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Preview: F-16 just before going into beta1


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On turkey feathers animation; I believe Tim isn't quite done with it yet but as it is in the current alpha release, it's very close to realistic with idle=open, mil=closed and AB zones=fully open. The AB effect is not done yet and I believe it will be much better then the CS F/A-18 one (which seems modelled). I expect something similar to the one Stephen Vernava did for the IRIS F-14.

On HUD symbology; not finished yet I believe. Basic presentation something along the lines of the Coral F-15 and IRIS F-14 would be what I would expect, with the need to have your line of sight more or less lined up with the HUD-frame to see the ladder/symbology, like the real thing.

Xpack F-18 HUD symbology has great clarity, something I would expect with the F-16.

I have my new system properly set up now so maybe one of these days I'll get FRAPS up and running. First of all, back to the paint brushes (before Vin does them all :D ..... not that I mind).

Thanks

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  • Aerosoft
On an entirely different matter: I flew the Acceleration F/A-18 yesterday and when you move your head up or down (I have TrackIR) the HUD-symbology moves with it. That makes, for example, the horizon line and the Flight Path Marker virtually useless. How will this be in the F-16? The Iris F-15C shows it is possible to keep the HUD almost (not entirely) stable despite head movements. From flights in professional fighter simulators I know that the HUD-symbology stays stable relative to the outside world, despite head movements.

Well the HUD is plate of glass that reflects a laser generated image. There is no feedback between the location of the head of the pilot and the generated image. So part from stuff like the gun stuff I do not believe there is any G load related correction as far as I know . If your head moves, the horizon line moves relative to the horizon. I do know in the most modern fighters and in helicopters since the last 10 years things are a bit different. But as far as I know, pulling positive G in the F16 will move your viewpoint downwards (as your head is pressed down) and the horizon line seems to move upwards as a result of that.

Now in 2d mode that does not matter as your viewpoint does not change. But in a fighter like the F16 the 2d mode really makes no sense so we are focusing a lot on the 3d/vc mode where your viewpoint DOES move in relation the aircraft.

The problem is that FSX exaggerates that effect totally. Extend the air brakes and you are staring at your HUD from a 10 inches. Do a 0 G-load, max burner extension and your view point moves to the COG of the aircraft. We need to tweak FSX in that aspect. Always hard to do as it wrecks your Super Cub flight the day after. Fighter pilots have superb seats, seat belts and thick necks. Cub Pilots have weak spines and a bit of linen to sit on.

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Matthijs, as far as I’ve experienced in professional simulators, the position of the horizon line and FPM relative to the ‘real’ horizon stays the same regardless of head movements. So if you move your head up the ‘real’ horizon moves up relative to, for example the instrument panel, but the horizon line in the HUD does the same. Indeed, if you move up too much the horizon line will disappear off the HUD. It should work like this, otherwise the pilot could not adjust the seat up or down without making some adjustments to the HUD. And he/she could not use the HUD as a gunsight without sitting in a precisely defined position, which seems impossible to me in a high-G dogfight. In fact, when I flew the F-16 simulator at the National Aerospace Laboratory, I was told to raise my seat before entering finals because otherwise the horizon could be below the HUD (due to the high angle of attack). When I adjusted the seat the real horizon and the HUD horizon line and FPM moved in perfect harmony. But if you want I’ll check. A student of mine is an F-16 pilot and I’ll see him on Thursday. But perhaps there are fighter pilots watching this forum….

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Quite correct. The F-16 heads-up display works in such a manner that "true" sight is always granted, no matter what your head's position may be. You can compare it to the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6CyHtIUmME, or the

holographic gunsights, which work in a similar fashion, where the markings are always centered on a specific point in the infinite distance. Moving your head up moves the HUD imagine down, moving your head down moves the HUD image up, moving your head to the left moves it to the right, to the right moves it to the left. Moving your head away from the projector makes the image bigger, moving it closer makes the imagine smaller (so it always remains the same size relative to your eyes) This was necesarry, among other reasons, so the "artificial" holographic horizon is always in-line with the real-world horizon and is not prone to error by false setting or pilot height/head position.
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Dag, Fulcrum may have been a bit curt, but I think he has a point. The talk about who is where in the Dutch Air Force gets the character of a private conversation. I too would like to see this thread return to its core. And to make this an attitude issue is a bit of a quick judgment I would say.

If it would be possible to pm eachother i would have mail MAKAVELI straight away...sorry 'bout that......

Annyway i agree with Makaveli at his last point about the HUD!

But then you'll have to know the horizontal line of FS, wich as i think it is,

doesn't excist, so there has to be an artificial line

http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item46436.html

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Well, I tried explaining how the HUD worked in my above post and you guys did it better. In FS9 it was possible to make a separate window to have the VC HUD image on. This window could be placed some distance in front of the aircraft, say a few feet in front of the windshield. The only thing unrealistic about this method was that if you leaned your head against the side of the canopy, you could still see the HUD symbology to the side of the HUD frame! That's not real life. As said, the symbology also stays constant in size, a feature not mastered in FS. I wonder if it's possible in FSX to project the HUD image on a 3d HUD-glass and have this effect e.g. if you lean too much to the side you'll loose the HUD symbology? There's one importand thing about the HUD in FSX and that is it needs to be visible and readable in a variety of monitor resolutions. Right now I have problems reading the HUD in the F-16 alpha, but this is also partly due to poor AA in the NVIDIA drivers.

And.... like Mathijs said, I highly dislike the "forhead in the glareshield" when you apply speed brakes/do a buster climb. I wish they concentrated on making other things correct for FSX istead of this effect. The seats are indeed sturdy and the harness is tight.

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  • Aerosoft

If it would be possible to pm eachother i would have mail MAKAVELI straight away...sorry 'bout that......

Annyway i agree with Makaveli at his last point about the HUD!

But then you'll have to know the horizontal line of FS, wich as i think it is,

doesn't excist, so there has to be an artificial line

http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item46436.html

I still don't get it. If there is no system that senses the location of the pilot eyes how can the horizon line stay on the horizon? I have little time in F16 sims, but I clearly remember being told to put the seat in such a position that my eyes where at the location the HUD 'expected it' to be. Now in a F16 seat you got very limited vertical movement of your head so the problem there is very limited.

In FSX we have no yet found how to model down the head movement btw. So we got the good brake action of the air brakes that Falcon4 misses, but we got way to much head movement as a result. You can never win.

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  • Aerosoft
Well, I tried explaining how the HUD worked in my above post and you guys did it better. In FS9 it was possible to make a separate window to have the VC HUD image on. This window could be placed some distance in front of the aircraft, say a few feet in front of the windshield. The only thing unrealistic about this method was that if you leaned your head against the side of the canopy, you could still see the HUD symbology to the side of the HUD frame! That's not real life.

Yeah we experimented with that. But a real HUD is really rather small (a view from a 2d screen always seems to make it bigger as your view is really rather restricted). Look at the attached screen fron dead ahead. Gives a good idea of the actual size of the HUD, it is only a fraction of the total superb views from an F16 pit. That's why most HUD technology is moving towards the helmet.

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Indeed, Matthijs, the problem is limited due to limited vertical movement (a reason why I do not think that Dag’s principally correct point that with his solution the symbology would float off the HUD would be a great problem in practice) but if you ever are at an air show or such, have a look at a HUD. The symbology really stays stable relative to the horizon, even with bigger head movements (unless you move so much that the symbology floats out of the HUD boundaries). With lateral head movements it’s the same. Here again, if the symbology would not remain stable, how would you be able to use the gunsight except at very short distances?

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I still don't get it. If there is no system that senses the location of the pilot eyes how can the horizon line stay on the horizon?

It's really quite hard to explain, as it's one of the more complex systems on the F-16. It's basically a holographic system that "knows" the angle the plane is at (using gyros) and can thus dictate where the "true" horizon is at, at any given moment. It doesn't need the pilot for that, it doesn't make a difference, it is based on its knowledge of what the plane is doing. It will always show this basic reading, whatever your head position may be, as long as you don't move your head in such an angle that you can no longer see the HUD reading.

An easier way to see it is that the holographic image is fixed in one position - and this is NOT on the HUD screen. The HUD works as a viewport through which you can see the image, as if it were projected somewhere in the distance and the HUD is the only window you can see the image through.

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Maybe these links Help to explain a HUD how it works :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_guidance_system

An INS has nothing to do with a HUD.

The other link indicates that certain models of the F-16 use a non-fixed HUD, obviously initiated by the pilot by positioning it in front of one of his eyes. That being the case, this particular HUD should always display in the exact same position on the monitor in Virtual Cockpit mode in exactly the same way as a panel overlay in 2D mode.

A fixed HUD, one which ought to be modeled in our F-16 and one that we're most familiar, needs to become a dynamic layer positioned in the same coordinates as the reflective glass above the glareshield on the gunsight/HUD itself. But you guys already know that. :-)

BTW, seeing all these images of the plane, when do the beta testers actually get a hold of it. Isn't it about time to get a little more input??

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Indeed, Matthijs, the problem is limited due to limited vertical movement (a reason why I do not think that Dag’s principally correct point that with his solution the symbology would float off the HUD would be a great problem in practice) but if you ever are at an air show or such, have a look at a HUD. The symbology really stays stable relative to the horizon, even with bigger head movements (unless you move so much that the symbology floats out of the HUD boundaries). With lateral head movements it’s the same. Here again, if the symbology would not remain stable, how would you be able to use the gunsight except at very short distances?

Your all right indeed, the excual point as well is...its an reflection, and because of that point the lazer indicates the horizon at one point, when you move your head like 6dof it moves with the vision untill its out of range of the projection glass.

Anyway, wich is important after all, is that the ALtitude bar and Speed bar are somewhere in the middle, on the sides of the projection glass.

The guncross, wich indicates the point of the nose of the aircraft somewhere on the top in that circkel of the lazer HUD projection pod.(OPU)

However its still very hard to do in FS, they did it in falcon Red Viper but thats something way different.

Like Matthijs said if there's gonna be a dynamic head positioning in fornt of the HUD and ICP ( not too close by the way) than it should be possible to put the HUD in place!

scaleworking2fb3.jpg

As you can see the image projected with DED data on the Bottom and small bankscale over the FPM selected.....good example for how its reflected in the circkel of the OPU

ALso important.. The Horizontal line is not aligned with the true HORIZON, this happens only when your on the ground, and it departs from it feet by feet.

IM IN NEED.......IN NEED OF BETA TESTING!!!!!!!

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An INS has nothing to do with a HUD.

The other link indicates that certain models of the F-16 use a non-fixed HUD, obviously initiated by the pilot by positioning it in front of one of his eyes. That being the case, this particular HUD should always display in the exact same position on the monitor in Virtual Cockpit mode in exactly the same way as a panel overlay in 2D mode.

A fixed HUD, one which ought to be modeled in our F-16 and one that we're most familiar, needs to become a dynamic layer positioned in the same coordinates as the reflective glass above the glareshield on the gunsight/HUD itself. But you guys already know that. :-)

BTW, seeing all these images of the plane, when do the beta testers actually get a hold of it. Isn't it about time to get a little more input??

Correct! INS is the alignment with the data at point of Longtitude and latitude positioning and so on, also with more of the database an avionics.

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The problem is that FSX exaggerates that effect totally. Extend the air brakes and you are staring at your HUD from a 10 inches. Do a 0 G-load, max burner extension and your view point moves to the COG of the aircraft. We need to tweak FSX in that aspect. Always hard to do as it wrecks your Super Cub flight the day after. Fighter pilots have superb seats, seat belts and thick necks. Cub Pilots have weak spines and a bit of linen to sit on.

excuse me for cutting in here,I might have missunderstood this paragraph but I did away with the head movement altogether by modifying these lines in the configeration files

[DynamicHeadMovement]

LonAccelOnHeadLon=-0.00000

LonAccelOnHeadPitch=-0.00000

RollAccelOnHeadLat=0.00000

YawAccelOnHeadLat=-0.00000

RollAccelOnHeadRoll=0.00000

from my limited knowledge of what changes what,is it possable that numbers higher than 0 but lower than original (I lost the original values) would lesson the exagerated head movements?

Randy

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Correct! INS is the alignment with the data at point of Longtitude and latitude positioning and so on, also with more of the database an avionics.

That is Correct that INS it self has nothing to do with the HUD but in this Doc is an explanation of the Inertial reference system which works on base of Gyros and so and so far that the other gentlemen here get an idea of what this is since in the fore going post was the explanation that the HUD is caculated in relation to the Aircraft Position through Gyros etc nothing more i don´t say that this is all about the HUD

Regards

Kman

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  • Aerosoft
I think Mathjis is saying you can certainly tweak those variables, though its going to diminish the effect for a tammer beast, such as the cub.

Yes indeed, we can switch it OFF for an aircraft or reduce it in the FSX.cfg. I just posted another message about that (before I seen that). I propose to move this discussion to that location: http://www.forum.aerosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=14151

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That is Correct that INS it self has nothing to do with the HUD but in this Doc is an explanation of the Inertial reference system which works on base of Gyros and so and so far that the other gentlemen here get an idea of what this is since in the fore going post was the explanation that the HUD is calculated in relation to the Aircraft Position through Gyros etc nothing more i don´t say that this is all about the HUD

Regards

Kman

From my understanding, the gyros which drive the INS positioning system have nothing to do with the gyros that allow bank and pitch angle to be displayed on the HUD, or any other function of the HUD. The gyros on the INS system need to be gimbaled and then released (reset to known coordinates) while stationary in most cases, but I think that there are ways to do this in the air as well if coordinated with a GPS system.

That's my opinion. I could be wrong as I haven't flown an INS system in some time, particularly not the new ones IF there are any (GPS being much more accurate).

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That is Correct that INS it self has nothing to do with the HUD but in this Doc is an explanation of the Inertial reference system which works on base of Gyros and so and so far that the other gentlemen here get an idea of what this is since in the fore going post was the explanation that the HUD is caculated in relation to the Aircraft Position through Gyros etc nothing more i don´t say that this is all about the HUD

Regards

Kman

I dont say your completely wrong however i have to agree with Deacon, sure there are things about the gyro, though its not inmediately based on the HUD.

So like i said your both true!

And Deacon, sure a lot has changed but not that much LOL!

grtz

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And Deacon, sure a lot has changed but not that much LOL!

grtz

Ah, you're too kind! :-)

BTW, if any of you are able to get the History Channel, you might want to check out the Dec. 6th or 7th Dogfights episode on the USS Midway's 1972 cruise. 8) 8)

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Ah, you're too kind! :-)

BTW, if any of you are able to get the History Channel, you might want to check out the Dec. 6th or 7th Dogfights episode on the USS Midway's 1972 cruise. 8) 8)

Damn Deacon, I cannot get that, any web streams available you think?

best

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Damn Deacon, I cannot get that, any web streams available you think?

best

Darn, nope dont have that, but just as DAG said, maybe there is a link please!!

best regards

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Just got the final scheduling. Friday, December 7th, 2007, at 2300 EST on the History Channel.

I'm sure that over time a stream or ability to purchase the DVD will show up.

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