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CRJ Real World Tips/Techniques


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13 hours ago, Propane said:

 

It's fairly smooth honestly, I have never seen it do anything crazy even going from V2+12 to 290kts. The 'crazy' stuff could be something in DES mode, if you have set a speed that is too low to reach in your current configuration (so basically, where a B737 or so would give you the message DRAG REQUIRED) the CRJ will enter a pitch hold submode. Some pilots may not be aware of this if they rarely use it.

 

Only up to 290 in the climb? Never done a CDO I see :lol:

 

Disclaimer: 900 only here. 

 

I would add that while SPD mode can be smooth, it's seems to work better at lower speeds. I generally use it up to 250kts, then will use VS afterwards. 

 

Some random numbers I'll throw out there. When climbing through 10,000 and wanting to accelerate to 290, put the airplane into VS and dial in 1000FPM. If you're light, once you reach 290, 16-1700FPM should hold it. If you're heavy, 1500FPM might work. By the time you need to transition to .74 Mach, you'll probably be 1000FPM or less. Add 300FPM to whatever your climb rate was holding 290kts and it should hold .74. Ballpark numbers all around there and you'll need to monitor them. Obviously affected by ISA too. 

 

Fun tidbit worth adding, the CRJ wing likes to go fast. You'll climb far quicker doing 290kts than 250. Somedays 320kts/.77mach seems like it gets you altitude even quicker also. 

 

While descending, remember to the 11 at 11 rule. Basically hit 11,000ft at idle power, 290kts, at 1100FPM, and you'll be 250kts at 10,000 nearly every time. 

 

We never use SPD mode above 10,000. Idle thrust Mach .77 descent out of FL340 is quite violent. We just use VS and the DIR INTC page of the FMS for our descents. If people are curious I'll write up exactly how we do that. It's kind of a weird guess and check combo done in unison with the snowflake. Descend via arrivals are fun :rolleyes:

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13 minutes ago, Propane said:

 

EASA FTL here, and a pretty decent crewplanning department ;) . Very few overnights, so home nearly every night and shortest overnight rest 10 hours. Doing 280/.77 auto switchover is fast enough for me most of the time :D. Also, arrivals and departures are a bit different here then in the US as far as I know, so different flying styles. I come from an all manual everything turboprop so I don't bother too much with the FMS advisory VNAV, I have my own VNAV baked in and it's usually more flexible and takes shortcuts and speed reductions into account :P .

 

When you're on duty all night and are getting 4 hours of sleep at the hotel, those extra 30 knots do wonders for morale. 

 

Until NY approach turns you 30° degrees off course and slows you to 250 at FL220 for spacing. 

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vor 2 Stunden , Brendan154 sagte:

We just use VS and the DIR INTC page of the FMS for our descents. If people are curious I'll write up exactly how we do that. 

 

I certainly am !!

 

Great thread and info.

 

Mike

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1 hour ago, Propane said:

Edit: Speaking about those speeds, if you want to skip at least one button push (ask any pilot, workload management is important :P )... Just set 280KIAS after climbing through 10.000 and forget about it. At switchover point of FL316/31.600ft that will translate into ~M.77 which will let you climb up to FL410 if weight and atmospheric conditions allow. 

 

But... but... then my speed bug isn't perfectly synchronized to M.77.

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18 minutes ago, Mikealpha said:

 

I certainly am !!

 

Great thread and info.

 

Mike

 

General disclaimer, I am going to be talking about how we do a "descend via" arrival in the United States. This is an arrival with a sequence of waypoints often with airspeed and altitude restrictions. The complicated part of this is that they are not all just "Cross FIX at ALT", rather they are "Cross FIX between ALT1 and ALT2, at 290kts". 

 

So how do we do that in the CRJ? Well, it is a bit more complicated than a Boeing or Airbus product. The CRJ series technically doesn't have VNAV (I am lying, but I will qualify that in a second though). We have advisory VNAV which is a very basic descent profile that the FMS generates based on entered crossing restrictions. I want to explain a bit of how it does this. To illustrate, lets go look at an arrival. 

 

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1708/00253VANZE.PDF

This is the VANZE1 RNAV arrival into Memphis, TN.

 

Imagine you are the FMS. You have a desired descent angle which is 3.0 degrees. This is of course editable in the VNAV page 3/3 of the FMS. 3.0 works fairly well though and unless there is a massive tailwind will allow you to descend at near idle thrust maintaining profiled speeds. The way that the FMS builds the descent path goes as follows. Start at the end of the arrival with the first hard altitude (which is to say a restriction that isn't "at or above/below/between). On the VANZE arrival, that is HEXIN. Now, the FMS will draw backwards up the arrival a path of 3.0 degrees. At each waypoint it logic checks to see if you meet whatever restriction is entered in the LEGS page (it is important to note, before you fly any arrival like this you must manually verify each altitude at each fix is correct by cross referencing the chart). Now, if it fails this logic check and the 3.0 degree angle doesn't meet the proceeding restriction, then it will adjust the angle such that it does. So the result is you may see any angle of 2.8 or 3.2 on the LEGS page between waypoints to signify you will need an adjusted descent rate for that section of the arrival. The physical manifestation of all this is the white snowflake which appears on the PFD where the glideslope appears for the ILS. Following the snowflake will keep you within all restrictions of the arrival. 

 

If you are still with me, good job. That isn't the hardest part though.

 

We need to now mention a few things about our friend, the snowflake. 

1. It doesn't build deceleration stages like the 737 or A320. All it is concerned about it altitudes. So if the arrival requires you to decelerate to, say, 210KTS, then you must plan that into your descent on your own. 

2. It doesn't account for your TAS changing as you descend. Hence, while one VS may have been working at a higher altitude, you will need a lower one as the descent progresses. Remember, we are attaching a VS to an angle. We are still doing a 3.0 degree descent, but much like the VS of a CRJ on a 3.0 ILS will be greater than that of a C172 doing the same approach because of the speed difference, the higher true airspeed for a given indicated airspeed at altitude will require a greater VS. 

 

*aerodynamics side note (skip if you want): a swept wing high altitude jet like the CRJ makes a lot of drag at higher altitudes going fast (drag = speed^2), so the higher vertical speed required for a 3.0 degree descent out of FL340 actually compliments this aerodynamic principal quite well. In my experience, the CRJ can easily do 3000FPM out of the high flight levels without accelerating, but below 20,000 often times it is hard to descend at more than 2,000FPM.

 

3. You cannot couple the autopilot to our friend the snowflake. The snowflake is a function of an angle. No where can we select a 3.0 flight path angle on FCP. 10/10 engineering. Even worse, the CRJ doesn't share with you what VS its currently using to compute the snowflakes rate of descent. I have to imagine this number totally exists somewhere within the Rockwell Collins avionics, but they decided to not tell us. So this can lead to you just chasing it with the VS wheel in hopes you are ballparking it correctly. There is however, a better way.

 

*side note number 2: there are a few CRJs flying that actually have a VNAV button on the FCP. Guess what it does. It couples the snowflake to the autopilot. They're lucky. None of my companies airplanes have this button though, and I don't think that the AS CRJ7/9 has it either. So as near as I can tell, it doesn't exist.

 

If you've been reading this up till now, I need to issue an apology. Everything we just talked about it kind of irrelevant because we don't actually use the snowflake in day to day operations. At least, most of us don't. I would consider it secondary descent profile information. Enough theory then, how do we actually do this?

 

Good old airmenship and the DIR INTC page. The DIR INTC page is extremely useful for a singular reason. It will tell you the VS required to cross FIX at ALT, based on what you put on the LEGS page. A simple example to start, shall we.

 

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1708/00264SKETR.PDF

Let's say ATC instructs us to cross SHONN at 11,000ft. We will enter that restriction into the LEGS page (because this is an EXPECT altitude, it will not have loaded when we load the arrival). Now, execute the change and switch over to the DIR INTC page. You will see the SHONN, an arrow pointing down, and a vertical speed. 11,000 should be in small font right above the VS. That is the VS required to cross SHONN at 11,000 based on your current altitude. There will also be your current angle from present position directly to SHONN. To cross SHONN at 11,000, dial in 11,000 into the FCP, wait for the angle to read 3.0 (or less, I like to descend a 2.5 sometimes just to make the ride a bit smoother and give me more options with a bit of power in on the descent), and start descending at the VS shown on the SHONN line of the DIR INTC page. I should note, if you do what I do and start down at an angle <3.0, you will never see the snowflake because you have never intercepted the 3.0 degree path created by the FMS which the snowflake obviously represents. 

 

Same situation, same arrival, same crossing restriction at SHONN, but now ATC asks you to cross SHONN at 250kts. Now you must slow down and go down. This is not one of the strong suits of the CRJ. In level flight, the thing will decelerate quite rapidly. It won't while descending though and in all honesty, the flight spoilers aren't too stellar slowing the bird down. Remember how I said that the snowflake doesn't build in deceleration legs, thats on you, the pilot! The only difference in our descent planning we will need to make is that we are going to need a level segment in order to decelerate. As we approach a 3.0 degree descent towards SHONN using the DIR INTC page, start down a bit early. Maybe at 2.8, however, add approximately 100 or 200FPM to the required rate of descent. This will ensure that we get to 11,000 a bit before SHONN and have enough time to decelerate to 250kts.

 

The reason I wanted us to go through that example is so that we can now go to a more complicated one. Lets go back to the VANZE arrival into MEM that I linked to earlier, back at the top of this increasingly long essay.

 

Pretend we are cleared for this arrival and we are starting it at the TALLO transition, landing South (18L/C/R). The restrictions are all in the LEGS page and ATC clears us to descend via the arrival. Great. The first crossing restriction is FASON at or above FL240. That is pretty easy. The next one is CRAMM at or below FL230, and VANZE has the same restriction. So what should we do? 

 

The honest answer is make it up as you go. You need a mental picture of what the entire arrival looks like in terms of vertical profile, but in reality you can't keep track of every set of restrictions in your head. There are way too many! So just worry about the next four, or so. 

 

FASON FL240A

dist 37

CRAMM FL230B

dist 10

VANZE FL230B

dist 9

MASHH 16000/14000

 

Hypothetically, we cross both CRAMM and VANZE at FL230, are we going to be able to go from VANZE to MASHH and descend to 16,000ft to make the top of the gate? Probably not. Here it what I would do. Go look at your DIR INTC page. Look at the VS required for each waypoint. I am not sure exactly which altitude it will show for MASHH on the DIR INTC page, but it'll either be 16 or 14,000. It will sometimes change based on the arrival and profile and that is wayyy beyond what we are talking about here today. We have done enough pseudo coding of the airplane's avionics today. We need to now pick a vertical speed that will hit all the restrictions. Ideally you want something less than the VS to cross FASON, and greater than the VS to cross CRAMM. This will ensure you can cross FASON above 240, and CRAMM below 230. More than likely, that VS required to cross MASHH at 16,000. So that is probably the one you want to use. Wait until you are 3.0 degrees from MASHH and start down at that VS, assuming that VS is less than the VS for FASON and greater than that for CRAMM. If it doesn't meet those requirements, then you'll need to adjust it until it does. 

 

Lets say we cross FASON above 240 successfully. We can now start thinking about the waypoint after MASHH. 

 

CRAMM FL230B

dist 10

VANZE FL230B

dist 9

MASHH 16000/14000

dist 22 (skip w/ turn at HLI, no crossing restriction there)

LARUE 12000/10000

 

Run the same algorithm in your head. You need to select a VS that will comply with all of the above. Rinse, repeat, until you hit the bottom of the arrival. And make sure you are complying with speed restrictions too. If that example was a little hard to follow I understand.

 

The summary to all this: if you are flying an arrival with multiple crossing restrictions to hit, use the DIR INTC and your brain to select a descent rate that will comply with as much restrictions as you can. Look forward and ensure to not box yourself in a corner where you have to do an impossible rate of descent to make a restriction. Constantly be monitoring and adjusting. 

 

The snowflake is a good piece of supplementary information and if you're doing the above procedure correctly, you'll end up following it all the way down usually. It is important to understand the limitation of the system, such as no accounting for speed restrictions. For this, there is no substitute for human interaction and mental processing during these procedures. There is no simple way either, rather just practicing and engaging your brain.

 

This is a huge pain. The CRJ avionics suite was built in the early 90s, well before any of these complicated RNAV procedures. We are using 25 year old tools to solve a modern day problem. This is genuinely the hardest thing to do in the CRJ and will make you feel like you've done some mental gymnastics. And once you get good at it, its very satisfying. Jumping back into the NGX or Airbus after this will make life seem pathetically easy.

 

If any of that needs clarification, I will be happy to help.

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I have already completed several flights between ASE DEN and real weather. In KDEN is planned an RNAV Y Approach Rwy 35L  with several descend sections. Since the TOD does not appear or is too late, ich must descend the first leg with VS and green circle control. After passing TOD (do not know what this is then based), the snowflake shows obviously not really plausible values.

So i fly almost completely with VS and orientation on the green circle.

Is certainly not perfect, also makes a lot of work, but i've still landed them safely.

 

Is this way as an alternative to a real possibility? An further question, in published papers i can see, that at beginn of final approach the airplane is full configurated for an NPA. In DEN i would have to full configurated over CELBI, means Vapp, landing flaps.?!

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On 8/5/2017 at 6:25 AM, Astro_Liam said:

i was wondering the same. I then remembered I saw an episode of Air Crash/Mayday where one crash was caused by a reverser being deployed mid flight. Maybe it has something to do with that

You got it. To protect against inadvertent reverser deployments. And they cannot be inadvertently be deployed when they aren't armed. :)

So as soon as they're not needed, (i.e. airborne, after takeoff), they are disarmed. And then re armed again, during the landing checklist. 

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3 hours ago, Brendan154 said:

If any of that needs clarification, I will be happy to help.

 

Brendan,

 

I don't post much, but that has to be one of the most informative posts I've read in quite a long time.  So I felt it necessary to chime in and give a big thank you for taking the time to write it out.

 

Thanks,

Rob

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vor 20 Stunden , Brendan154 sagte:

If any of that needs clarification, I will be happy to help.

 

big thanks for the very detailed info and explanation.  Learning such things is what flight simulation is all about for me. Not just pressing VNAV buttons in a Boebus and watch :)

 

Mike

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1 hour ago, Propane said:

 

Set flight director to TO / TO mode

 

 

 

Thanks!

Perhaps I've lost my reading skills during vacation, but I can't figure out how to set TO/TO on the FD. Also curious on how to enable ET on the clocks, is it just a single click on ET?

 

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1 hour ago, JowlStc said:

 

Thanks!

Perhaps I've lost my reading skills during vacation, but I can't figure out how to set TO/TO on the FD. Also curious on how to enable ET on the clocks, is it just a single click on ET?

 

Please login to display this image.

 

The TOGA button is location on the throttle knobs. Also, regarding the functions of the Chronometer, Refer to page 69 in Pt. 2 of the AOM should provide the answers you seek.

 

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1 hour ago, Propane said:  

Set flight director to TO / TO mode

 

 

 

Thanks!

Perhaps I've lost my reading skills during vacation, but I can't figure out how to set TO/TO on the FD. Also curious on how to enable ET on the clocks, is it just a single click on ET?

 

 

For the ET, click on the ET button once. It will go into a standby mode and start calculating elapsed time on takeoff when the main wheels leave the ground.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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11 minutes ago, Chris Smith said:

This is an awesome thread! What sorts of cruise machs do you use in the real world? 

 

.77 Mach for normal flights. 

 

.80 sometimes into certain stations.

 

.82 if we have spare gas/running really late/go home day. 

 

300kts indicated if you never make it to Mach numbers. 

 

Just for fun:

Climb: 250/290/.74

Highspeed Climb: 250/320/.77

Descent: .77 (or cruise mach)/290

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1 minute ago, Brendan154 said:

 

.80 sometimes into certain stations.

 

.82 if we have spare gas/running really late/go home day. 

 

 

  • What certain stations are those? LOL 
  • And for your second point, the .82 is really when you are running late right? When is spare gas a problem?! LOL
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Definitely some informative posts on managing descents and approaches, thanks CRJisBAE and Brendan154!

 

The concern about thrust inadvertent thrust reverser deployment sorta makes sense, though it seems like other aircraft use weight on wheels sensors for that safety check?

 

Some other things that have come to mind...

 

- Do you commonly use flex / derated thrust on takeoff?  If so, I assume those numbers are generated for you from dispatch or an EFB application (not like a rule of thumb or something)?

- Are ground power / air used often?  Or might you just stay on APU for a short turn / at an out station?

- Other than system failures, is there any reason that manual bleed management would be used?

- what do typical CoG numbers look like?

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On 8/5/2017 at 1:39 PM, CRJisBAE said:

There are times where I don't feel like riding the V/S knob the whole way down the descent so instead I'll just slow to the assigned speed and use SPEED mode to come down. There are no specific thrust settings I use when I do this. If I want a shallow descent, I pull them back a little. The more steep of a descent I want, the more I pull the thrust levers back. As with any descent in the CRJ, make sure you get that power back in once you level off!)

 

A little trick you can do for those times where ATC leaves you way high and dry and you need to get down quickly. 320-330kts (250kts below 10), SPEED mode, thrust idle, speedbrakes full out, then hold on tight (lol). (Again...make sure you stow the speedbrakes and get the power back in on the level off! Otherwise you will experience CRJ fun times!)

 

I don't know whether to be happy or concerned that my quick duct-tape patch fix way of descending the CRJ is how they do it IRL. I thought it would have a bit more.., finesse and planning lol.

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2 hours ago, imemyself said:

Definitely some informative posts on managing descents and approaches, thanks CRJisBAE and Brendan154!

 

The concern about thrust inadvertent thrust reverser deployment sorta makes sense, though it seems like other aircraft use weight on wheels sensors for that safety check?

 

Some other things that have come to mind...

 

- Do you commonly use flex / derated thrust on takeoff?  If so, I assume those numbers are generated for you from dispatch or an EFB application (not like a rule of thumb or something)?

- Are ground power / air used often?  Or might you just stay on APU for a short turn / at an out station?

- Other than system failures, is there any reason that manual bleed management would be used?

- what do typical CoG numbers look like?

 

In order here...

 

Yes, we Flex basically all the time. We won't flex if:

Anti Skip Inop

Anti Ice Required for T/O

Contamined Runway

Downdrafts/Windshear

 

We will turn off the APU if they connect ground power on a turn. Very rarely will we see ground air on a turn. If we think we need the APU to keep the cabin at a reasonable temp, it stays on. The APU is

a single stage centrifugal compressor; it's much more simple and durable than the turbines in the engines and can be

started and stopped with greater frequency without the worry of damage. In fact, running the APU for long periods of time is actually more damaging than periodic shut down and restarts. 

 

[random bonus aside]

APU startup and shutdown procedure:

 

Press PWR FUEL, verify DIGS (on ED2):

DOOR open (APU door open)

IN BITE (APU IN BITE status message)

GAUGES (RPM and EGT indications appear)

SOV (APU SOV OPEN status message appears)

One APU IN BITE status message disappears, press the START STOP switch. 

At 99% RPM + 2 seconds, the APU aid available. 

 

If you start it in the air, the APU door wont open until you press the START STOP switch. This is normal to prevent windmilling at a critical RPM where it's not rotating quickly enough to adequately self lubricate. 

 

Shutdown, start by pressing the START STOP switch. 

Once the RPM winds down, wait till the APU door closes on ED2, then press the PWR FUEL switch. 

[/random bonus aside]

 

Only time in normal ops that I've had to put the bleeds in Manual mode is taxiing in single engine, then starting the APU. The Air Cond System Controller (ACSC) gets confused if you shut down an engine before the APU is running and won't automatically switch the packs to the APU. The order it's expecting is:

engines start

APU off

APU on

engines off

any disruption there and it gets confused. If you're taxiing in and decide to go single engine before starting the APU (please don't if it's summer), the ACSC won't automatically switch the packs to the APU when you start it. The rememdy is to go to Manual Mode, open the ISOL valve, rotate to APU on the source knob, wait for them to transfer, then put them back to BOTH ENG (I think? It's the 12 o'clock position) and ISOL closed, then mode switch to AUTO. This'll reset the system controller and prioritize the bleeds correctly. 

 

For CoG I've seen everything from 16.0 to 24.5 %Mac. On average, maybe 18.0? Just kinda guessing. Sorry I don't have a better answer there. 

 

Hope that answers your questions!

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Question.

 

At night do you use the nose landing light to taxi as well as the taxi/recog?

In P3Dv4 seems to illuminate the taxiway a little better.

 

Scott

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Regarding APU use on the ramp. Just an observation as a regular passenger on CRJs (twice per month) primarily going in and out of DTW)

 

At the main terminals like DTW, the aircraft arrive at the gate with the APU running, and it remains on for a few minutes after engine shutdown - but once ground power is plugged in, the APU is shut down. Many large airports (especially in Europe) have regulatory restrictions on how long APUs can be run on a ramp because of concerns about noise and air pollution.

 

I rarely see ground air conditioning connected to CRJs. On a warm day, flight attendants will usually ask arriving passengers to close their window shades before deplaning to help keep the cabin from heating up.

 

The only airport where I have seen ground air used on CRJs on a regular basis is Houston, where afternoon temperatures at this time of year are often in the mid 90s (F).

 

At outstations like my home airport KELM, the APU is usually kept running. These flights, (to and from DTW) are "quick turns" - unload the incoming pax and bags, then immediately board the next group of outgoing passengers. Often, the pilots never even leave the flight deck, except to do a quick walk-around inspection.

 

The exception is the last two flights of the day, which arrive in the evening and remain overnight . They plug into external power and shut down the APU. Many airline CRJs are set up so that external power can be used just to power the cabin lights, with everything in the cockpit shut down. In fact, I believe that the pilots close and lock the flight deck door before departing for their overnight hotel.

 

After passengers and crew leave, aircraft cleaners arrive to vacuum and tidy up the cabin, then kill external power when they are done.

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2 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

Regarding APU use on the ramp. Just an observation as a regular passenger on CRJs (twice per month) primarily going in and out of DTW)

 

At the main terminals like DTW, the aircraft arrive at the gate with the APU running, and it remains on for a few minutes after engine shutdown - but once ground power is plugged in, the APU is shut down. Many large airports (especially in Europe) have regulatory restrictions on how long APUs can be run on a ramp because of concerns about noise and air pollution.

 

I rarely see ground air conditioning connected to CRJs. On a warm day, flight attendants will usually ask arriving passengers to close their window shades before deplaning to help keep the cabin from heating up.

 

The only airport where I have seen ground air used on CRJs on a regular basis is Houston, where afternoon temperatures at this time of year are often in the mid 90s (F).

 

At outstations like my home airport KELM, the APU is usually kept running. These flights, (to and from DTW) are "quick turns" - unload the incoming pax and bags, then immediately board the next group of outgoing passengers. Often, the pilots never even leave the flight deck, except to do a quick walk-around inspection.

 

The exception is the last two flights of the day, which arrive in the evening and remain overnight . They plug into external power and shut down the APU. Many airline CRJs are set up so that external power can be used just to power the cabin lights, with everything in the cockpit shut down. In fact, I believe that the pilots close and lock the flight deck door before departing for their overnight hotel.

 

After passengers and crew leave, aircraft cleaners arrive to vacuum and tidy up the cabin, then kill external power when they are done.

At my outfit we leave the App running between turns. Just like you said the shades are close during the summer times and that of course is done by the flight attendants because of heat. If it's an overnight we do leave the external power connected so we can get the plane clean off if maintenance is going to show up later on. If we do write up the plane we just leave it there and they take it from us. 

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Good evening,

 

Please, one question for you very helpful "Real World Pilots" here in the forum :

 

Quite frequently i use to travel between GCRR and GCLP, mainly with BINTER Canarias´ CRJ900/K and they always perform a single engine taxi untill they approach the runway, so i´d like to know how you do it (APU/Bleed-wise), which engine to use for taxiing and if there´s a special procedure/checklist for it. I guess it´s Company SOP dependant but just to get a slight idea on how to do it, as i couldn´t find anything related in the provided documentation.

 

Many thanks in advance :)

 

Regards, Lars

 

 

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