 

Are you going to say yes or no?  I'll give you one tip, the sharklets matter. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Unable, because sharklets reduce the induced drag and thus make the descent capabilities a lot worse than on non-sharklet busses. Ask for an extended downwind. Unless you want to drop the anchor (gear), go full spoiler + AP off (stuka mode) and try your luck of course... just like the russians do it.

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I would reply: negative

 

24nm to go and you have to descend 12000 ft. Sharklets increase lift. No matter if during takeoff, cruise or landing. Speed would be around 250 knots at this altitude I would say. Would mean little more than 2 minutes for 24 nm. 12000ft in 2 minutes would mean a descend rate of -6000ft/min. Sounds strange to me. I am sure, there is a mistake from my side. That´s not manageable. Even not with a wingtip-A320. But I would not fly the direct and ask for proceeding on the STAR or vectors with a longer way to go. Even without calculating I would have said no.

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I would say no. Simply using the 3 times rule will tell you that you won't make it: 24/3=8. So you can drop 8 levels in 24 miles, being at FL150 that would mean you end up at FL070; Still 4000 feet too high. You would need about 12 miles extra to descend (not including the slowing down that needs to happen too!) It being an A320 with sharklets means that it is even more slippery and the headwind (giving you more lift) will not help either. Even if they did put the gear down, put flaps 2 out, put the speedbrakes out and disengaged the AP to get the full effect of the speedbrakes (as they go out completely when the AP is out) it would still be a problem with losing the speed. But as we were not given the speed the plane is going at we can't know if you can just increase the descent by trading the altitude for speed...

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I think that they can. if they enter the descent at 15000ft and have to be at 3000ft in 24nm assuming they are at a speed of 280 knots  I would say they could make it with a -2500fpm  descent rate, but by looking at the chart the flight crew should have been at 4000ft at VERED or am I wrong, cos if that's the case they are high

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The speed part is completely missing in this question - it's almost impossible to answer without.

It also depends if it's night, so we could get a high speed approval in airspace E.

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51 minutes ago, Supercau03 said:

 looking at the chart the flight crew should have been at 4000ft at VERED or am I wrong, cos if that's the case they are high

 

4000 is the MEA - Minimum Enroute Altitude. It's not a constraint, but the minimum altittude you need to fly on this procedure. You can be higher as you desire.

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37 minutes ago, A346 said:

The speed part is completely missing in this question - it's almost impossible to answer without.

It also depends if it's night, so we could get a high speed approval in airspace E.

 

Not sure about other countries, but Europe also allows to lift this restriction at daylight. Whether you want to accept it (or whether your company even allows your to accept it) is another question.

 

Assume "normal" speed. Might sound strange, but believe me: Line Training Captains will ask you exactly this kind of questions, without telling you a speed either.

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54 minutes ago, Supercau03 said:

I think that they can. if they enter the descent at 15000ft and have to be at 3000ft in 24nm assuming they are at a speed of 280 knots  I would say they could make it with a -2500fpm  descent rate, but by looking at the chart the flight crew should have been at 4000ft at VERED or am I wrong, cos if that's the case they are high

 

Don't forget the wind and TAS effect!

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1 hour ago, brtkstn said:

and what about passengers and pressurisation?

 

They might become a bit uncomfortable, but they'll thank you if they can catch a bus earlier if you can make it. ;)

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gerade, Emanuel Hagen sagte:

 

Not sure about other countries, but Europe also allows to lift this restriction at daylight. Whether you want to accept it (or whether your company even allows your to accept it) is another question.

 

In Germany it was only allowed at night in 2011, but might be changed.

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1 minute ago, A346 said:

 

In Germany it was only allowed at night in 2011, but might be changed.

 

Indeed it must have changed then. 7 years in the world of burocracy could mean they either reinvented the whole wheel or did just nothing.
But indeed a lot changed in the last few years in our legislation.

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I would reply "unable", without doing much mental maths. 

The required FPA is just too steep, and we would also need some trackmiles just to slow down to G/S intercept speed  (S speed / CONF 1 in my mind)

 

Will be interesting to hear the conclusion :)

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Less drag, harder to Decel, more shallow descent profile? (Using 737NG winglet logic here, but airbus sharklets serves same purpose I assume)

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I would say unable.  Not reasonable to commit to something you doubt you will be able to achieve.   Interestingly, this happens quite often on VATSIM.  Controllers clearing and vectoring straight to the ILS, when the aircraft is too high and too close to make the procedure 'standard'

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Because they increase lift and with that decrease drag;)

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21 minutes ago, Airbus A340 Pilot said:

Because they increase lift and with that decrease drag;)

 

Mmmm, that will have a very small effect, hardly noticeable. No there is a MUCH bigger reason, something that plays a major part in the yes/no decision. 

 

 

 

 

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It's probably a limitation of speed brake usage or gear extension/gear down performance for models with sharklets.

But hard to find the exact reason without access to the FCOM/FCTM.

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