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Unfortunately LNAV still broken..

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HI all,

 

I had time today to try the 1.0.3 update of the CRJ after much anticipation. To my disappointment (and I don't like to say that), the LNAV is not working correctly. I couldn't fly the SID and STAR without taking over to HDG mode. I identify the following issues:

 

1) The LNAV was missing points and doing turns without meaning during the SID and STAR. For example turns 90 degrees inbound a leg. I had to take to HDG mode to stop it.

2) There was drawn lines in the display map display that did not make sense. For example a direct line from the end of the SID to the starting airport, and a semi-infinate line from one of the waypoitns 90 degrees of course. These was not visible on the LEGS page, everything there seemed right.

3) The Autopilot bank rate over a waypoint at cruise is far too high. I could imagine everyone on board getting scared if the AP was banking so much an fast over a waypoint.

4) The general 'feeling' I have with the AP, is that it makes the plane movement in bank and pitch too 'robotic'. It does not seem to have an aerodynamic feeling on turns and turbulence. Seems like it follows rails.

 

Overall I am very disappointed with the CRJ and I have to hangar it again. I really don't like thet situation and I would prefer it to work perfect, as I want to fly it. However 5 months after its release, and stil not being able to do a proper flight is too annoying. This is the flightplan that I tried from LSGG to EDDF:

 

KONI4J KONIL Z63 SOSAL UN871 DITON T163 XINLA DCT XOPMO DCT ADNIS DCT PSA PSA2G

 

Please, I would like to get a support over these problems, and please tell me how I can make this flight flawlessly. Is it possible?

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Same for me. It's flying like drunk cat. Perfect version IMHO was 1004. Now flying on HDG ;-) LOL Attached my SID EDDH procedure

Przechwytywanie.JPG

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I made this topic to get some support. Can I expect that the following days? Currently CRJ is unable to make a proper flight.

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I get same problems with LNAV and can ruin a flight, most of the time I shadow the route with HDG mode ready to switch to that if the CRJ starts to veer off route. Out of curiosity I sometimes just leave it veer off to see if there is any logic to what is happening and most of the time the CRJ just keeps flying off on a tangent, but one flight, it went off route on a 90 degree angle for about 5 minutes, then banked left to fly back to the route in the direction I had just flown and then banked 90 degrees again to join the route as if nothing had happened. This week, a flight went totally wrong and the CRJ went off route, when I fathomed out what was happening, it had somehow selected the departure airport as my next waypoint despite being about 400 miles away from it and many other waypoints in between the point of departure. I could find no reason in the flighplan as to why it should have done that. Sometimes I think there is some logic or coding in the FMS that is confusing it as if there is some hidden modes etc which somehow get activated. Even programming the FMS can be hit and miss, when inputting a route, a waypoint can show up as not found or not in database and then eventually accept it after a few tries, but if I enter it into the LEGs page as a workaround, it accepts it everytime. And then sometimes, I find, when checking the flight plan, a section of the flight plan can have repeated itself which then has to be removed.

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Ok, one more report of how this airplane is not capable of performing what it advertises. The thing is that we paid for a working product and the product is not working. What happens now? We wait for more months ?

 

Still waiting developer support to my question.

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Well according to some the LNAV issue was resolved. And we surly don't want to rush or pressure anyone on fixing the problems. 2 months between one update and 1 month between the other is not enough time to fix the problems. I stopped flying the CRJ again because I get tired my of it trying to chase the flight path. Tell your passengers to hold on tight when your about to hit a turn on the flight path. If it's not turning to early and than over correcting to get back on course. As long as your route is straight than your fine.

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1 hour ago, Wise87 said:

Well according to some the LNAV issue was resolved. And we surly don't want to rush or pressure anyone on fixing the problems. 2 months between one update and 1 month between the other is not enough time to fix the problems. I stopped flying the CRJ again because I get tired my of it trying to chase the flight path. Tell your passengers to hold on tight when your about to hit a turn on the flight path. If it's not turning to early and than over correcting to get back on course. As long as your route is straight than your fine.

 

You have to be joking to suggest to fly flightplans on HDG mode.

 

Where exactly did we signed to pay for a product still in development? 4 months after public release and the LNAV is not working. I agree that it needs more months of testing. However, I'm not willing to participate to a beta. I paid for a working product. For that reason I have now requested a refund.

 

Regarding the reports that the LNAV was resolved, try to fly the route that I posted above to figure out.

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Sorry to be the only one without a problem.  I tried your flightplan today and flew it without a hitch.  The aircraft still overcorrects in tight turns, but it flew the route without any problem in NAV mode.  No extra vectors or lines in my flightplan screen, all the legs were good.  I also checked the flightplan in SimBrief to see if there were any errors, but found none.  If I see a departure with a quick, sharp turn, I make sure that speed mode is set rather low, such as 170-180 knots to make it easier on the autopilot to stay near the route.  Version 1.0.3.0 update

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Winged532, I guess that makes two of us :).  For this aircraft speed profile/control  and proper use of mcp/fma is an essential and fun part of flying aircraft.    Not to say their are some refinement that could occur but this is one of my favorite aircraft now and certainly one of the best 50 bucks spent.  Great flight from kclt to kdca using P3d 4.1, latest airport sceneries for both with full asn wx, sids, stars, approaches.   Flawless in this case.  

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12 hours ago, winged532 said:

I make sure that speed mode is set rather low, such as 170-180 knots to make it easier on the autopilot to stay near the route.  Version 1.0.3.0 update

 

Slowing the plane down to those speeds is unrealistic as you don't have to slow the real plane down that much just to make a turn, even on departure. If I'm at FL300 or above I'm not slowing from .74 just so the plane can make a turn. The CRJ has a tendency to hunt for the flight path before and after a turn. 

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13 hours ago, winged532 said:

Sorry to be the only one without a problem.  I tried your flightplan today and flew it without a hitch.  The aircraft still overcorrects in tight turns, but it flew the route without any problem in NAV mode.  No extra vectors or lines in my flightplan screen, all the legs were good.  I also checked the flightplan in SimBrief to see if there were any errors, but found none.  If I see a departure with a quick, sharp turn, I make sure that speed mode is set rather low, such as 170-180 knots to make it easier on the autopilot to stay near the route.  Version 1.0.3.0 update

 Could you tell me when you enabled the autopilot after takeoff? I enabled it at around 1000 ft AGL and the autopilot wasn't able to take the right hand turn to the east. It missed not only the first but the rest of the SID waypoints. The STAR arrival to rwy 25R was also unable to follow successfully.

 

Besides, how you define "stay near the route"? The LNAV should precisely follow the route in a CRJ. Otherwise it's not considered a good simulation.

 

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)n the runway prior to takeoff, set the speed to 170knots in the MCP.  Throttles to TOGA,  set NAV on the MCP, rotate, gear up, clean flaps, click on SPEED on the MCP, click on Autopilot, still about 1.5 miles from the first waypoint of the SID, about 500 feet above ground. check on Speed setting to make sure it is still on 170 knots when the first turn is begun.  half way through the turn, set speed to 200 knots.  You have to initiate the autopilot rather quickly because of the closeness of the first waypoint.  In real life the pilot would initiate the turn manually upon positive rate of climb and gear-up.  Clean up the flaps, etc. and when stable, then actuate the autopilot.  Remember, as Pilot in Charge you always stay ahead of the aircraft,  

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2 hours ago, winged532 said:

)n the runway prior to takeoff, set the speed to 170knots in the MCP.  Throttles to TOGA,  set NAV on the MCP, rotate, gear up, clean flaps, click on SPEED on the MCP, click on Autopilot, still about 1.5 miles from the first waypoint of the SID, about 500 feet above ground. check on Speed setting to make sure it is still on 170 knots when the first turn is begun.  half way through the turn, set speed to 200 knots.  You have to initiate the autopilot rather quickly because of the closeness of the first waypoint.  In real life the pilot would initiate the turn manually upon positive rate of climb and gear-up.  Clean up the flaps, etc. and when stable, then actuate the autopilot.  Remember, as Pilot in Charge you always stay ahead of the aircraft,  

 

So, you suggest that if I don't fly faster than 170kts before the turn, it will successfully follow the SID. What about the STARS issue? I wasn't going faster than 250kts. Anyways I want it to work so I'll give this flight one more try and report back in Tuesday when I'm home again.

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lfikratis, upon reading the information for LSGG departures, you will find some rather strict departure instructions for the KONI4J SID.  It is only available for aircraft smaller than a B737-700, including the A318,A319, and the A320 or smaller.  For RWY 23,The departure climb is as follows:

Take-off up to 2900 feet  - Take-off power;

                                           Climb at V2 + 10knt to 20knt or climb gradient limitation

 2900-4400 feet                  Climb power;

                                            Climb at V2 + 10knt to 20knt  (In my simulation with 72 passengers, 3000 lbs cargo and 7800 lbs fuel, V2 + 20knts = 171 knots)

Above 4400 feet                  ACFT clean-up and acceleration to climb speed.

 

The SID also advises to begin your initial turn when passing 1900 feet which is about 500 feet above ground, and using a minimum bank angle of 25 degrees!

 

 

for Wise87:  I think you misunderstood my meaning when I mentioned 170 knots in the above post.  This only applies to departure procedures of the KONI4J type where the initial waypoint is very close to the airport and there is a very sharp turn after this waypoint.  And, as you can see above, the LSGG departure guidelines recognize this and limit your initial speed so you can follow the strict noise abatement guidelines.  

I am certainly not an expert on any  of this, but a little research becomes pretty informative for all future flights.

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Winged532, you are right on...    Things happen fast on takeoff and on a pc simmulator without a good fcp (flight control panel), throttle quadrant, good scan the climb profile can quickly off track.  In one rw airline speed mode is almost always selected right after wheels up,  lateral guidence by 400 feet, autopilot on (or continue to hand fly following the flight director above 600 feet, rebug speed to 200kts by 1000ft unless the sid specifies otherwise.   

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Hello again and merry Christmas to everyone,

 

I downloaded the 1.0.3.0 one more time, done a clean re-installed and did again this flight as per winged532 suggestions. Unfortunately, the SID is not performed correctly by the autopilot. I stayed at 164-165 kts for this experiment flight, and here are some screenshots of the Navigation screen of how the LNAV behaves after the north-east turn of the SID departure KONI4J at LSGG. Also, notice the direct line from the airport to the end of the SID and the semi-infite drawn line over SOSAL waypoint, that I mentioned on my first post:

 

Mebi7C6.jpg

 

2R4kpKO.jpg

 

I4tPFSO.jpg

 

JhJfGbe.jpg

 

kzxkPlL.jpg

 

gl95r0f.jpg

 

You can clearly see that the LNAV is missing  the second leg of the SID and the waypoint GG603. No matter how I love the CRJ and I want to perform many flights with it, these problems make the simulation unreliable for me to fly.

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Update. I did it one more time, and deleted the DIR KONIG entry on the LEGS 1 page. This time, I managed to not lose the second leg of the SID. It wasn't a smooth turn, but at least it didn't missed the leg. I will do some more tests after this to see if I can replicate.

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Unfortunately the problem is still there on my next flight. While the SID was performed correctly, the LNAV could not follow the base leg. It did a 360 degree and I had to take over to HDG mode as there was no sense on the airplane's movement. You can see the screens below:

 

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t3eJZiE.jpg

 

Three more problems that I observed:

 

1) When the aircraft is about to reach cruise altitude, being climbing on SPD mode, it stops climbing a few hundred feet below the cruise level, unable to climb more. There is enough thrust to climb and you can see that on the following screen. The aircraft has excess speed but the climb rate does not increase. This is just a screenshot, and you may think that this +200ft/min rate will make it reach cruise level, but this is not what happens. The climb rate keeps flucuating being plus and minus, keeping the airplane nearly level while the speed is still in excess. I have to enter V/S mode to force the plane to reach cruise level.

 

zhMEIff.jpg

 

2) The aircraft banks a lot in cruise, trying to follow the course. I attach two examples of this during my last test flight. Even while the 1/2 bank mode is active, the aicraft banks more like a fighter jet than a commercial airliner at 34,000 feet.

 

s4sqLaM.jpg

 

6t9vk0E.jpg

 

3) The ailerons move constantly to keep the aircraft on track, but on an unnatural, not realistic way. You can see that when on wing view. They keep flickering many times per second and this does not reminds a real surface movement. Also the whole aircraft as I said on my first post, is not moving aerodynamically but rather than turning in rails. There is certainly not a fluid movement on how the aircraft banks while on autopilot mode. On contrary, when hand flown, the plane move much more like a real aircraft.

 

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Fascinating thread! Ifikratis, please explain in detailed step-by-step account just how you are entering the route into the FMC.  I have tried several methods to reproduce your results, but no matter how I enter the route I cannot duplicate the route as you show it.

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3 hours ago, winged532 said:

Fascinating thread! Ifikratis, please explain in detailed step-by-step account just how you are entering the route into the FMC.  I have tried several methods to reproduce your results, but no matter how I enter the route I cannot duplicate the route as you show it.

 

Wingedd532, if you are refering to the route above, with the "triangle" on the SID, that was because of a DCT entry to the SID last waypoint, generated by the FMS after SID selecion. I manually deleted that one as I mention on post after that. The semi-infinate line, I have no idea why is there, but luckily it didn't affected the flight. But that was not the most serious problem. So, don't stick to this feature. Regarding of how I enter the route, the route is entered as per manual instructions. I have tried both manual and automatic routes (via SimBrief). There is nothing wrong with how I enter the route. In the flightplan page of the FMS, I enter waypoints and airways as per manual instructions (waypoints on the right, airways on the left). Check the LEGS page after for possible gaps etc.. I am not new to this hobbie and nothing is wrong with the FMS entries. As you see also on my latest test flight, the route is drawn correctly. Its the CRJ that flies the routes wrong. The legs are displayed fine as you can see. The plane is following all legs correctly, and at some point it just goes wrong. I can't give you better proof than these images. Also, the banking in cruise as I said, is unacceptable, completely unrealistic roll angles. Nothing wrong with my installation, nothing wrong with how I enter the route. Also, the plane does not have aerodynamic response. The ailerons are flickering during flight. Check your wing views. That's a lot of issues for a public released add-on.

 

 

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OK, i thought the route anomolies were the problem. I can understand your concerns with the bank angle, etc., and I hope these things are cleared up too.  I have also had similar problems to yours.

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....me two and uninstall was the only option to protect my nerves :wacko:

flys like a falcon on autopilot!!

 

Bruno

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On ‎21‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 12:12 AM, Ifikratis said:

(...) I have now requested a refund. (...)

 

+1   :mellow:

 

On a more positive note, I picked the Digital Aviation Piper Cheyenne box from the Aerosoft warehouse deals, and I am really happy with that plane (or should I say, with the Cheyenne collection ...)

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On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 9:52 AM, winged532 said:

)n the runway prior to takeoff, set the speed to 170knots in the MCP.  Throttles to TOGA,  set NAV on the MCP, rotate, gear up, clean flaps, click on SPEED on the MCP, click on Autopilot, still about 1.5 miles from the first waypoint of the SID, about 500 feet above ground. check on Speed setting to make sure it is still on 170 knots when the first turn is begun.  half way through the turn, set speed to 200 knots.  You have to initiate the autopilot rather quickly because of the closeness of the first waypoint.  In real life the pilot would initiate the turn manually upon positive rate of climb and gear-up.  Clean up the flaps, etc. and when stable, then actuate the autopilot.  Remember, as Pilot in Charge you always stay ahead of the aircraft,  

 

1. "In real life" a pilot would not initiate a turn a gear up... 400' is usually a minimum alt for a turn. UNLESS the SID specifically calls for an immediate turn after departure and there are not many.  KDCA is one taking off to the north.

 

2. Airlines and operating manuals have minimum altitudes in which the autopilot can or must be connected or disconnected, and all the airlines I've worked at, that altitude is long before clean up speeds and altitudes.

 

 

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